Tier 2 Naruto CRT

[RanaProGamer]

Part 2 of this thread, since Tier 1 was rejected, I think Tier 2 Naruto has much stronger arguments. In case you aren't this is game Naruto, not canon.

What does The Book of Transcendence contain

As per the previous discussion, there was a lot of back and forth on whether the Book of Transcendence only contained a small part of history or all of it. However, there is a single statement that was completely overlooked which I think can give us a definitive answer. Hagoromo says this "History's foundation has been restored. The Book of Foundation is the key to our salvation. Well done. You have carried out an important duty. The Legendary Sannin, Jiraiya. There is a thing which only one who has woven history might understand. One connected to the past, beginning with the dawn of time... One who continues to shape the present. That is to say, ninja history is a tale with that individual at its center. The time has come to complete the tale. Write the title now. A title reflecting your heart's desire, held deep within your soul."

Hagoromo outright states here that history begins with the dawn of time, the same history that was erased due to a calamity, which in turn erased the present as we see at the start of the game. This debunks the argument that only a part of shinobi history exists within the book. This is also proves that History =/= Shinobi History as Shinobi haven't existed since the dawn of time, which is also proven by the databook which states that the 10 Tails created the world. Shinobi History is simply part of history as a whole, and Hagoromo never once states that they're restoring just Shinobi History, but history that happens to contain Shinobi History.

This then brings up another argument, why do we only see Ninja History if all of history should be restored? This is where foundations come in.

This is what Hagoromo says word for word, "A calamity has befallen the river of time. An incident affecting the course of human history. That is to say... the erasure of history. A Ninja World with no history is no Ninja World. A Ninja World with no history is devoid of humanity. The Book Of Transcendence which you composed long ago now lies forgotten and unknown. History must be resurrected. Yet to accomplish this, we require a foundation whereupon its path will be retraced. Therefore, we shall weave this foundation together. We must once again set to paper the verses of this long-forgotten book."

Hagoromo states that by creating foundations, rest of history would be restored through retracing. Retracing by definition is:

1. go back over (the same route that one has just taken).
   "he began to retrace his steps to the station car park"
   • discover and follow (a route taken by someone else).
     "I've tried to retrace some of her movements"
   • trace (something) back to its source or beginning.
     "I wanted to retrace a particular evolutionary pathway"

So yes, the foundations don't need to be created at the beginning of time for the same reason that bridges don't need foundations at the beginning, but simply at certain points in time to allow history to trace itself back to the beginning of time. So in conclusion, the Book of Transcendence contains everything from the dawn of time up until the present. And we know that book doesn't just contain text, since at a later point in the story when Boruto is able to travel to the past at a different point in time within the Book of Foundation, he is entering a physical world. He changes his present due to his actions, not through Plot Manipulation. This all in all proves that the Book of Transcendence contains everything from the dawn of time, including Kaguya's dimensions, up until the present. And should qualify as Low 2-C.

Scaling

Hagoromo is capable of creating foundations that can hold and restore an entire space-time continuum, which should give him Low 2-C AP. Hagoromo gave half his powers to Naruto and Sasuke so they too would scale to it. This might also be consistent with Madara absorbing the God Tree to match Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke, with Kaguya stating that the Tree contains Infinite power.

 

[Tdjwo]

Well, having read and followed since the first thread, I obviously agree.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Might comment later if I feel like it

 

[karo_senpaii]

Part 2 of this thread, since Tier 1 was rejected, I think Tier 2 Naruto has much stronger arguments. In case you aren't this is game Naruto, not canon.

What does The Book of Transcendence contain

As per the previous discussion, there was a lot of back and forth on whether the Book of Transcendence only contained a small part of history or all of it. However, there is a single statement that was completely overlooked which I think can give us a definitive answer. Hagoromo says this "History's foundation has been restored. The Book of Foundation is the key to our salvation. Well done. You have carried out an important duty. The Legendary Sannin, Jiraiya. There is a thing which only one who has woven history might understand. One connected to the past, beginning with the dawn of time... One who continues to shape the present. That is to say, ninja history is a tale with that individual at its center. The time has come to complete the tale. Write the title now. A title reflecting your heart's desire, held deep within your soul."

Hagoromo outright states here that history begins with the dawn of time, the same history that was erased due to a calamity, which in turn erased the present as we see at the start of the game. This debunks the argument that only a part of shinobi history exists within the book. This is also proves that History =/= Shinobi History as Shinobi haven't existed since the dawn of time, which is also proven by the databook which states that the 10 Tails created the world. Shinobi History is simply part of history as a whole, and Hagoromo never once states that they're restoring just Shinobi History, but history that happens to contain Shinobi History.

