Tier 2 Requirements and Examples Revision

[KLOL506]

That already literally happens IRL; time passes at different speeds in different frames of reference.

Isn't that just the effect of gravitational strength on certain celestial objects?

 

[PrinceofPein]

That already literally happens IRL; time passes at different speeds in different frames of reference.

I don't think this has anything to do with how fast you are moving or what you as an observer feels. or gravity warping space and time
This is a general time idk how I can explain it but all i can say is that it has nothing to do with physics, time just flows different i.e. in the lower realm, all you need is to spend a few months and you become 70+ and have aged the same, and going back to the higher realm won't undo that. And I think this happens in lots of fictions, like bleach also. there is a realm in which time flows much faster than simply entering it you coming out, you would have gotten longer hair and look older.
It is a fiction thing

Another example I can possibly think of is God of War's Norse Pantheon, all the realms exist in the same physical space but are completely separate reflections of each other (They're not connected physically in any manner whatsoever, and you need the Bifrost Travel Realm to travel between realms), each having different flows of time. Jotunheim time travels faster than Midgard, and Hel time travels slower than Midgard, but one of the realm tears in the game in Niflheim is stated to threaten only Niflheim's fabric of reality. Kep's blog goes into more detail regarding the Norse Cosmology of God of War so not sure if that's the right example to use here.

it is actually a good example also and means almost the same and would fall under the same category as what I am describing.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't think this has anything to do with how fast you are moving or what you as an observer feels. or gravity warping space and time
This is a general time idk how I can explain it but all i can say is that it has nothing to do with physics, time just flows different i.e. in the lower realm, all you need is to spend a few months and you become 70+ and have aged the same, and going back to the higher realm won't undo that. And I think this happens in lots of fictions, like bleach also. there is a realm in which time flows much faster than simply entering it you coming out, you would have gotten longer hair and look older.
It is a fiction thing

it is actually a good example also and means almost the same and would fall under the same category as what I am describing.

For realms like this, I think we should treat them as the same timelines, I really cannot say why right now but I dont see any reason why they should be treated as a different timeline.

 

[Agnaa]

Isn't that just the effect of gravitational strength on certain celestial objects?

It applies to any frames of reference that are moving at different speeds. Gravity's a common one, but even just being on a spaceship makes it happen.

I don't think this has anything to do with how fast you are moving or what you as an observer feels. or gravity warping space and time

Yes, but the fact that time can move at different speeds within one space-time IRL demonstrates that time moving at different speeds in fiction does not require different space-times.

 

[KLOL506]

For realms like this, I think we should treat them as the same timelines, I really cannot say why right now but I dont see any reason why they should be treated as a different timeline.

I don't see why they'd be treated as the same timelines necessarily if there is no indication that changing the past of one timeline will affect all the others in tandem.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, but the fact that time can move at different speeds within one space-time IRL demonstrates that time moving at different speeds in fiction does not require different space-times.

Yes but it also doesn't debunk them being separate space times either. Half the time most authors just won't care enough to overcomplicate their multiverses by making all the unvierses have completely different flows of time, the other timelines could just be synced and still not be affected by changes in one timeline's past unless demonstrably proven otherwise.

 

[KLOL506]

it is actually a good example also and means almost the same and would fall under the same category as what I am describing.

Kind of a different case scenario for Norse.

Destruction of one realm in the Norse Pantheon does not result in any adverse effects for the other realms, as indicated by the Realm Tears, where they affect only one realm and its fabric of reality, and not all of the others in tandem.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes but it also doesn't debunk them being separate space times either. Half the time most authors just won't care enough to overcomplicate their multiverses by making all the unvierses have completely different flows of time, the other timelines could just be synced and still not be affected by changes in one timeline's past unless demonstrably proven otherwise.

Of course, I would not use time passing at different speeds to argue against them being separate timelines.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yes, but the fact that time can move at different speeds within one space-time IRL demonstrates that time moving at different speeds in fiction does not require different space-times.

I can't say I disagree with this

I don't see why they'd be treated as the same timelines necessarily if there is no indication that changing the past of one timeline will affect all the others in tandem.

Then that would mean proof of burden would be on whoever is trying to claim they are of different timelines to bring in another proof aside time flowing differently ig, cause it makes no sense for someone to proof a negative

At least we should be in agreement that time passing faster or slower is not enough to say something is of a different timeline or time-space and there should be supporting proof or it can be used as a supporting factor.
should this be added to the requirements or just FAQ?

 

[KLOL506]

Then that would mean proof of burden would be on whoever is trying to claim they are of different timelines to bring in another proof aside time flowing differently ig, cause it makes no sense for someone to proof a negative

At least we should be in agreement that time passing faster or slower is not enough to say something is of a different timeline or time-space and there should be supporting proof or it can be used as a supporting factor.
should this be added to the requirements or just FAQ?

