- 1,092
- 919
What? Name one 1-A that is superior to the Law of Identity...
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tier 0??
- Thread starter A6colute
- Start date
-
- Tags
- the law of identity
- Status
- 32,343
- 20,268
"TLOI doesn't look stonger than most of High 1-A characters. In the same time other tier 0 characters looks far superior than characters like TLOI."
stonger.
But are you honestly arguing about High 1-A and Tier 0 Power Levels? It doesn't matter what you think, or what anyone thinks. In terms of power, High 1-A and 0 are fully unknowable and almost interchangable. What makes TLOI Tier 0 is it's role as the series' Supreme Being, fully transcendent over 1-As / High 1-As.
If Kami Tenchi, which is a character who appears for a total of 5 minutes, has absolutely 0 definition, nor feats, other than "Being Omnipotent to the Chousin", is allowed a Tier 0, and gets assumed Omniscience and Omnipresence, then so does TLOI.
stonger.
But are you honestly arguing about High 1-A and Tier 0 Power Levels? It doesn't matter what you think, or what anyone thinks. In terms of power, High 1-A and 0 are fully unknowable and almost interchangable. What makes TLOI Tier 0 is it's role as the series' Supreme Being, fully transcendent over 1-As / High 1-As.
If Kami Tenchi, which is a character who appears for a total of 5 minutes, has absolutely 0 definition, nor feats, other than "Being Omnipotent to the Chousin", is allowed a Tier 0, and gets assumed Omniscience and Omnipresence, then so does TLOI.
- 40,457
- 12,924
I can't even make an OC that fits that category...VenomElite said:
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #84
The very concept of knowledge is meaningless to a Tier 0. It's not about what they or cannot do.
Because tier 0 superior this concept. That means that tier 0 characters know all. And more than all.
You are being dishonest, it cannot be denied by 1-As and High 1-As in its verse.
It's a problem of 1-A in its verse.
So one Tier 0 is accepted despite their being even less feats and information regarding its nature and existence?
We have enough information about Kami Tenchi, no?
No fictional character is fully Omnipotent. Omnipotence does not exist.
Okay - full omnipotence even by fictional standards.
Debating which character is strongest from 1-A onwards is wholly impossible and completely meaningless, unless dealing with a singular Verse. They are not.
Wait-wait-wait. If "tier 0" from one verse = 1-A from another verse, then this "tier 0" is not "tier 0".
Do you understand this?
Because tier 0 superior this concept. That means that tier 0 characters know all. And more than all.
You are being dishonest, it cannot be denied by 1-As and High 1-As in its verse.
It's a problem of 1-A in its verse.
So one Tier 0 is accepted despite their being even less feats and information regarding its nature and existence?
We have enough information about Kami Tenchi, no?
No fictional character is fully Omnipotent. Omnipotence does not exist.
Okay - full omnipotence even by fictional standards.
Debating which character is strongest from 1-A onwards is wholly impossible and completely meaningless, unless dealing with a singular Verse. They are not.
Wait-wait-wait. If "tier 0" from one verse = 1-A from another verse, then this "tier 0" is not "tier 0".
Do you understand this?
- 32,343
- 20,268
"Because tier 0 superior this concept. That means that tier 0 characters know all. And more than all."
Not necessarely, to be a Tier 0 is to be immensely superior and transcendental and unknowable when compared to 1-As and High 1-As. It is a state of being and a Tier of strength, nothing more.
"It's a problem of 1-A in its verse."
We ranked characters at Tier 0 over less.
"We have enough information about Kami Tenchi, no?"
We have about as much information on KT as LoI, so it is dishonest to accept Omnipotence on one but another.
"Okay - full omnipotence even by fictional standards."
No, there is no full Omnipotence by fictional standards.
"Wait-wait-wait. If "tier 0" from one verse = 1-A from another verse, then this "tier 0" is not "tier 0"."
A 1-A from one Verse can be theoretically a Tier 0 in another, and like wise a Tier 1-A can possibly beat a Tier 0 from another.
Cross-Verse interaction is not a factor when dealing with 1-As and above. They are contradictory, vague and unquantifiable, and thus we go solely by what is seen in Verse. I don't care if you wanna argue that Hajun can beat Kami Tenchi, or that Sakuya > The One Above All. Such debates are against the laws of our website, and have never been a factor in ranking 1-As and Tier 0s.
Not necessarely, to be a Tier 0 is to be immensely superior and transcendental and unknowable when compared to 1-As and High 1-As. It is a state of being and a Tier of strength, nothing more.
"It's a problem of 1-A in its verse."
We ranked characters at Tier 0 over less.
"We have enough information about Kami Tenchi, no?"
We have about as much information on KT as LoI, so it is dishonest to accept Omnipotence on one but another.
"Okay - full omnipotence even by fictional standards."
No, there is no full Omnipotence by fictional standards.
"Wait-wait-wait. If "tier 0" from one verse = 1-A from another verse, then this "tier 0" is not "tier 0"."
A 1-A from one Verse can be theoretically a Tier 0 in another, and like wise a Tier 1-A can possibly beat a Tier 0 from another.
Cross-Verse interaction is not a factor when dealing with 1-As and above. They are contradictory, vague and unquantifiable, and thus we go solely by what is seen in Verse. I don't care if you wanna argue that Hajun can beat Kami Tenchi, or that Sakuya > The One Above All. Such debates are against the laws of our website, and have never been a factor in ranking 1-As and Tier 0s.