This then brings up another argument, why do we only see Ninja History if all of history should be restored? This is where foundations come in.

This is what Hagoromo says word for word, "A calamity has befallen the river of time. An incident affecting the course of human history. That is to say... the erasure of history. A Ninja World with no history is no Ninja World. A Ninja World with no history is devoid of humanity. The Book Of Transcendence which you composed long ago now lies forgotten and unknown. History must be resurrected. Yet to accomplish this, we require a foundation whereupon its path will be retraced. Therefore, we shall weave this foundation together. We must once again set to paper the verses of this long-forgotten book."

Hagoromo states that by creating foundations, rest of history would be restored through retracing. Retracing by definition is:

1. go back over (the same route that one has just taken).
   "he began to retrace his steps to the station car park"
   • discover and follow (a route taken by someone else).
     "I've tried to retrace some of her movements"
   • trace (something) back to its source or beginning.
     "I wanted to retrace a particular evolutionary pathway"

So yes, the foundations don't need to be created at the beginning of time for the same reason that bridges don't need foundations at the beginning, but simply at certain points in time to allow history to trace itself back to the beginning of time. So in conclusion, the Book of Transcendence contains everything from the dawn of time up until the present. And we know that book doesn't just contain text, since at a later point in the story when Boruto is able to travel to the past at a different point in time within the Book of Foundation, he is entering a physical world. He changes his present due to his actions, not through Plot Manipulation. This all in all proves that the Book of Transcendence contains everything from the dawn of time, including Kaguya's dimensions, up until the present. And should qualify as Low 2-C.

Scaling

Hagoromo is capable of creating foundations that can hold and restore an entire space-time continuum, which should give him Low 2-C AP. Hagoromo gave half his powers to Naruto and Sasuke so they too would scale to it. This might also be consistent with Madara absorbing the God Tree to match Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke, with Kaguya stating that the Tree contains Infinite power.

Good work I agree with this

 

[Rozi]

folow

 

[Floxy178]

I also agree

 

[Mamaroza]

I agree

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I agree

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not sure I understand properly, is this related to the storm games alone or the main canon as well?

 

[Saqphire]

I agree

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not sure I understand properly, is this related to the storm games alone or the main canon as well?

Oh right I'm stupid

Yes, I jabaited you, this is game Naruto, not canon Naruto.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Scaling

Hagoromo is capable of creating foundations that can hold and restore an entire space-time continuum, which should give him Low 2-C AP. Hagoromo gave half his powers to Naruto and Sasuke so they too would scale to it.

I agree with L2-C Hagoromo but idk about Naruto and others scaling to it. Hagoromo is l2c because he has power that can "hold and restore an entire space-time continuum" but Naruto and Sasuke are literally a small part of that continuum. On top of that we see that Hagoromo exists outside of the book of transcendence, meaning what gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his power would either be some past version of Hagoromo, or an avatar. In which case we can't really guarantee it's the L2C Hagoromo who's giving them half of his power and not just some weaker avatar or weaker past version.

And nobody inside the BoT has any actual feats that could scale this high.

This might also be consistent with Madara absorbing the God Tree to match Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke, with Kaguya stating that the Tree contains Infinite power.

That could be a whole argument by itself if you can somehow argue it's meant literally and not just as a figure of speech. That being said, infinite 3D power is only High 3-A.
If anything, the fact that H3A power could help Madara fight Naruto and Sasuke at once would go against them being L2C.

So for now I agree with L2-C Hagoromo but I'm neutral on others scaling to him.

 

[PatatesR]

As I said in the previous topic, I approve of l2c.


You didn't mention the plot mp issue.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Looks good to me.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

This makes MUCH more sense than the low 1-C stance.

 

[ssgengar]

I’ll check this out when I can

 

[RoyGundam]

Watching for the inevitable shitshow

 

[Floxy178]

If anything, the fact that H3A power could help Madara fight Naruto and Sasuke at once would go against them being L2C.

It being stated as infinity power doesn't mean that it can't be Low 2C, just means it's at least High 3A

 

[DavidTPPM]

It being stated as infinity power doesn't mean that it can't be Low 2C, just means it's at least High 3A

Ik it's not a direct contradiction. I'm mainly pointing out that it's not enough for supporting evidence of l2c

 

[JohnHendrix212]

On top of that we see that Hagoromo exists outside of the book of transcendence, meaning what gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his power would either be some past version of Hagoromo, or an avatar. In which case we can't really guarantee it's the L2C Hagoromo who's giving them half of his power and not just some weaker avatar or weaker past version.

