Tier 2 Requirements and Examples Revision

[Ultima_Reality]

Anyway, as I see it, the most direct way to qualify something as being, in fact, a separate spacetime continuum is to have it be explicitly referred to as such, if we are to go down the route of "Separate universes are not inherently timelines unless otherwise stated." Other things can be supporting evidence, but I don't think anything can ever serve as the main body of such an argument; as far as I see, no criterion that cannot also be accomplished in a single spacetime has been suggested (Other than trivial features that aren't very useful to bring up to begin with, like "Time was destroyed" or "Destroyed areas are inaccessible to time travelers").

I have to say I don't really agree with the whole "Being able to physically travel across different areas is proof they are not separate spacetimes," though, since as Agnaa said up there, our current definition of spatiotemporally separate realms still has them be displaced across a 5-D space, so there being some area between universes where you can move around is no counterevidence at all. At least not inherently.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Ultima.

What do the rest of you think? Are you able to reach some form of consensus here please?

 

[KLOL506]

Better ask @DontTalkDT once again then.

 

[PrinceofPein]

, but I don't think anything can ever serve as the main body of such an argument; as far as I see, no criterion that cannot also be accomplished in a single spacetime has been suggested

Correct, thats why we are on them fufilling multiple criteria

(Other than trivial features that aren't very useful to bring up to begin with, like "Time was destroyed" or "Destroyed areas are inaccessible to time travelers").

If there was this, and something else that they meet in the criteria, then they should be able to qualify

have to say I don't really agree with the whole "Being able to physically travel across different areas is proof they are not separate spacetimes," though, since as Agnaa said up there, our current definition of spatiotemporally separate realms still has them be displaced across a 5-D space, so there being some area between universes where you can move around is no counterevidence at all. At least not inherently.

Depending on how it was portrayed, it can be a counter evidence.


Anyway I actually agree with you that thr current list up there has only two strong points, so I will try doing some reading on when two universes can be considered separate space-times.

 

[KingPin0422]

For the "separate spacetimes" thing, that comment from DontTalk that Agnaa posted up there simply says that two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if there are no points in space or time that are in both A and B. Under this definition, timelines that branch off of each other are not, by default, separate spacetimes. Such timelines clearly share not just a single point, but an entire interval of time, that being the timeline that existed before the moment at which they diverged. Sure, you could argue that the original timeline is simply not the same timeline as either of its branches, but then would such timelines even be big enough to qualify for tier 2 in the first place?

 

[PrinceofPein]

For the "separate spacetimes" thing, that comment from DontTalk that Agnaa posted up there simply says that two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if there are no points in space or time that are in both A and B. Under this definition, timelines that branch off of each other are not, by default, separate spacetimes. Such timelines clearly share not just a single point, but an entire interval of time, that being the timeline that existed before the moment at which they diverged. Sure, you could argue that the original timeline is simply not the same timeline as either of its branches, but then would such timelines even be big enough to qualify for tier 2 in the first place?

So in summary branching timelines would also go through scrutiny?
Can't say I disagree

What do you think about the other requirements?

 

[KLOL506]

For the "separate spacetimes" thing, that comment from DontTalk that Agnaa posted up there simply says that two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if there are no points in space or time that are in both A and B. Under this definition, timelines that branch off of each other are not, by default, separate spacetimes. Such timelines clearly share not just a single point, but an entire interval of time, that being the timeline that existed before the moment at which they diverged. Sure, you could argue that the original timeline is simply not the same timeline as either of its branches, but then would such timelines even be big enough to qualify for tier 2 in the first place?

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

 

[HammerStrikes219]

For the "separate spacetimes" thing, that comment from DontTalk that Agnaa posted up there simply says that two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if there are no points in space or time that are in both A and B. Under this definition, timelines that branch off of each other are not, by default, separate spacetimes. Such timelines clearly share not just a single point, but an entire interval of time, that being the timeline that existed before the moment at which they diverged. Sure, you could argue that the original timeline is simply not the same timeline as either of its branches, but then would such timelines even be big enough to qualify for tier 2 in the first place?

If I not mistaken, this is referring to at least one of the multiverse theories that does support this as in separate timelines, but not truly disconnected from one another.

Only separated by differences in time between the two timelines and universes.

Although I will point out there might been a theory relating to timelines on a more smaller scale, but that will take some time to dig through the more theoretical aspects of science.

Anyway, I do agree with DonTalk regarding this as unless they are shown to being on different levels ie. not tied to the same space ie. Universe B is not on the same level as that of Universe A, but is actually higher than Universe A in this specific case, I will agree with spatial temporally separated universes.

Otherwise, I don’t think we can inherently say they are spatial temporally separated by default anyway.

 

[Aachintya31]

Bump.
Over a year still no conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a post with easy to understand explanations of the arguments here, along with listing all of the staff members who have helped out here previously, please? So I can ask them to evaluate the information.

