Tier 2 Requirements and Examples Revision

[KLOL506]

Neutral on it also.
Unless the universes are finite in size, but 2 infinite sized universe on the other hand as long as they are of different timeline or contained space-time, you won't be necessarily able to get to it through speed unless you hold ontological difference over them or you have immeasurable speed.

Which we both know can't happen because Immeasurable Speed by definition only happens when you can move through time using sheer speed alone, or you move so fast that you eventually surpass and go beyond the control of linear time itself altogether. I think it's part of the reason why we no longer consider distances between universes to be of that magnitude nor do we grant any speed ratings based off of physically travelling from universe to universe via sheer speed (Except for just assuming the distance they crossed within each universe as a low-ball because we have no given metric for the distance in-between because unquantifiability).

Infinite speed means you may be able to cross a universe but the distance between two infinite universes will be a greater infinity to begin with.
Also you need to be able to break out of the space-time barrier that makes it, their own contained space-time.

IDK if breaking through the space-time barrier is a speed feat to begin with.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Most of the time fiction makes universes as separate realms by making laws about not being able to travel through sheer speed alone with some kind of dimensional barrier or existence erasure whatever.

For example, in God of War 2018, only the Valkyries can travel from realm to realm via sheer speed alone because they possess Bifrost energy that protects them from getting erased by the void in the Realm Between the Realms (That being Yggdrasil's branches), but everyone else (Even the Gods) will require a Unity Stone to be able to do that within the Realm between Realms in Yggdrasil (Or to travel to other distant pantheons, since they are divided from each other via geographical divides but interpantheon travel has happened via unknown means), otherwise the void will permanently erase them from existence as punishment for straying from the path. The 9 Realms are still physically disconnected from each other despite sharing the same physical space (That being the branches of the World Tree) and have their own separate flows of time, however, and you need the Bifrost Key and the Realm Travel Room to safely travel from realm to realm, but the Valkyries don't, they travel the entire distance with the Bifrost energy protecting them.

Is the void some sort of pathway? Also the realm travel room?
I mean are they pathways like dimensional portals

Another example is Devil May Cry's Demon World and Human World, where they were split apart from each other (Twice, by Pluto and Sparda) and then separated by a veil-like net (This one was done by Sparda) which prevents Demons from the Demon World travelling into the Human World, forcing them to use portals, without this net the Demons would easily come through without issues and the Demon World would forcibly merge the Human World with it and the two worlds would become one once again. The Demon World and Human World are completely separate dimensions with their own separate timeflow which happened as a result of the split.

Also this DMC example, I am not sure if it will qualify for the two realms having different timelines to begin with.

Which we both know can't happen because Immeasurable Speed by definition only happens when you can move through time using sheer speed alone, or you move so fast that you eventually surpass and go beyond the control of linear time itself altogether. I think it's part of the reason why we no longer consider distances between universes to be of that magnitude nor do we grant any speed ratings based off of physically travelling from universe to universe via sheer speed (Except for just assuming the distance they crossed within each universe as a low-ball because we have no given metric for the distance in-between because unquantifiability).

I think I will have to agree with Agna on this, If they can be traveled through with speed, then they share a physical space and would need extra proof that they are indeed separate timelines

IDK if breaking through the space-time barrier is a speed feat to begin with.

If it can be done through speed to go across different universes, I am not sure those two universes have different dimension of time to begin with

 

[Zaratthustra]

Example in Archean Eon Art, the universes exist in bubbles through a void. Each has its own space and time..so if you destroy X universe it won't affect Y one. To go from one to another they will travel physically which is stated to take time but not how much.

This being an example regarding the above point.

 

[KLOL506]

Is the void some sort of pathway?

No.

Also the realm travel room?

It's the room that allows one to travel from one realm to another safely.

I mean are they pathways like dimensional portals

If you're talking about the Void, then no. The Realm Travel Room is the closest thing you could call a portal I suppose.

The only pathway would be the branches of the World Tree that the Realms sit upon. It is Yggdrasil that holds up the realms together, and has been stated to be encompassing said realms and existing above them.

Also this DMC example, I am not sure if it will qualify for the two realms having different timelines to begin with.

No.

I think I will have to agree with Agna on this, If they can be traveled through with speed, then they share a physical space and would need extra proof that they are indeed separate timelines

If it can be done through speed to go across different universes, I am not sure those two universes have different dimension of time to begin with

Disagree, especially when the realms and dimensions have been repeatedly confirmed to be separate dimensions physically disconnected from each other with their own separate flow of time to begin with, to the point where you need a Realm Travel Room to go from one realm to another and the Unity Stone to travel from Pantheon to Pantheon.

As for DMC, the Demons normally can't travel from realm to realm because of the dimensional net, relying on small tears in the veil to create the portals to travel through. If there is no veil, they can travel through the portals more easily (Nobody in DMC has ever managed to physically go from the Demon World to the Human World via sheer speed alone even without the dimensional net in place), but mostly because the Demon World is finally allowed to be merged with the Human World, but it still has to be physically merged by other outside entities like Demon Kings (Mundus and Argosax) or the Qliphoth Tree.

 

[Agnaa]

Example in Archean Eon Art, the universes exist in bubbles through a void. Each has its own space and time..so if you destroy X universe it won't affect Y one. To go from one to another they will travel physically which is stated to take time but not how much.