There's nothing hinting that Hags was some sort of Avatar for the real Hags. Nothing contradicts thinking along the lines of ghost Hags being able to enter inside a continuum, and go out of it at will.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Nothing contradicts thinking along the lines of ghost Hags being able to enter inside a continuum, and go out of it at will.

Hagoromo is physically bigger than the entire BoT and can create parts of it.

The Hagoromo who gives Naruto powers is literally a part of the erased history that CC Hagoromo is trying to fix. That by itself separates them by a pretty notable margin and shows that collapse of a timeline that CC Hags can restore is enough to erase WA Hagoromo.

One is outside than BoT and bigger than it. The other is just a miniscule part of BoT that gets erased by the calamity. I don't see any reason to believe their power is comparable.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I agree with L2-C Hagoromo but idk about Naruto and others scaling to it. Hagoromo is l2c because he has power that can "hold and restore an entire space-time continuum" but Naruto and Sasuke are literally a small part of that continuum. On top of that we see that Hagoromo exists outside of the book of transcendence, meaning what gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his power would either be some past version of Hagoromo, or an avatar. In which case we can't really guarantee it's the L2C Hagoromo who's giving them half of his power and not just some weaker avatar or weaker past version.

And nobody inside the BoT has any actual feats that could scale this high.

That could be a whole argument by itself if you can somehow argue it's meant literally and not just as a figure of speech. That being said, infinite 3D power is only High 3-A.
If anything, the fact that H3A power could help Madara fight Naruto and Sasuke at once would go against them being L2C.

So for now I agree with L2-C Hagoromo but I'm neutral on others scaling to him.

The thing is, the soul we see in the BoT and the soul in the Pure Lands are the same. In Heroes 2 (which in the last thread was accepted as canon), Kabuto was going to seal Kasumi’s soul into a scroll to prevent her soul from going to the afterlife. Which all the characters acknowledged.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The thing is, the soul we see in the BoT and the soul in the Pure Lands are the same. In Heroes 2 (which in the last thread was accepted as canon), Kabuto was going to seal Kasumi’s soul into a scroll to prevent her soul from going to the afterlife. Which all the characters acknowledged.

Where is it said or shown that they're the same? How could Hagoromo be both destroyed in the BoT and repair the past outside of it?

 

[RanaProGamer]

Where is it said or shown that they're the same? How could Hagoromo be both destroyed in the BoT and repair the past outside of it?

When was Hagoromo destroyed in the BoT? And even if it were. The fact that Jiraiya and Hagoromo’s soul were not destroyed means that souls were just unaffected by it. Someone brought this up in the previous thread, but it could just mean that souls have Type 1 Acausality where their destruction of the past doesn’t affect them. Again, in Heroes 2, Kasumi’s soul would be unable to go to the Pure Lands if it were successfully sealed by Kabuto, implying the soul is the same.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I agree with OP'S stated.

 

[DavidTPPM]

When was Hagoromo destroyed in the BoT?

The Shinobi history was erased which would include Hagoromo giving Naruto and Sasuke his power.
Which is consistent with the fact that we see Naruto and Sasuke get erased out of the book and being just a miniscule part of it even tho Hagoromo scales to the book itself.

it could just mean that souls have Type 1 Acausality where their destruction of the past doesn’t affect them.

I'm fine with Acausality type 1. My issue is with the logic behind everything.

Hagoromo is L2-C because he can create foundations that hold the entire space-time continuum together. In other words, Hagoromo scales to the entire spacetime continuum. Yet Naruto and Sasuke were just an infinitesimal part of the same spacetime continuum and got erased due to the same calamity Hagoromo was fixing. Basically
Hagoromo >~ STC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya > Naruto + Sasuke.

Then alongside that you have the fact there's simply no proof that the Hagoromo who powered up Naruto and Sasuke is the same version of Hagoromo as the one who fixed the BoT. Which is supported by the fact that the Hagoromo who gave them power should be, yk, almost powerless since the power ups were permanent, yet he appears as infinitely stronger.

 

[RanaProGamer]

The Shinobi history was erased which would include Hagoromo giving Naruto and Sasuke his power.
Which is consistent with the fact that we see Naruto and Sasuke get erased out of the book and being just a miniscule part of it even tho Hagoromo scales to the book itself.