That being said, like I mentioned, time travelling differently across universes also cannot be used as a debunk to them being separate spacetimes.

At best, it'd be just supporting evidence, requiring something more rock-solid to rely upon, like one spacetime continuum's destruction not affecting the wellbeing of the other spacetime continuums at all, or changing the past of one spacetime continuum not affecting the past of the other realms, so on and so forth.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Kind of a different case scenario for Norse.

Destruction of one realm in the Norse Pantheon does not result in any adverse effects for the other realms, as indicated by the Realm Tears, where they affect only one realm and its fabric of reality, and not all of the others in tandem.

If there are other factors, then it can be considered a different time-space.
as even if there is a multiverse with multiple universes in which they share the same timeline, destruction of one universe wont necessarily have bad effects on other universes to begin with

 

[KLOL506]

If there are other factors, then it can be considered a different time-space.
as even if there is a multiverse with multiple universes in which they share the same timeline, destruction of one universe wont necessarily have bad effects on other universes to begin with

Except the Realm Tears in Norse don't just affect the space, they also affect time, as noted by the "fabric of reality" statement in the game, they're quite specific with this, if you read the blog you'll know. If they wanted to say only the space would be affected, they would've specifically said so, but they don't, they speak of the realms with regards to the entirety of their structure, and not just specific aspects of them.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Except the Realm Tears in Norse don't just affect the space, they also affect time, as noted by the "fabric of reality" statement in the game, they're quite specific with this, if you read the blog you'll know. If they wanted to say only the space would be affected, they would've specifically said so, but they don't, they speak of the realms with regards to the entirety of their structure, and not just specific aspects of them.

So you mean destruction of a realm across the whole of time(past, present and future) does not affect the other realms?

 

[KLOL506]

So you mean destruction of a realm across the whole of time(past, present and future) does not affect the other realms?

Destruction of one realm via the Realm Tears only destroys that specific realm and that specific realm's space and time AKA fabric of reality, but it does not affect the other realms or their space and time.

The Realm Tears within Niflheim only affect Niflheim itself (As well as its fabric of reality in its entirety), but this does not affect any of the other realms (Like Midgard, Asgard, Alfheim, Muspelheim, etc.), those have their own realm tears to worry about.

Basically, destroying one realm in its entirety does not affect the past or the future of the other realms in any meaningful way whatsoever, proving the realms to be separate individual space-time continuums, on top of already having been proven to be completely separate dimensions first and foremost (The realms being different planes of existence yet being complete mirror images of each other, occupying the same space which is the branches of Yggdrasil).

 

[PrinceofPein]

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected
2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of other space-time continuums/timelines for their existence
5.
6.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse
II. The universes are not connected physically
III.

 

[Agnaa]

Destruction of one realm via the Realm Tears only destroys that specific realm and that specific realm's space and time AKA fabric of reality, but it does not affect the other realms or their space and time.

The Realm Tears within Niflheim only affect Niflheim itself (As well as its fabric of reality in its entirety), but this does not affect any of the other realms (Like Midgard, Asgard, Alfheim, Muspelheim, etc.), those have their own realm tears to worry about.

Basically, destroying one realm in its entirety does not affect the past or the future of the other realms in any meaningful way whatsoever, proving the realms to be separate individual space-time continuums.

I mean, technically, because all changes IRL only propagate at the speed of light, a region being destroyed in its entirety would not affect other realms for aeons. And under the more likely models of inflation, some parts of the universe would never be affected.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, technically, because all changes IRL only propagate at the speed of light, a region being destroyed in its entirety would not affect other realms for aeons. And under the more likely models of inflation, some parts of the universe would never be affected.

Uhhhhhh...

The realms aren't regions. They're completely separate realms. They are not physically connected in any way, shape or form, they co-exist on the branches of Yggdrasil which are infinite in size, not to mention that this is not how Pantheons in God of War even function.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected
2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe/universes destroyed in the multiverse operates on different timelines or Each universe in the multiverse is its own contained space-time (bubbled multiverse)
5.
6.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse
II.
III.

Could something along the lines of "being separated causally" be considered "evidence"
those bottom 3 points?

 

[Agnaa]

It was just that your argument was "They're not affected by the destruction of each other, so they're separate space-times". So I pointed out how, under the physics that we know of, universes can be destroyed without affecting other universes while still being part of the same space-time.

But knowing that they're physically disconnected would definitionally make them separate space-times.