This being an example regarding the above point.

We've already talked about those sorts of examples. You can see my responses to them here, here, and here.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree, especially when the realms and dimensions have been repeatedly confirmed to be separate dimensions physically disconnected from each other to the point where you need a Realm Travel Room to do realm travel and the Unity Stone to travel from Pantheon to Pantheon with their own separate flow of time to begin with.

As for DMC, the Demons normally can't travel from realm to realm because of the dimensional net, relying on small tears in the veil to create the portals to travel through. If there is no veil, they can travel through the portals more easily (Nobody in DMC has ever managed to physically go from the Demon World to the Human World via sheer speed alone even without the dimensional net in place), but mostly because the Demon World is finally allowed to be merged with the Human World, but it still has to be physically merged by other outside entities like Demon Kings (Mundus and Argosax) or the Qliphoth Tree.

Just because a requirement is false for a verse does not mean it will not be true for another verse.

Put it this way, if you are unable to use physical methods to travel to another universe in a verse, that is a requirement for them that they passed.
But in another verse although you can travel to another universe physically through some messed up means that defies physics, they need to fulfill another 2 of the requirements.
I dont think it should be a case -1 + 2 = 1, so you need 1 more requirement. it is they don't fulfill this requirement so lets see if there are others they qualify for

Let me use the LS as an example, we have a requirement that those lasers should reflect in new material, but some lasers in fiction when shot into the water does not refract it just keeps going straight and the speed does not slow, something not possible IRL, that does not become minus 1 for them, it just means they need to fulfill other requirements.

Also I will try and list some instances when two universes are not to be considered different timelines if you and @Agnaa or anyone else have any suggestions for that too.

 

[Agnaa]

Also I will try and list some instances when two universes are not to be considered different timelines

Idling to Rule the Gods has you feeding universes to Black Holes (eventually tens of thousands at a time) and Ultimate Beings. It would be very strange for these to be spatio-temporally separate, and even stranger for them to be completely different timelines.

 

[KLOL506]

Just because a requirement is false for a verse does not mean it will not be true for another verse.

I am talking about verses where there they are shown/stated to be physically disconnected and to have separate flows of time from each other, and other evidences that destruction of one realm has no effect on the other realms, in advance.

Put it this way, if you are unable to use physical methods to travel to another universe in a verse, that is a requirement for them that they passed.

But in another verse although you can travel to another universe physically through some messed up means that defies physics, they need to fulfill another 2 of the requirements.

I say no, because at best the empty space between them could be of another completely different realm, the realm acting as a container for said universes, as is usually the case in most of fiction, in the form of a void.

Think of it like this. There is a big-ass box. And you put books in it spaced out.

The only thing they share is that they're in the same container, but the books themselves are completely separate from each other, tearing apart one book isn't gonna do anything to the other. The space between them would be the empty space of the box.

I dont think it should be a case -1 + 2 = 1, so you need 1 more requirement.

Or, you could just look for statements whether the universes are physically separate from each other and have their own flow of time to begin with, and whether damage to one universe affects all the other universes in tandem or not. They have evidence for being physically separate from each other and having their own flow of time and the destruction of one universe not jeopardizing the other universes? Good, they're separate space-time continuums. People being shown to travel between those timelines (Including the space between them) using sheer speed alone after all that evidence has been shown doesn't do jack to debunk them being separate spacetime continuums, because at this point they're travelling through the void between said universes.

Putting it simply, being able to travel between universes via sheer speed alone is not a debunk to the universes being separate space-time continuums, IF EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED THAT THEY ARE SEPARATE PHYSICAL SPACES WITH THEIR OWN FLOW OF TIME AND THAT DESTRUCTION OF ONE UNIVERSE DOES NOT JEOPARDIZE THE OTHERS.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Or, you could just look for statements whether the universes are physically separate from each other and have their own flow of time to begin with. They qualify for those? Good, they're separate space-time continuums. People being shown to travel between those timelines (Including the space between them) using sheer speed alone doesn't do jack to debunk them being separate spacetime continuums, because at this point they're travelling through the void between said universes.

I agree with the other points but this is something I dont think I can agree with.
All the examples you provided for one there is a medium for which people can travel through those universes not through breaking through the space-time barrier with speeds alone, there was some sort of way they could do it to begin with.
But like I said if they don't fulfill this requirement "the spaces should be of different physical space" they can look for other two requirements on the list.
But something that will actually debunk them been different timelines is been able to travel to them through speed.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with the other points but this is something I dont think I can agree with.
All the examples you provided for one there is a medium for which people can travel through those universes not through breaking through the space-time barrier with speeds alone, there was some sort of way they could do it to begin with.

Again, breaking through the space-time barrier is not a feat of speed. It can be easily attributed to Hax, like dimensional travel for example.

Also breaking through the space time barrier is completely irrelevant to the actual void distance between said two universes being travelled through, nor does it hold anything against the cosmological structure of said universes.

But something that will actually debunk them been different timelines is been able to travel to them through speed.

Again, hard disagree with this IF the realms in question have already been confirmed in prior to be physically separate dimensions with their own separate flow of time and that destruction of one realm means nothing to the well-being of the rest of the realms.