I'm fine with Acausality type 1. My issue is with the logic behind everything.

Hagoromo is L2-C because he can create foundations that hold the entire space-time continuum together. In other words, Hagoromo scales to the entire spacetime continuum. Yet Naruto and Sasuke were just an infinitesimal part of the same spacetime continuum and got erased due to the same calamity Hagoromo was fixing. Basically
Hagoromo >~ STC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya > Naruto + Sasuke.

Tbh, I think erasure of history falls under Existence Erasure. It wasn’t the AP that erased Naruto and Sasuke, but hax

Then alongside that you have the fact there's simply no proof that the Hagoromo who powered up Naruto and Sasuke is the same version of Hagoromo as the one who fixed the BoT. Which is supported by the fact that the Hagoromo who gave them power should be, yk, almost powerless since the power ups were permanent, yet he appears as infinitely stronger.

But I could also say the same that there’s no proof that the Hagoromo that gave his powers to Naruto and Sasuke is an avatar as there is no statement of it. I don’t quite understand the almost powerless argument

 

[Saqphire]

Tbh, I think erasure of history falls under Existence Erasure. It wasn’t the AP that erased Naruto and Sasuke, but hax

Pretty sure Existence Erasure is still given a tier in AP, and hax in general is given a tier if on a certain scale (in this case, Universal+)

Then alongside that you have the fact there's simply no proof that the Hagoromo who powered up Naruto and Sasuke is the same version of Hagoromo as the one who fixed the BoT. Which is supported by the fact that the Hagoromo who gave them power should be, yk, almost powerless since the power ups were permanent, yet he appears as infinitely stronger.

Occam’s razor

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Hagoromo is L2-C because he can create foundations that hold the entire space-time continuum together. In other words, Hagoromo scales to the entire spacetime continuum. Yet Naruto and Sasuke were just an infinitesimal part of the same spacetime continuum and got erased due to the same calamity Hagoromo was fixing. Basically
Hagoromo >~ STC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya > Naruto + Sasuke.

Characters at the lower levels of low 2-C tier getting erased by Low 2-C tier Existence Erasure Hax is consistent enough, actually.

Then alongside that you have the fact there's simply no proof that the Hagoromo who powered up Naruto and Sasuke is the same version of Hagoromo as the one who fixed the BoT.

There's even less proof of Hagoromo using an avatar to enter the timeline. At this point, it's better to assume it was just him.

Which is supported by the fact that the Hagoromo who gave them power should be, yk, almost powerless since the power ups were permanent, yet he appears as infinitely stronger.

What makes you think he was infinitely powerful?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Tbh, I think erasure of history falls under Existence Erasure. It wasn’t the AP that erased Naruto and Sasuke, but hax

Why would the collapse of history be existence erasure hax?

But I could also say the same that there’s no proof that the Hagoromo that gave his powers to Naruto and Sasuke is an avatar as there is no statement of it. I don’t quite understand the almost powerless argument

Well for one that wouldn't matter because you need evidence to prove Naruto scales to those feats, not feats that he doesn't.
But more importantly I already listed several.

Occam’s razor

Wouldn't occams razor be in my favor here tho? S4 Hagoromo is just a regular being in the BoT while CC Hagoromo exists outside of said book entirely and is physically bigger than it in its entirety. S4 Hagoromo depowers himself by giving away his power while CC Hagoromo performs the best feats in the series. Hell, Naruto and Sasuke who both individually gain Hagoromos power are a part of what Hagoromo creates and rebuilds alongside the rest of the foundation which should be impossible if both combined have their power + 100% of Hagoromos.

The conclusion with the least amount of assumptions would be that Hagoromo inside and outside of BoT are different.

There's even less proof of Hagoromo using an avatar to enter the timeline. At this point, it's better to assume it was just him.

I'm saying the avatar is only one possible interpretation. That way they could at least get a "possibly low 2-c" rating. The Hagoromo we see in CC and s4 appear completely different so the most logical conclusion would be that it's a different version of Hagoromo. Presumably a different form he gained after the events of the war. He does state that the "Book of Transcendence was composed a long time ago and now lies forgotten" which does outright prove CC takes place a long time after the war arc.

Since he's physically completely different, not missing the power he gave to Naruto and Sasuke, and performs feats completely beyond anything anyone inside the BoT has ever done.

What makes you think he was infinitely powerful?