 

[KLOL506]

Can somebody write a post with easy to understand explanations of the arguments here, along with listing all of the staff members who have helped out here previously, please? So I can ask them to evaluate the information.

I have no clue anymore, everyone seems to be having their own ideas for this topic.

 

[Aachintya31]

I guess it's no point in making rules like time traveling shouldn't be possible etc.
Every verse should be taken care individually by our current standards.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, we are just talking about Tier 2 clues to look out for if timeline destruction isn't clearly stated or shown or we are given general destruction of universes.

 

[Antvasima]

I have no clue anymore, everyone seems to be having their own ideas for this topic.

What about summaries for knowledgeable staff evaluations only then, in order to simplify things?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima Perhaps we should just publish the examples of 3-A from much earlier and restart the Tier 2 Clues discussion in a new thread?

 

[KLOL506]

What about summaries for knowledgeable staff evaluations only then, in order to simplify things?

IDK, you'd have to ask DontTalk, Ultima, Agnaa, Pain_to12 and KingPin for that to be collected into one grouping.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a post with easy to understand explanations of the arguments here, along with listing all of the staff members who have helped out here previously, please? So I can ask them to evaluate the information.

IDK, you'd have to ask DontTalk, Ultima, Agnaa, Pain_to12 and KingPin for that to be collected into one grouping.

@Antvasima Perhaps we should just publish the examples of 3-A from much earlier and restart the Tier 2 Clues discussion in a new thread?

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Pain_to12 @KingPin0422

What do you think?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have no clue anymore, everyone seems to be having their own ideas for this topic.

Everyone seems to have different ideas but well there are quite a few things everyone agrees on

What about summaries for knowledgeable staff evaluations only then, in order to simplify things?

Well here are some people's view, if i project anyone wrongly please let me know
For @Ultima_Reality
For something to qualify as tier 2, it must be explicitly stated to be such, i.e. "For something to be a space-time continuum, it has to be explicitly referred to as such"
Then he said for supporting arguments things like
1. Time was destroyed
2. You cannot travel to the past of a destroyed universe
Can be used as supporting evidences

For @DontTalkDT been a long time he was here so I cannot really say his stance

For @Agnaa
Pretty much what Ultima said and also he agreed with what DT said sometime back which translates to "Two separate space-time continuums may share the same physical space, if the space between them is a 5-D space". So essentially unless the space between the universes was stated to be a 5-D space, physically traveling among them should not be possible.
In a bit easier term, in a verse where traveling among universes is possible physically, for the verse to qualify for tier 2, there must be
1. A larger space containing all the universes/space-times
2. There must be proof the space is a 5-D space or higher.

For @KingPin0422 agrees with DT posts and also added that branching timelines are not large enough to qualify for tier 2, since there was a point in time that they were the same timeline/space.

For @Pain_to12 Well I agree with everyone of them except Ultima saying there must be an explicit statement as I cannot think of any verse would would do that to begin with. What they do is drop statements and feats here and there and we piece it together, it is rare for it to be straightforward like "each Universe in this Multiverse is its own space-time continuum"
And also I will like to add that time flowing differently (Faster and slower) in two different universes is not enough to say they are of different timelines.

And this will be all the stances, there are no disagreement with these from what I know

@Antvasima Perhaps we should just publish the examples of 3-A from much earlier and restart the Tier 2 Clues discussion in a new thread?

I really don't mind, but I think we can conclude it here too since we are almost reaching an end of the discussion.
But a new thread does not sound too bad.
The thread will just contain all the stance above and some new things, will you be willing to make the thread or I should do it.
If others are fine with creating a new thread for tier 2 of course.

 

[Firestorm808]

I can make the new thread.

Also, these are the list of examples to be added to the Tier System page from earlier.

Our earlier 3-A to Low 2-C examples to be published:

3-A - All Matter in an at least observable universe / At least observable universe sized Pocket Dimension

High 3-A - All Matter in an infinitely sized universe / Infinite sized Pocket Dimension

3-A - A Moment of Time + At least observable universe sized Space

High 3-A - A Moment of Time + Infinite Space

Low 2-C - An Entire Timeline + At least observable universe sized Space

Low 2-C - An Entire Timeline + Infinite Space

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I will ask DontTalk to help us reach a proper conclusion here, or would a new staff forum thread for this topic likely help us to more easily do so?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am fine with a new one I don't know about others aside firestorm who is also fine with it.
A new thread will allow us to document what was already agreed upon and move forward from there, as currently, it is a bit all over the place

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems reasonable to me as well.

What do the rest of you think? Is it fine if Firestorm808 creates a new staff forum discussion thread for this topic where we can hopefully continue in a more organised manner?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I will agree with making a new thread since it seems some things are accepted. I think we were getting into details of what will qualify as 2C or something

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems reasonable to me as well.