As for the whole expansion thing, it's an issue of range. The destruction could easily be relegated to one realm only. Unless you mean to tell me that the attack has suddenly gained 2-C AP out of nowhere from Low 2-C.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with the other points but this is something I dont think I can agree with.
All the examples you provided for one there is a medium for which people can travel through those universes not through breaking through the space-time barrier with speeds alone, there was some sort of way they could do it to begin with.

I am also ot sure how any of this debunks the realms being separate space time continuums.

It just means the realms are separated, and other peeps can't travel through them physically, requiring mediums to travel through, like portals or realm travel rooms. Just because the mediums don't also break through the space-time barrier, doesn't necessarily debunk them being separate space-time continuums.

I also don't get how certain select people being able to then traverse the void distance between said universes with sheer speed because they have control over a certain magical ability that protects them from being erased by that void, suddenly debunks these realms being separate space times despite having been previously confirmed to be physically separate alternate planes of existence with their own separate flow of time, and that destruction of one realm will not affect the well-being of the other realms or their fabric of reality.

 

[Agnaa]

I also don't get how certain select people being able to then traverse the void distance between said universes with sheer speed because they have control over a certain magical ability that protects them from being erased by that void, suddenly debunks these realms being separate space times despite having been previously confirmed to be physically separate alternate planes of existence with their own separate flow of time, and that destruction of one realm will not affect the well-being of the other realms or their fabric of reality.

If you can physically move from one space to another, they are necessarily part of the same space-time. This can be outweighed by enough evidence for the space-times being separate, but it's still something to keep in mind.

Having a unique flow of time does not indicate that they are separate space-times.

Destruction of one realm not destroying other realms does not indicate that they are different space-times.

 

[KLOL506]

If you can physically move from one space to another, they are necessarily part of the same space-time. This can be outweighed by enough evidence for the space-times being separate, but it's still something to keep in mind.

No, it's not worth keeping in mind at all if prior evidence confirms them to be separate in advance. To do so would be to deny the canon itself.

Having a unique flow of time does not indicate that they are separate space-times.

Destruction of one realm not destroying other realms does not indicate that they are different space-times.

On their own? No. But in combination with other evidences like being physically separate from each other? I'd say yes.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Again, breaking through the space-time barrier is not a feat of speed. It can be easily attributed to Hax, like dimensional travel for example.

Agreed

Also breaking through the space time barrier is completely irrelevant to the actual void distance between said two universes being travelled through, nor does it hold anything against the cosmological structure of said universes.

agreed

Again, hard disagree with this IF the realms in question have already been confirmed in prior to be physically separate dimensions with their own separate flow of time and that destruction of one realm means nothing to the well-being of the rest of the realms.

As for the whole expansion thing, it's an issue of range. The destruction could easily be relegated to one realm only. Unless you mean to tell me that the attack has suddenly gained 2-C AP out of nowhere from Low 2-C.

If a destruction of a universe that has already been confirmed in prior to be physically separate dimensions with their own separate flow of time (i.e. a separate space-time) can affect other universes that are also separate space-times, then the AP is indeed 2-C to begin with, not that it debunks it been separate timeline.
I think you misunderstood me, hope this clears up the confusion.

I am also ot sure how any of this debunks the realms being separate space time continuums.

It just means the realms are separated, and other peeps can't travel through them physically, requiring mediums to travel through, like portals or realm travel rooms. Just because the mediums don't also break through the space-time barrier, doesn't necessarily debunk them being separate space-time continuums.

I am not saying it debunks, I am saying it can be a requirement/proof of them actually been different space-times.
As they cannot travel it to it through physical means hence needs some sort of mediums to do that
It is not to debunk verses that they are able to travel through universes physically but a supporting evidence for other verses who meet the requirement.

I also don't get how certain select people being able to then traverse the void distance between said universes with sheer speed because they have control over a certain magical ability that protects them from being erased by that void, suddenly debunks these realms being separate space times despite having been previously confirmed to be physically separate alternate planes of existence with their own separate flow of time, and that destruction of one realm will not affect the well-being of the other realms or their fabric of reality.

As Agnaa already said, it does not debunk but you need to be able to have be able to provide more solid proof.

No, it's not worth keeping in mind at all if prior evidence confirms them to be separate in advance. To do so would be to deny the canon itself.


On their own? No. But in combination with other evidences like being physically separate from each other? I'd say yes.

This on its own is kind of contradicting, if they are separated physically you will not be able to cross them through physical means to begin with.

 

[Agnaa]

No, it's not worth keeping in mind at all if prior evidence confirms them to be separate in advance. To do so would be to deny the canon itself.

Denying the anti-feat would be denying the canon itself as well.

The only way to truly keep the canon in mind is to weigh feats against anti-feats, to find the consistent interpretation.

On their own? No. But in combination with other evidences like being physically separate from each other? I'd say yes.

imo, a statement that they're separate space-times is all you need. You don't need this fluff, just prove what needs to be proven.

Those things we mentioned add nothing. They are not evidence, because they can occur in our reality within this one unified space-time we reside in.

 

[KLOL506]

If a destruction of a universe that has already been confirmed in prior to be physically separate dimensions with their own separate flow of time (i.e. a separate space-time) can affect other universes that are also separate space-times, then the AP is indeed 2-C to begin with, not that it debunks it been separate timeline.
I think you misunderstood me, hope this clears up the confusion.