Naruto and Sasuke as well as Ghost Hagoromo are just a infinitesimal part of the text in BoT. Hagoromo is straight up physically larger than the entire book and creates foundations that hold the entire book together.

One is a part of a book and gets erased when the foundations get destroyed. The other is completely beyond the book and creates these foundations. There's a clear gap here.

 

[Golden_Void]

Sorry fellas I'm just not seeing it

 

[RanaProGamer]

Why would the collapse of history be existence erasure hax?

Cuz of the constant use of the word 'erasure of history' and that fact we see nothing get left behind which is what EE does.

Well for one that wouldn't matter because you need evidence to prove Naruto scales to those feats, not feats that he doesn't.
But more importantly I already listed several.

I mentioned the infinite power statement.

Wouldn't occams razor be in my favor here tho? S4 Hagoromo is just a regular being in the BoT while CC Hagoromo exists outside of said book entirely and is physically bigger than it in its entirety. S4 Hagoromo depowers himself by giving away his power while CC Hagoromo performs the best feats in the series. Hell, Naruto and Sasuke who both individually gain Hagoromos power are a part of what Hagoromo creates and rebuilds alongside the rest of the foundation which should be impossible if both combined have their power + 100% of Hagoromos.

Kasumi is literally the strongest argument as to how souls work. As well as Minato, since we know his soul came from and back to the Pure Lands. Souls just happen to appear smaller in the real world is all. The same reason that mental bodies appear physically bigger than the book. Also, nothing suggest Hagoromo depowering himself, he's bestowing his power, not completely passing it on.

The conclusion with the least amount of assumptions would be that Hagoromo inside and outside of BoT are different.

Again, Kasumi debunks this. I'd say your argument would have been stronger if we didn't see that Jiraiya also exists on the same level as Hagoromo. Which would imply that Hagoromo isn't a special case, but its the nature of souls.

I'm saying the avatar is only one possible interpretation. That way they could at least get a "possibly low 2-c" rating. The Hagoromo we see in CC and s4 appear completely different so the most logical conclusion would be that it's a different version of Hagoromo. Presumably a different form he gained after the events of the war. He does state that the "Book of Transcendence was composed a long time ago and now lies forgotten" which does outright prove CC takes place a long time after the war arc.

So you think Naruto and Sasuke would get "Possibly Low 2-C"? Here's the thing, the appearance of souls isn't anything special, we see that Obito dies as an adult but can appear as a kid in the Pure Lands. Hags gaining a different form is never confirmed. There isn't any statement whatsoever for it.

Since he's physically completely different, not missing the power he gave to Naruto and Sasuke, and performs feats completely beyond anything anyone inside the BoT has ever done.

So you're implying like a Post-timeskip kind of amp?

Naruto and Sasuke as well as Ghost Hagoromo are just a infinitesimal part of the text in BoT. Hagoromo is straight up physically larger than the entire book and creates foundations that hold the entire book together.

So was Jiraiya's soul.

One is a part of a book and gets erased when the foundations get destroyed. The other is completely beyond the book and creates these foundations. There's a clear gap here.

Not just Hagoromo, but souls in general. The fact that Jiraiya is also beyond the book proves it.

 

[RoyGundam]

Someone needs to get some mods in here

 

[DavidTPPM]

Cuz of the constant use of the word 'erasure of history' and that fact we see nothing get left behind which is what EE does.

Not necessarily existence erasure tho. Like, I can erase something I wrote with a pencil but I don't have existence erasure hax. Destruction is commonly referred to as erasure. And Hagoromo is rebuilding the history by creating its foundations, not creating a completely new history. Meaning the "erased" past still exists in some form and just lacks the foundations.

I mentioned the infinite power statement.

As I said that'd high 3A at best, not L2C.

Kasumi is literally the strongest argument as to how souls work. As well as Minato, since we know his soul came from and back to the Pure Lands. Souls just happen to appear smaller in the real world is all. The same reason that mental bodies appear physically bigger than the book.

You're trying to say that EVERY soul in the verse is literally bigger than the entire timeline here just because they go to the pure lands after death?
Do we have any statements that the place where Pure Lands are is the same as where BoT is?

Also, nothing suggest Hagoromo depowering himself, he's bestowing his power, not completely passing it on.

He's giving them half of his power which they keep even after defeating Kaguya. Based on that alone, if you want to say they should scale to him then Hagoromo should be depowered.