 

[KLOL506]

It was just that your argument was "They're not affected by the destruction of each other, so they're separate space-times". So I pointed out how, under the physics that we know of, universes can be destroyed without affecting other universes while still being part of the same space-time.

But knowing that they're physically disconnected would definitionally make them separate space-times.

Nah, my argument also kept in mind that these universes were physically disconnected first, which they are, the Nine Realms all occupy the same physical space, that being the branches of the World Tree and are all mirrors of each other in size and appearance (Meaning if you went to Egypt on Alfheim and opened a portal to Niflheim, you'd end up on Niflheim's version of Egypt), but each of these realms are alternate planes of existence (It's explained in a bit more detail in this blog), and you need the Bifrost to travel to said realms.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Could something along the lines of "being separated causally" be considered "evidence"
those bottom 3 points?

Separated causally?
How is that possible?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Separated causally?
How is that possible?

Theres a verse im making a cosmology blog for

and it describes universes being causally disconnected from other in 2 ways.

so was just curious if that would be good

because it sounds like good evidence to me for supporting their separate spacetime universes

basically each Universe is a starting point to branch off into a multiverse but not every universe is connected to each other so their not all int he same "Tree"

its more like a "forest" than a big "tree"

Erasing someone from every world (which has happened in this series) will only erase them in the Universes that "their universe" is connected too. but he can still exist in the other "trees" (other multiverses; Other Universes that aren't connected to this "Tree".)

however this entire cosmology is called "The Universe/Macrocosmo" that is the name for "all of existence/creation" in this Verse.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Theres a verse im making a cosmology blog for

and it describes universes being causally disconnected from other in 2 ways.

so was just curious if that would be good

because it sounds like good evidence to me for supporting their separate spacetime universes

basically each Universe is a starting point to branch off into a multiverse but not every universe is connected to each other so their not all int he same "Tree"

its more like a "forest" than a big "tree"

Erasing someone from every world (which has happened in this series) will only erase them in the Universes that "their universe" is connected too. but he can still exist in the other "trees" (other multiverses; Other Universes that aren't connected to this "Tree".)

however this entire cosmology is called "The Universe/Macrocosmo" that is the name for "all of existence/creation" in this Verse.

Based on this description it's fine to say, each tree operates on different timelines

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

When is a universe or multiverse destruction tier 2

Here are the considered requirements for when the creation or destruction of a universe/universes is tier 2

Basic requirement - must be a universe sized structure/structure
Then the said feat must fulfill at least 3 of the following criteria.
1. Time was said or shown to be affected
2. Inability to travel to the destroyed universe/universes for time travelers
3. Affects the entire timeline/timelines
4. Each universe/universes destroyed in the multiverse operates on different timelines or Each universe in the multiverse is its own contained space-time (bubbled multiverse)
5.
6.

Note:- time flowing differently I.e. time flowing faster or slower in different universes is not enough to proof they operate on different timelines, there should be additional evidences such as
I. Destruction of a universe and all its time won't affect the other universes in the multiverse
II. The universes are not connected physically
III.

Just this I guess
But Ultima, Qawsedf and DT, view will also be needed

 

[KLOL506]

4 is way too lengthy. Just write it down as "Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of space-time continuums/timelines for their existence".

Just so you know, this also works for universes within a bubbled multiverse if there is evidence that the universe contained within the universe is its own separate timeline free from the influence of the bigger timeline that encompasses it (For example, the bigger timeline's past was changed thus changing its future, but the alternate future's timeline, though sharing the past of said bigger timeline and having branched from it in the first place, remains the exact same, unchanged and unaffected). In essence, a timeline within a timeline.

 

[PrinceofPein]

4 is way too lengthy. Just write it down as "Each universe-sized dimension destroyed in the multiverse must be its own separate space-time continuum/timeline, free from the influence of space-time continuums/timelines for their existence".

Just so you know, this also works for universes within a bubbled multiverse if there is evidence that the universe contained within the universe is its own separate timeline free from the influence of the bigger timeline that encompasses it (For example, the bigger timeline's past was changed thus changing its future, but the alternate future's timeline, though sharing the past of said bigger timeline remains the exact same, unchanged). In essence, a timeline within a timeline.

Done, edited it accordingly

 

[Agnaa]

I disagree with the criteria 4 and I, and I think that feats shouldn't be required to meet 3 of the criteria.

I don't really like this avenue.

 

[Firestorm808]

I disagree with the criteria 4 and I, and I think that feats shouldn't be required to meet 3 of the criteria.

I don't really like this avenue.

It doesn't need to meet three. That was just an example from the laser/light requirements.