I was under the impression that Agnaa was saying that a Low 2-C attack explicitly shown in-verse to be limited to one universe only can suddenly expand to being 2-C by default based on assumptions of "FTL expansion" without any on-screen showings or statements, which I obviously can't agree with.

As I said, IRL destruction of a universe wouldn't affect other universes if they're sufficiently far away that the expansion between them is faster than the speed of light.

This was what I was talking about. It would be baseless to assume by default that a feat of destruction explicitly shown/stated to affect only one realm would go out of its way to spread to other realms without any prior evidence.

I am not saying it debunks, I am saying it can be a requirement/proof of them actually been different space-times.
As they cannot travel it to it through physical means hence needs some sort of mediums to do that
It is not to debunk verses that they are able to travel through universes physically but a supporting evidence for other verses who meet the requirement.

Ah. Okay then. Yeah, that's what I was saying, it can't be a debunk to disprove the realms being separate space-time continuums.

As Agnaa already said, it does not debunk but you need to be able to have be able to provide more solid proof.

This on its own is kind of contradicting, if they are separated physically you will not be able to cross them through physical means to begin with.

Fiction is fiction, a lot of things on the cosmological side contradict each other and don't make sense most of the time, yet they happen anyway.

 

[KLOL506]

No, it's not worth keeping in mind at all if prior evidence confirms them to be separate in advance. To do so would be to deny the canon itself.

Denying the anti-feat would be denying the canon itself as well.

The only way to truly keep the canon in mind is to weigh feats against anti-feats, to find the consistent interpretation.

Another problem with this is that this isn't even a valid anti-feat to start off with. There could be a lot of other factors contributing to it.

On their own? No. But in combination with other evidences like being physically separate from each other? I'd say yes.

imo, a statement that they're separate space-times is all you need. You don't need this fluff, just prove what needs to be proven.

Those things we mentioned add nothing. They are not evidence, because they can occur in our reality within this one unified space-time we reside in.

I am inclined to disagree with them being not evidence.

Destruction of one realm and all its space and time not affecting the other realms and their space and time is blatant proof of the realms being separate timelines. IRL, nobody has the power to actually destroy an entire section of time.

The realms having different flows of time is supporting evidence, provided there is additional evidence that the realms are also physically separate from each other. Fiction doesn't always operate on the laws of how our unified space-time operates.

 

[Agnaa]

Another problem with this is that this isn't even a valid anti-feat to start off with. There could be a lot of other factors contributing to it.

I don't see why it isn't a valid anti-feat.

Destruction of one realm and all its space and time not affecting the other realms and their space and time is blatant proof of the realms being separate timelines. IRL, nobody has the power to actually destroy an entire section of time.

Maybe, it depends on what you mean by "destroying a section of time". So ig I'd put that piece of evidence as a bit of a question mark actually.

The realms having different flows of time is supporting evidence, provided there is additional evidence that the realms are also physically separate from each other. Fiction doesn't always operate on the laws of how our unified space-time operates.

I don't like this reasoning. "This could be supporting evidence, even though it isn't under our laws of physics, because they could have different laws of physics." There's nothing backing up that their laws of physics are different in that separate flows of time can only occur in separate space-times. And if a verse explicitly spelled that out, that would be all the evidence we'd need.

 

[KLOL506]

Another problem with this is that this isn't even a valid anti-feat to start off with. There could be a lot of other factors contributing to it.

I don't see why it isn't a valid anti-feat.

Check the "other factors contributing to it" part.

Destruction of one realm and all its space and time not affecting the other realms and their space and time is blatant proof of the realms being separate timelines. IRL, nobody has the power to actually destroy an entire section of time.

Maybe, it depends on what you mean by "destroying a section of time". So ig I'd put that piece of evidence as a bit of a question mark actually.

By that I mean destroying a point in time, like the entire past or future, or really, significantly affecting it and not seeing any changes at all in the other timelines. Like what happens in some branched mulitverses, where there is only one core multiverse and changing the past only creates a brand new branched timeline that is no longer dependant on the core timeline to exist, basically here someone blows up the core timeline that the branched timelines originated from and the branched timelines remain unaffected.

But in any case, that's not my main example, since my main examples involve destroying the entire realm and all of its time as well, yet in that case if its destruction doesn't affect the well-being of the other realms as a chain reaction, then it is blatant proof for the realms being separate timelines. IRL it is impossible to affect time in any meaningful manner, let alone destroy all of time itself (That being the past, present and future).

The realms having different flows of time is supporting evidence, provided there is additional evidence that the realms are also physically separate from each other. Fiction doesn't always operate on the laws of how our unified space-time operates.

I don't like this reasoning. "This could be supporting evidence, even though it isn't under our laws of physics, because they could have different laws of physics." There's nothing backing up that their laws of physics are different in that separate flows of time can only occur in separate space-times.

This is the part I take issue with. The "different flows of time" IRL is mostly the result of different gravitational fields. Fiction almost always never does this for alternate realms, they could be perfect copies of each other with the same exact characteristics and gravity, yet the entire realms themselves would have separate flows of time.

 

[Agnaa]

Check the "other factors contributing to it" part.

I don't know what those other factors would be that could stop it from being an anti-feat.