What do the rest of you think? Is it fine if Firestorm808 creates a new staff forum discussion thread for this topic where we can hopefully continue in a more organised manner?

I would appreciate further replies here.

 

[KLOL506]

I would appreciate further replies here.

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Ultima_Reality Thoughts?

 

[Firestorm808]

Considering time and current agreements, I think we can proceed.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, you can probably create a new, considerably more coherent and easy to understand, staff forum thread if you wish.

Please link to it here afterwards.

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry for the late reply. Before I make the new thread, can we apply the current example agreements to the Tiering System Page?

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry for the late reply. Before I make the new thread, can we apply the current example agreements to the Tiering System Page?

Depends on what the others think, if they still have any interest left to debate this.

 

[Firestorm808]

Depends on what the others think, if they still have any interest left to debate this.

I don't think there is much conflict regarding the 3-A to Low 2-C examples from my earlier recap.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think there is much conflict regarding the 3-A to Low 2-C examples from my earlier recap.

You mean the criteria required to qualify for 3-A and Low 2-C?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I think the 3-A is okay but low 2-C is still not yet done as thats the entire purpose of the new thread

 

[Firestorm808]

Alright, the 3-A and High 3-A stuff is the common agreement, then.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry for the late reply. Before I make the new thread, can we apply the current example agreements to the Tiering System Page?

What do you think, @DontTalkDT ?

 

[KingPin0422]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Pain_to12 @KingPin0422

What do you think?

Sorry, it's... it's been a while since I touched this site. :S

I do stand by my previous post, though, since no one has given any counterarguments (from what I can see) and I haven't changed my mind on it myself. Other than that, I'm lost on what exactly we're doing here.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Sorry, it's... it's been a while since I touched this site. :S

I do stand by my previous post, though, since no one has given any counterarguments (from what I can see) and I haven't changed my mind on it myself. Other than that, I'm lost on what exactly we're doing here.

Tbh everything has been settled, I think we are just trying to make things in order by creating a separate thread proposing the points that were not contested. here are the various posts

Everyone seems to have different ideas but well there are quite a few things everyone agrees on

Well here are some people's view, if i project anyone wrongly please let me know
For @Ultima_Reality
For something to qualify as tier 2, it must be explicitly stated to be such, i.e. "For something to be a space-time continuum, it has to be explicitly referred to as such"
Then he said for supporting arguments things like
1. Time was destroyed
2. You cannot travel to the past of a destroyed universe
Can be used as supporting evidences

For @DontTalkDT been a long time he was here so I cannot really say his stance

For @Agnaa
Pretty much what Ultima said and also he agreed with what DT said sometime back which translates to "Two separate space-time continuums may share the same physical space, if the space between them is a 5-D space". So essentially unless the space between the universes was stated to be a 5-D space, physically traveling among them should not be possible.
In a bit easier term, in a verse where traveling among universes is possible physically, for the verse to qualify for tier 2, there must be
1. A larger space containing all the universes/space-times
2. There must be proof the space is a 5-D space or higher.

For @KingPin0422 agrees with DT posts and also added that branching timelines are not large enough to qualify for tier 2, since there was a point in time that they were the same timeline/space.

For @Pain_to12 Well I agree with everyone of them except Ultima saying there must be an explicit statement as I cannot think of any verse would would do that to begin with. What they do is drop statements and feats here and there and we piece it together, it is rare for it to be straightforward like "each Universe in this Multiverse is its own space-time continuum"
And also I will like to add that time flowing differently (Faster and slower) in two different universes is not enough to say they are of different timelines.

And this will be all the stances, there are no disagreement with these from what I know

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with everything

If you are not staff, then do not comment.

 

[KingPin0422]

Tbh everything has been settled, I think we are just trying to make things in order by creating a separate thread proposing the points that were not contested. here are the various posts

Thank you. I pretty much agree with all of them, but I will note that Ultima wasn't saying that different universes have to be called different spacetimes to be counted as such, just that that's the most straightforward way to do it.

I think I would also stress the importance of the "traveling between universes" bits because that's an easy way for "universes = individual spacetimes" to be proven false. It's one thing if the space between universes is reasonably comparable to a higher dimension, but if it's clearly just a 3-D space that anyone can fly through, then that's pretty hard evidence against multiple spacetimes. Statements of inter-universal travel requiring special powers might also be worth considering, but I wouldn't put too much stock into them by default as it could be something as simple as "it lets me fly really fast."

 

[Firestorm808]

As mentioned prior. Tier 2 discussions will continue in the next thread after concluding the tier 3 items here. @Antvasima @DontTalkDT Have we reached a verdict on the Tier 3 items on your end?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am likely the wrong person to ask about our standards for this issue, but you can probably create a continuation thread that is easier to overview in our staff forum if you wish.