Tier 0??

[A6colute]

Tier 0s are beyond information and meta-information. It is primary and exists before everything else in its verse. LOI fits these requirements.

LOI fits these requirements.

1. TLOI is limited in knowledge.

2. Knowledge = information.

3. TLOI is limited in information.

4. TLOI cannot be beyond information and meta-information.

5. TLOI is not tier 0.

 

[A6colute]

Matt, what A6 is saying is that tier 0s are above everything including information, so if they are not omniscient, they are not beyond everything.

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we do make a distinction between the terms omniscience and questionable omnipotence. Othervise we would have to downgrade both Azathoths, which I find unreasonable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Your misunderstanding of LoI is information.

Seriously, stop being obssessed over a buzzword.

 

[A6colute]

Othervise we would have to downgrade both Azathoths

Why?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lack of Omniscience is not a limitation because it doesn't affect a Tier 0s power in any way, shape or form.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Why?


Because Azathoth is mindless

 

[A6colute]

Seriously, stop being obssessed over a buzzword.

What???

Information is not a buzzword.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If a character that doesn't demonstrate Omniscience is Tier 0, and a mindless character is Tier 0, then a Nigh-Omnsicient character can also be Tier 0.

 

[Antvasima]

Because Azathoth is supposed to be a "blind idiot God".

 

[A6colute]

Because Azathoth is mindless

And? Tier 0 character doesn't need in such thing like "mind".

 

[A6colute]

Because Azathoth is supposed to be a "blind idiot God".

From our perspective.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Tier 0 character doesn't need in such thing like "mind".

... Then why are you arguing against Tier 0 based solely on a lack of Omniscience? That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

 

[Sera_EX]

Enough. Let's calm down before this gets heated any further.

In any case, Azathoth could be beyond information because it is the source of information. Plus Azathoth is beyond hierarchies of 1-As who are all beyond information.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And much like Azathoth is the source of information, so is the Law of Identity. If one writer writes the source of all knowledge as mindless, and another as not Omniscient, that is not a weakness, but rather the way they define their story.

 

[A6colute]

If a character that doesn't demonstrate Omniscience is Tier 0, and a mindless character is Tier 0, then a Nigh-Omnsicient character can also be Tier 0.

No.

"If a character that doesn't demonstrate Omniscience is Tier 0" - but it doesn't demonstrate a lack in Omniscience also.

"a mindless character is Tier 0" - tier 0 character doesn't need in such thing like "mind".

"a Nigh-Omnsicient character can also be Tier 0" - character, who cannot even give itself Omniscience...

 

[A6colute]

... Then why are you arguing against Tier 0 based solely on a lack of Omniscience? That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

There are no contradictions.

Azathoth doesn't stated as being, which has a lack of Omniscience.

 

[Sera_EX]

Azathoth also created Yog-Sothoth who is omniscient. Azzy is the source of all information because it created Yog who knows all, sees all, and is all. The Identity is the storyteller of existence. All beings are what they are because she has written it.

 

[A6colute]

If one writer writes the source of all knowledge as mindless, and another as not Omniscient, that is not a weakness, but rather the way they define their story.

Azathoth is a mindless from lower beings perspective.

TLOI is not Omniscient from it's own perspective.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are admitting Tier 0s don't need minds, so Omniscience or lackthereof is wholy superflous and meaningless. The Law of Identity fulfills all other requirements for Tier 0, so it's lack of logic is not a flaw, not a weakness.

Also, your grammer is breaking down again.

 

[A6colute]

The Identity is the storyteller of existence. All beings are what they are because she has written it.

But if storyteller doesn't have full information, then its story will be incomplete.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have worked hard today with both taking care of monitoring everything going on in the wiki, and organising the information in the staff recruitment drive, so I have to relax a few hours before going to bed.

I hope that everybody involved will try hard to remain calm, polite, and reasonable in the meantime. Thank you.

 

[Sera_EX]

Tier 0s are supposed to be beyond perspective....or is that just an Umineko thing?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Please stop criticising A6colute for his English skills. Not all countries have equivalent training in this area.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If we are without time now, perhaps we should take a break and come back later today?

 

[Sera_EX]

I can ensure everyone remains civil. We just need to calm down a bit and wait for more input. If anyone is willing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Like, I have a life. I gotta take a break, take care of studies and everthing, but I don't want the debate to be concluded because I wasn't here to argue against it. So perhaps a temporary break?

 

[A6colute]

Just a simple example:

You write a book about Russia. But you know nothing about Russia. Then your book will be incomplete, right?

And another author write a book about Russia. And he has proper knowledge about Russia. Then his book will be much more solid, right?

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, that is an excellent idea Matt. I too am very busy, I have animation production and a lot of phone calls to make, so a break would be nice.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me. There is no need to hurry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, feel free to close it. We can pick up later.