This is the part I take issue with. The "different flows of time" IRL is mostly the result of different gravitational fields. Fiction almost always never does this for alternate realms, they could be perfect copies of each other with the same exact characteristics and gravity, yet the entire realms themselves would have separate flows of time.

As I've already said, it happens any time that reference frames are moving at different velocities. This would be indistinguishable between alternate realms.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't know what those other factors would be that could stop it from being an anti-feat.

Hax like dimensional travel used to go through the space-time barrier (Not that going through the space time barrier counts as a speed feat to begin with), or the realms being within the same container (Like a void or a larger structure encompassing them) yet being separate themselves from each other's influence and not being dependent on each other, etc.

As I've already said, it happens any time that reference frames are moving at different velocities. This would be indistinguishable between alternate realms.

Again, separate universes in fiction don't follow this logic most of the time let alone adhere to laws of gravity like this, and I'm pretty sure said universes moving at different velocities for said effect to take place is a tad bit egregiously specific, most of the time said universes are rigidly locked into one place and are stationary.

There are also moments where they could be on an alternate universe's version of Earth with all the same characteristics and metrics as the core universe's original Earth (Same exact gravity, dimensions, mass, weight), and yet they could both have different flows of time.

 

[Agnaa]

Hax like dimensional travel used to go through the space-time barrier

That's not physical travel. I said that physical travel would be an anti-feat.

or the realms being within the same container (Like a void or a larger structure encompassing them) yet being separate themselves from each other's influence and not being dependent on each other, etc.

Now you're saying "This thing isn't an anti-feat if it has other evidence outweighing it." Duh, that's how anti-feats work!

Again, separate universes in fiction don't follow this logic most of the time let alone adhere to laws of gravity, and I'm pretty sure said universes moving at different velocities for said effect to take place is a tad bit egregiously specific, most of the time said universes are rigidly locked into one place and are stationary.

We don't often assume that fiction breaks the laws of physics by default. I don't think any of them actually say "Oh by the way, these separate time-flows aren't because of gravity or acceleration." They just have the separate time-flows and never explain anything about it. So with a wide variety of fiction not saying anything, we'd assume that they follow IRL physics by default.

And hell, the most important part isn't that they're using IRL physics means to get different time-flows; it's that, because of those different time-flows IRL, we know for a fact that different time-flows don't require different space-times.

Maybe those realms have different rates of time for supernatural reason. Who cares. All that matters is that we know that, whatever the cause, it does not require separate space-times.

 

[KLOL506]

That's not physical travel. I said that physical travel would be an anti-feat.

Now you're saying "This thing isn't an anti-feat if it has other evidence outweighing it." Duh, that's how anti-feats work!

Again, it's not. Refer to the "books in the box" analogy I made.

We don't often assume that fiction breaks the laws of physics by default. I don't think any of them actually say "Oh by the way, these separate time-flows aren't because of gravity or acceleration." They just have the separate time-flows and never explain anything about it. So with a wide variety of fiction not saying anything, we'd assume that they follow IRL physics by default.

If that's the only criteria they qualify with no other supporting evidence, sure. But if there's other supporting evidence alongside it like the realms being stated/shown to be physically separate and destruction of one timeline being limited to affecting just that one timeline and not affecting any other timelines as a chain reaction, then this ultimately doesn't work.

And hell, the most important part isn't that they're using IRL physics means to get different time-flows; it's that, because of those different time-flows IRL, we know for a fact that different time-flows don't require different space-times.

Maybe those realms have different rates of time for supernatural reason. Who cares. All that matters is that we know that, whatever the cause, it does not require separate space-times.

I don't see how this debunks them being separate space-times either.

 

[Agnaa]

Again, it's not. Refer to the "books in the box" analogy I made.

Even if it's a different realm, it's still space, and so they are part of the same space-time. Books still have space between them, making them part of the same space-time.

If that's the only criteria they qualify with no other supporting evidence, sure. But if there's other supporting evidence alongside it like the realms being stated/shown to be physically separate and destruction of one timeline being limited to affecting just that one timeline and not affecting any other timelines as a chain reaction, then this ultimately doesn't work.

I believe that supporting evidence should be a weak indication. Having different time-flows is no indication, because it can happen IRL.

I don't see how this debunks them being separate space-times either.

I never said that having different time-flows debunks them being separate space-times. I just said that having different time-flows is not proof for different space-times.

Fair enough on the confusion though, because I am saying that physically traveling to another universe is proof that it's part of the same space-time.

 

[KLOL506]

Even if it's a different realm, it's still space, and so they are part of the same space-time. Books still have space between them, making them part of the same space-time.

Eh, no. Those books are their own separate space, that space between them belongs to some other realm.

I believe that supporting evidence should be a weak indication.

Disagree with supporting evidence being weak indication in any manner, shape or form.

Having different time-flows is no indication, because it can happen IRL.

Can't agree with this either due to the reasonings I mentioned above.

I never said that having different time-flows debunks them being separate space-times. I just said that having different time-flows is not proof for different space-times.

I also disagree with the latter notation that it doesn't serve as proof at all. It definitely does, just not to the degree of the much more concrete ways like via direct statements like "They are separate space-time continuums" and so on.

Fair enough on the confusion though, because I am saying that physically traveling to another universe is proof that it's part of the same space-time.

Again, no. For them to be of the same space-time, collectively affecting the space and/or time of one realm should also in tandem affect the space and/or time of the other realms. There being an empty void between them that can be traversed physically is not proof that they are connected in any way whatsoever.