Again, Kasumi debunks this. I'd say your argument would have been stronger if we didn't see that Jiraiya also exists on the same level as Hagoromo. Which would imply that Hagoromo isn't a special case, but its the nature of souls.

That just proves Jiraya might also be L2C. Not that everyone is. We also don't see anyone else exist on this plane so this only really proves we can give Jiraya a "possibly l2c" rating.

So you think Naruto and Sasuke would get "Possibly Low 2-C"? Here's the thing, the appearance of souls isn't anything special, we see that Obito dies as an adult but can appear as a kid in the Pure Lands. Hags gaining a different form is never confirmed. There isn't any statement whatsoever for it.

Yet we never see Obito in the same plane as CC Hagoromo or Jiraya. Not only that, souls in general can be summoned and manipulated by people in the living world.
Even the collapse of the entire Shinobi history does not affect Hagoromo (and Jiraya) yet regular souls can be affected by infinitesimal parts of the history and enslaved as Edo Tensei soldiers. Regular souls can ALSO be interacted with through many other abilities like the human path, so it's pretty clear regular souls don't share the same existence as Hagoromo.

You do realize that the collapse of the timeline destroying the war arc not only includes S4 Hagoromo but also every soul from the pure world that got sealed inside an Edo tensei body

So you're implying like a Post-timeskip kind of amp?

Kinda? We know CCA takes place such a long time after S4 that the BoT was already "long forgotten" or whatever. We don't know what happened between those years.

For example, if Hokage Naruto was shown blowing up timelines (and didn't have a verbatim comparisons or scalings to his past self) we wouldn't scale Shippuden Naruto to him. Even if there is no direct confirmation that he got a power up in the timeskip, since the feats far dwarf his previous feats we would just assume he had to get some amp. Lacking evidence of a power is not evidence that there was no power up.

So was Jiraiya's soul.
Not just Hagoromo, but souls in general. The fact that Jiraiya is also beyond the book proves it.

No, that only proves Jiraya is beyond the book. Like even logically speaking, if everyone dead was in this state of existence/realm/whatever, why would Hagoromo stick to just Jiraya? He could ask Minato, Hashirama, Ashura, Obito, Hiruzen, etc, for help as well. Yet not only does he not ask them, we don't see any of them at all.

I'll compose my main reasonings into a single message because I feel like we're all over the place.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So why isn't Hagoromo the same in SC as in S4?

1. A large time skip happened. Generally there is no reason to believe Hagoromo remained on the same level since S4.

2. There's a massive gap in power between the feats Hagoromo scales in Storm 4 and in connections. The best feat in S4 is only 4-A, and the best statement is, even if taken at face value, High 3-A. A character doesn't need to be verbatim stated to have gotten stronger if there's a logical reason to assume they did (massive time skip) and the feats support the idea.

3. Hagoromos body and power are just very blatantly different. S4 Hags was a small part of the BoT while SC Hags is shown to exist completely separate from it. SC Hagoromos power can also create foundations that hold the entire history, while S4 Hagoromos power was barely enough to defeat a single being living during the history.

 

[RanaProGamer]

So why isn't Hagoromo the same in SC as in S4?

1. A large time skip happened. Generally there is no reason to believe Hagoromo remained on the same level since S4.

2. There's a massive gap in power between the feats Hagoromo scales in Storm 4 and in connections. The best feat in S4 is only 4-A, and the best statement is, even if taken at face value, High 3-A. A character doesn't need to be verbatim stated to have gotten stronger if there's a logical reason to assume they did (massive time skip) and the feats support the idea.

3. Hagoromos body and power are just very blatantly different. S4 Hags was a small part of the BoT while SC Hags is shown to exist completely separate from it. SC Hagoromos power can also create foundations that hold the entire history, while S4 Hagoromos power was barely enough to defeat a single being living during the history.

Tbh, I will give you this. I have no arguments against Hags getting much stronger between S4 and SC. It’s been accepted for many characters across the wiki, so I am willing to accept that SC Hagoromo > S4 Hagoromo.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Someone needs to get some mods in here

Agreed, I’m also waiting for Arc’s response as well

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Agreed, I’m also waiting for Arc’s response as well

Xenoblade Chronicles 3 is eating up my priorities so don't feel the need to wait on me if staff end up coming in and casting votes.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Xenoblade Chronicles 3 is eating up my priorities so don't feel the need to wait on me if staff end up coming in and casting votes.

Aight, no worries my guy. Don’t wanna put too much on your plate

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Watching for the inevitable shitshow

we share the same opinion smh