If it's not directly shown/said that entire timelines are destroyed, then we need a list of clues to look out for.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I disagree with the criteria 4 and I, and I think that feats shouldn't be required to meet 3 of the criteria.

For the criteria, I also think 2 is enough tbh, as 3 is way too much

also why do you disagree with 4?

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, 3 criteria being met I also think is a bit... much. 2 is more than enough.

 

[Agnaa]

also why do you disagree with 4?

It was different before you edited it, so I can't explain why I disagreed at the time of that message.

Having separate timelines does not prove that feats effect the entirety of those timelines. Bubble multiverses don't have every universe be its own self-contained space-time; they're explicitly all part of the same space-time. Almost no series has each universe in the multiverse be free from the influence of other universes; there'd be no reason to mention them if they were completely disconnected.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It was different before you edited it, so I can't explain why I disagreed at the time of that message.

Having separate timelines does not prove that feats effect the entirety of those timelines. Bubble multiverses don't have every universe be its own self-contained space-time; they're explicitly all part of the same space-time. Almost no series has each universe in the multiverse be free from the influence of other universes; there'd be no reason to mention them if they were completely disconnected.

I think I have seen an example, which will be DC. The infinite universes were reduced to 52 and it had no effect on the new 52 universes. I can go ahead and edit that part or reword it to something like "Destruction of a "universe and its time" has no effect on the other universes in the multiverse".
I think at that point we can safely say they are of different timelines

 

[Agnaa]

As I said, IRL destruction of a universe wouldn't affect other universes if they're sufficiently far away that the expansion between them is faster than the speed of light.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Which is why it is just one of the requirements, and they still need one more requirement, for such feats to become solid.

Edit: based on your last comment, there can also be a requirement for verses in which you are unable to travel to through sheer speed.

 

[Zaratthustra]

This point depends on how the series treats them...its a case by case.

 

[KLOL506]

Edit: based on your last comment, there can also be a requirement for verses in which you are unable to travel to through sheer speed.

I'm not particularly sold on this being a deciding factor against universes being physically disconnected or them being separate space-time continuums, as we don't consider the distance between two universes/timelines as infinite, only unquantifiably finite in size.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not particularly sold on this being a deciding factor against universes being physically disconnected or them being separate space-time continuums, as we don't consider the distance between two universes/timelines as infinite, only unquantifiably finite in size.

The argument would be that if they could be traveled to then they'd be part of the same space-time.

It's not that the gap has to be infinite, it's that if the gap can be crossed physically, then they're connected.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm not particularly sold on this being a deciding factor against universes being physically disconnected or them being separate space-time continuums, as we don't consider the distance between two universes/timelines as infinite, only unquantifiably finite in size.

Neutral on it also.
Unless the universes are finite in size, but 2 infinite sized universe on the other hand as long as they are of different timeline or contained space-time, you won't be necessarily able to get to it through speed unless you hold ontological difference over them or you have immeasurable speed.
Infinite speed means you may be able to cross a universe but the distance between two infinite universes will be a greater infinity to begin with.
Also you need to be able to break out of the space-time barrier that makes it, their own contained space-time.

Anyway like @Zaratthustra said, it should be a case by case basis

 

[KLOL506]

The argument would be that if they could be traveled to then they'd be part of the same space-time.

Most of the time fiction makes universes as separate realms by making laws about not being able to travel through sheer speed alone with some kind of dimensional barrier or existence erasure whatever, while still keeping the realms as having their own separate time and space.

For example, in God of War 2018, only the Valkyries can travel from realm to realm via sheer speed alone because they possess complete mastery over the Bifrost energy that protects them from getting erased by the void in the Realm Between the Realms (That being Yggdrasil's branches), but everyone else (Even the Gods) will require a Unity Stone to be able to do that within the Realm between Realms in Yggdrasil (Or to travel to other distant pantheons, since they are divided from each other via geographical divides but interpantheon travel has happened via unknown means), otherwise the void will permanently erase them from existence as punishment for straying from the path. The 9 Realms are still physically disconnected from each other despite sharing the same physical space (That being the branches of the World Tree) and have their own separate flows of time, however, and you need the Bifrost Key and the Realm Travel Room to safely travel from realm to realm, but the Valkyries don't, they travel the entire distance with the Bifrost energy protecting them.

Another example is Devil May Cry's Demon World and Human World, where they were split apart from each other (Twice, by Pluto and Sparda) and then separated by a veil-like net (This one was done by Sparda) which prevents Demons from the Demon World travelling into the Human World, forcing them to use portals, without this net the Demons would easily come through without issues and the Demon World would forcibly merge the Human World with it and the two worlds would become one once again. The Demon World and Human World are completely separate dimensions with their own separate timeflow which happened as a result of the split.