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, no. Those books are their own separate space, that space between them belongs to some other realm.

It's still space. They are still part of a greater singular space-time.

Disagree with supporting evidence being weak indication in any manner, shape or form.

Apologies for the unclear wording. I meant that supporting evidence, in general as a concept, should be evidence that is a weak indication. I was not calling separate time-flows a weak indication, I was calling it no indication.

I also disagree with the latter notation that it doesn't serve as proof at all. It definitely does, just not to the degree of the much more concrete ways like via direct statements like "They are separate space-time continuums" and so on.

It is not proof because it does not distinguish between separate space-time continuums and combined space-time continuums, since it can happen in both.

As a reminder, you have not actually provided a response to this idea; in my last post where I brought it up, you just said "I don't see how this debunks them being separate space-times", to which I had to point out that that's not what I was arguing.

Again, no. For them to be of the same space-time, collectively affecting the space and/or time of one realm should also in tandem affect the space and/or time of the other realms. There being an empty void between them that can be traversed physically is not proof that they are connected in any way whatsoever.

1. For something to be able to be physically traversed, it has to be comprised of space.
2. If two places are spatial, and every point between them is spatial, they are part of the same space-time.
3. Therefore, locations that can be physically traversed are a part of the same space-time.

Also, you really need to be careful with words like "proof". Nothing is 100% incontrovertible proof in battleboarding. It's all just evidence.

 

[KLOL506]

It's still space. They are still part of a greater singular space-time.

It's not the same space as the other realms. The void does not serve as a tunnel that connects one realm to another.

Apologies for the unclear wording. I meant that supporting evidence, in general as a concept, should be evidence that is a weak indication.

Once again, I disagree with this notion that supporting evidence in general as a concept serves as a weak indication in any shape or form.

I was not calling separate time-flows a weak indication, I was calling it no indication.

Again, disagree to it being "no indication", it's definitely a decent indication, albeit not to the same degree as statements like "They are separate space-time continuums" or stuff (I'd say it's half of the job done),.

It is not proof because it does not distinguish between separate space-time continuums and combined space-time continuums, since it can happen in both.

This doesn't work in the scenario where there is blatant evidence that the realms are physically separate, and alongwith the whole "different flows of time" scenario there is additional evidence that total destruction of one realm and its fabric of reality (Space and time) does not affect the other realms or their fabric of reality (Their space and time which includes their past, present and future) in any way, shape or form, in the form of a chain reaction.

As a reminder, you have not actually provided a response to this idea; in my last post where I brought it up, you just said "I don't see how this debunks them being separate space-times", to which I had to point out that that's not what I was arguing.

1. For something to be able to be physically traversed, it has to be comprised of space.
2. If two places are spatial, and every point between them is spatial, they are part of the same space-time.
3. Therefore, locations that can be physically traversed are a part of the same space-time.

1. Okay? I didn't deny that.

2. Here's the thing, the spatial points between them do not belong to the other realms, PERIOD, the void does not act as a tunnel connected between the ends of said universes. For them to be part of the same space time it must then be shown that affecting the space between the realms will also in turn affect the other two realm's space and time in tandem. Bear in mind I haven't even tackled the idea that the space within which they're contained could also potentially be of a higher level of existence than said realms.

3. No, because again, the void between these locations does not belong to said locations nor does this void connect the other realms like a tunnel would cover two sides of a mountain pass.

Also, you really need to be careful with words like "proof". Nothing is 100% incontrovertible proof in battleboarding. It's all just evidence.

Minor nitpick but 'kay.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not the same space as the other realms.

There's still a continuous stream of space connecting them. I don't think it having different qualities would make it a different space-time.

Once again, I disagree with this notion that supporting evidence in general as a concept serves as a weak indication in any shape or form.

I have no clue why you'd call it "supporting evidence". If it's a strong indication, it should be sufficient by itself. If it's no indication, it should not be evidence.

But this seems like it's just a pointless dictionary argument so whatever.

This doesn't work in the scenario where there is blatant evidence that the realms are physically separate, and alongwith the whole "different flows of time" scenario there is additional evidence that total destruction of one realm and its fabric of reality (Space and time) does not affect the other realms or their fabric of reality (Their space and time which includes their past, present and future) in any way, shape or form, in the form of a chain reaction.

So your reason to believe that having separate time-flows indicates separate space-times, despite separate time-flows existing within our unified space-time, is "There could be other evidence as well."

Do you see the failure in logic of that?

You are not responding to my reason for saying that it's insufficient evidence. You are not even providing your own reason for it being sufficient evidence. You're just saying "What if the verse also has good evidence?"

2. Here's the thing, the spatial points between them do not belong to the other realms, PERIOD.

3. No, because again, the void between these locations does not belong to said locations.

It's still space. The spatial points between my house and my local grocery store do not belong to either building. Yet they're still spatial points, and those locations are part of the same space-time due to sharing a continuity of spatial points.

For them to be part of the same space time it must then be shown that affecting the space between the realms will also in turn affect the other two realm's space and time in tandem.

I would prefer that we don't just jump to other topics like this. It makes following the conversation a lot more difficult.

 

[KLOL506]

There's still a continuous stream of space connecting them.

Connecting them how, exactly?

I don't think it having different qualities would make it a different space-time.

Why do you think this, exactly? What logical basis do you have for this?

So your reason to believe that having separate time-flows indicates separate space-times, despite separate time-flows existing within our unified space-time, is "There could be other evidence as well."

Do you see the failure in logic of that?

You are not responding to my reason for saying that it's insufficient evidence. You are not even providing your own reason for it being sufficient evidence. You're just saying "What if the verse also has good evidence?"

No, it just means in the case of universe-sized realms they're not connected by the same timestream and therefore they do not share each other's past, present and future. That's why. I thought that would be obvious by now. Most verses in fiction do not make their universes be a different flow of time and then say it's because they're moving at different velocities, like I said, that's being too overtly specific.

It's still space. The spatial points between my house and my local grocery store do not belong to either building. Yet they're still spatial points, and those locations are part of the same space-time due to sharing a continuity of spatial points.

It being space and it sharing a continuity of spatial points means nothing, it has to be the same exact space as the other realms or else this entire notion all falls flat on its face, you cannot truly call them part of the same space if those spatial points are not the exact same type as the other realms and explicitly shown/stated to be connecting the realms instead of being just shown as empty space between the realms.

I would prefer that we don't just jump to other topics like this. It makes following the conversation a lot more difficult.

It's all part of the same topic tho.

 

[Agnaa]

Connecting them how, exactly?

By being a continuous link of space.

Why do you think this, exactly? What logical basis do you have for this?

Because regions of space can have different qualities, while still being part of the same space-time. They can even have different laws of physics.

No, it just means in the case of universe-sized realms they're not connected by the same timestream and therefore they do not share each other's past, present and future. That's why. I thought that would be obvious by now. Most verses in fiction do not make their universes be a different flow of time and then say it's because they're moving at different velocities, like I said, that's being too overtly specific.

Having time move at different speeds does not prove that they don't share a past/present/future.

I already said that my point wasn't that verses have different realms have different flows of time due to different velocities. My point is that, because our singular space-time can have regions with different flows of time while still being one space-time, that verses could have realms with different flows of time that are still part of the same space-time. Even if the reason for those differing flows is something supernatural.

It being space and it sharing a continuity of spatial points means nothing, it has to be the same exact space as the other realms or else this entire notion all falls flat on its face, you cannot truly call them part of the same space if those spatial points are not the exact same type as the other realms and explicitly shown/stated to be connecting the realms instead of being just shown as empty space between the realms.

Our own universe had different laws of physics in the past. It had different fundamental forces. I think it's pretty reasonable to call our universe's past part of the same space-time as the current universe.

Vacuum decay also involves spontaneous changes in the laws of physics that propagate across the universe at lightspeed. I would not consider these regions of different laws of physics to be separate space-times.

The eternal inflation hypothesis (the origin of the idea of bubble universes) in some formulations expects those bubbles to spontaneously different laws of physics. But those bubbles still reside in the same greater, incredibly quickly expanding space-time.

It's all part of the same topic tho.

It's a different branch, one that has already been dealt with. Stop reviving it, it does not affect the other branches.

 

[KLOL506]

By being a continuous link of space.

Again, it's not the same exact space. They need to be linked together by the same exact type of space or else it'd be wrong to say they're part of the same space-time continuum to begin with.

Sharing the same container =/= all the realms being one singular space-time continuum

Because regions of space can have different qualities, while still being part of the same space-time. They can even have different laws of physics.

But these regions of space you are talking about don't have any 4-D aspects to them, they're still 3-D, and thus having different laws of physics doesn't mean much if they're still stuck within that same level of existence. And once again, these regions of space, they are dependent on the core universe itself and are thus under its influence.

Having time move at different speeds does not prove that they don't share a past/present/future.

I already said that my point wasn't that verses have different realms have different flows of time due to different velocities. My point is that, because our singular space-time can have regions with different flows of time while still being one space-time, that verses could have realms with different flows of time that are still part of the same space-time. Even if the reason for those differing flows is something supernatural.

No, because again, those realms are not connected to a void that has the same exact properties as them. For all we know the void between them could be a of a completely different level of existence than the realms.

Our own universe had different laws of physics in the past. It had different fundamental forces. I think it's pretty reasonable to call our universe's past part of the same space-time as the current universe.

Except this is all contained within the one and the same universal structure, locked under its influence and dependent on it to exist, not more than that, so I'm not sure how that is even relevant to the question at hand.

Vacuum decay also involves spontaneous changes in the laws of physics that propagate across the universe at lightspeed. I would not consider these regions of different laws of physics to be separate space-times.

Again, these parts are not leaving the universe. Neither are they free from the influence of our universe, nor are they actually manipulating the past, present and future in anyway, shape or form.

The eternal inflation hypothesis (the origin of the idea of bubble universes) in some formulations expects those bubbles to spontaneously different laws of physics. But those bubbles still reside in the same greater, incredibly quickly expanding space-time.

And residing in the same space AKA container means nothing if said realms are confirmed to be physically separate from each other, have their own flow of time and also have confirmation that affecting their fabric of reality in their entirety will not affect the other universes in the vicinity in anyway whatsoever.

 

[Agnaa]

Again, it's not the same exact space. They need to be linked together by the same exact type of space or else it'd be wrong to say they're part of the same space-time continuum to begin with.

Sharing the same container =/= all the realms being one singular space-time continuum

I don't understand how you can say that sharing the same space-time enclosure means that they don't share a space-time.

But these regions of space you are talking about don't have any 4-D aspects to them, they're still 3-D, and thus having different laws of physics doesn't mean much if they're still stuck within that same level of existence. And once again, these regions of space, they are dependent on the core universe itself and are thus under its influence.

I don't know why you think that having 4-D aspects is important. 3-D beings can move around in 4-D space.

I don't understand what you're saying with "these regions of space are dependent on the core universe itself and are thus under its influence."

No, because again, those realms are not connected to a void that has the same exact properties as them. For all we know the void between them could be a of a completely different level of existence than the realms.

Again, you're not tackling my argument. Instead of discussing my reasons for why I don't think sharing a speed of time indicates separate space-times, you respond with "But those realms could be separate space-times for other reasons!"

Having other valid reasons does not make the reason under contention suddenly valid.

Except this is all contained within the one and the same universal structure, locked under its influence and dependent on it to exist, not more than that, so I'm not sure how that is even relevant to the question at hand.

There's a fair bit to unpack here.

They're contained within the one and the same universal structure: Our words for this are arbitrary. Some people think that our universe, were it to be infinitely large as some people reasonably suspect is the case, could be described as a quilted multiverse. Tossing out the words "universe" or "multiverse" doesn't really matter; what matters is how it fundamentally functions.

Locked under its influence and dependent on it to exist: Things can only influence things that are within their future light cones. There are, in all likelihood, parts of our universe that will never influence us, and we will never influence. The current universe cannot effect the past.

Again, these parts are not leaving the universe. Neither are they free from the influence of our universe, nor are they actually manipulating the past, present and future in anyway, shape or form.

I was responding to your earlier post about the important part being that the space is different. My counterexample is one of parts of space in serious IRL theories that are different. I don't understand how your response is adequately tackling that in context.

And residing in the same space AKA container means nothing if said realms are confirmed to be physically separate from each other, have their own flow of time and also have confirmation that affecting their fabric of reality in their entirety will not affect the other universes in the vicinity in anyway whatsoever.

Here you go again, jumping to a bunch of other topics when i try to nail you down on one.

Right now, in this chain of the conversation, we are talking about whether being able to physically travel to a universe is an anti-feat for it being a separate space-time or not. All this nonsense about "having its own flow of time" and "affecting the fabric of reality not affecting other universes" has no place here. We are talking about the validity of one piece of evidence, not every other piece of evidence that you want to bring up. Stay on topic.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@KLOL506 forget other evidences, do you have any reason why been able to physically travel across universes should not been an anti-feat for them having different space-time continuums or timelines?

I/we are not saying they cannot have other feats or evidences on why they share different space-time continuums, I am just asking why you think it should not be an anti-feat?

 

[Agnaa]

KLOL has presented a reason why; universes may perhaps be separated by a weird material that's physically traversible but should not make the spaces linked by it count as the same space-time continuum. I just disagree with that.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 forget other evidences, do you have any reason why been able to physically travel across universes should not been an anti-feat for them having different space-time continuums or timelines?

I/we are not saying they cannot have other feats or evidences on why they share different space-time continuums, I am just asking why you think it should not be an anti-feat?

Because all the void serves as is empty space between the realms that is not composed of the same exact material as the other realms, thus they cannot be truly one singular space-time continuum in any essence whatsoever.

 

[KLOL506]

KLOL has presented a reason why; universes may perhaps be separated by a weird material that's physically traversible but should not make the spaces linked by it count as the same space-time continuum. I just disagree with that.

Wrong. It's because the empty void separating them is not composed of the same exact material as that of the other universes, nor are the unvierses and the void directly physically connected to each other.

 

[Agnaa]

Wrong. It's because the empty void separating them is not composed of the same exact material as that of the other universes, nor are the unvierses and the void directly physically connected to each other.

The empty void separating the Earth from the Sun is not composed of the same exact material as that of the Earth and Sun, therefore, the Earth and the Sun are parts of different space-times.

 

[KLOL506]

The empty void separating the Earth from the Sun is not composed of the same exact material as that of the Earth and Sun, therefore, the Earth and the Sun are parts of different space-times.

The Earth and the Sun are not universe-sized objects with their own separate past, present and future, nor do they have a hint of possessing a structure on the same existential level as time.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Wrong. It's because the empty void separating them is not composed of the same exact material as that of the other universes, nor are the unvierses and the void directly physically connected to each other.

Because all the void serves as is empty space between the realms that is not composed of the same exact material as the other realms, thus they cannot be truly one singular space-time continuum in any essence whatsoever.

If I am getting this correctly, the void is either just the space between the universes or it is the medium which allows them to travel between the universes.

If the void is a physical space between the universes and can be moved to and fro through speed alone, then that's an anti-feat. As to leave a contained space-time without any hax or so would mean through speed, and that means it's not a contained space-time to begin with.
If It is just a medium that allows travel, then it is fine.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The empty void separating the Earth from the Sun is not composed of the same exact material as that of the Earth and Sun, therefore, the Earth and the Sun are parts of different space-times.

False equivalence.
Except for celestial bodies are made of matter and space isn't. They exist in same space at different coordinates.