- 32,343
- 20,268
I couldn't care less if you think Marduk is stronger or equal to LoI. If your main argument to deny a character of it's "Questionable Omnipotence" is to use another Verse, then your argument is meritless and meaningless in relation to the character's verse. Marduk doesn't exist in Demon King Daimao, to treat it as existing is dishonest and aside from the point.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #88
Not necessarely, to be a Tier 0 is to be immensely superior and transcendental and unknowable when compared to 1-As and High 1-As. It is a state of being and a Tier of strength, nothing more.
Not, it's necessary.
Because if "It is a state of being and a Tier of strength, nothing more", then we can have a High 1-A and another being which is stronger than first and one more being which is stronger then previous, etc.
In this case we have:
1. High 1-A
2. 0
3. 0+
Yes?
No. We have only
1. High 1-A
2. High 1-A
3. High 1-A
.....
999. High 1-A
Not, it's necessary.
Because if "It is a state of being and a Tier of strength, nothing more", then we can have a High 1-A and another being which is stronger than first and one more being which is stronger then previous, etc.
In this case we have:
1. High 1-A
2. 0
3. 0+
Yes?
No. We have only
1. High 1-A
2. High 1-A
3. High 1-A
.....
999. High 1-A
- 32,343
- 20,268
I didn't understand your post.
Again, knowledge as a whole is meaningless for a 1-A and onward, but fiction treats it as meaningful, and gives human personalities to beings which should not hold such limitations. By your logic, no character who expresses fear, love, anger, humor, awkwardness, doubt, insecurities, or any other state of being that defines human experience should not be ranked as 1-A.
But we still rank a Tsundere Schoolgirl at 1-A because of power feats.
As such, I don't see why "NOT OMNISCIENT" disproves a Tier 0.
Again, knowledge as a whole is meaningless for a 1-A and onward, but fiction treats it as meaningful, and gives human personalities to beings which should not hold such limitations. By your logic, no character who expresses fear, love, anger, humor, awkwardness, doubt, insecurities, or any other state of being that defines human experience should not be ranked as 1-A.
But we still rank a Tsundere Schoolgirl at 1-A because of power feats.
As such, I don't see why "NOT OMNISCIENT" disproves a Tier 0.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #91
I couldn't care less if you think Marduk is stronger or equal to LoI.
Marduk limited only by higher beings.
Marduk is above different hierarchies.
Marduk is above fiction-reality hierarchy also.
Marduk is essence of pure information in its purest form.
Different conceptions like "I am me" is information also.
So, pure information > conceptions like "I am me".
So, Marduk > TLOI.
Marduk limited only by higher beings.
Marduk is above different hierarchies.
Marduk is above fiction-reality hierarchy also.
Marduk is essence of pure information in its purest form.
Different conceptions like "I am me" is information also.
So, pure information > conceptions like "I am me".
So, Marduk > TLOI.
- 32,343
- 20,268
I/O = Demon King Daimao. What Marduk is holds no merit on this discussion.
I could create a Fanfic Character on a whim who kills Kami Tenchi, TOAA, The Writer, Azathoth *2, Divine Presence, The Creator, Parabrahaman and Ein Sof merely by its very existence, and use that to "disprove" said characters' Omnipotences.
But we don't do that, right?
That's called Suggsverse.
So applying what applies to one Verse into another is wrong.
I could create a Fanfic Character on a whim who kills Kami Tenchi, TOAA, The Writer, Azathoth *2, Divine Presence, The Creator, Parabrahaman and Ein Sof merely by its very existence, and use that to "disprove" said characters' Omnipotences.
But we don't do that, right?
That's called Suggsverse.
So applying what applies to one Verse into another is wrong.
- 32,343
- 20,268
You are being a dick. Can you stop being agressive and mocking in this discussion?
My mere disagreement with you does not make me dumber than you, and going "You don't understand" and "LOL" means nothing.
If your method of debate revolves around mockery and accusations, than what you are doing is applying fallacies.
Similarly, debating 1-A Versus Matches is against this website's rules.
My mere disagreement with you does not make me dumber than you, and going "You don't understand" and "LOL" means nothing.
If your method of debate revolves around mockery and accusations, than what you are doing is applying fallacies.
Similarly, debating 1-A Versus Matches is against this website's rules.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #97
I could create a Fanfic Character on a whim who kills Kami Tenchi, TOAA, The Writer, Azathoth *2, Divine Presence, The Creator, Parabrahaman and Ein Sof merely by its very existence, and use that to "disprove" said characters' Omnipotences.
No. You cannot.
You can write "my XXX character killed Azathoth".
But without proper explanation it means nothing.
No. You cannot.
You can write "my XXX character killed Azathoth".
But without proper explanation it means nothing.
- 32,343
- 20,268
Yes, I could. I could just write it happening. This is what you are doing when you pull Marduk into the discussion, a character that has no bearing on the Fictional Verse of Daimao, yet you feel the need to bring it up. It has no bearing on TLOI and its reality.
Similarly, no true omnipotent, nor omnipotent exists in fiction.
Similarly, no true omnipotent, nor omnipotent exists in fiction.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #100
My mere disagreement with you does not make me dumber than you, and going "You don't understand" and "LOL" means nothing.
You really don't understand. It's you problem, not my.
Again. You arguments are on "Saitama strongest in the fiction" level.
But you don't understand even it.
You really don't understand. It's you problem, not my.
Again. You arguments are on "Saitama strongest in the fiction" level.
But you don't understand even it.
- 165,706
- 73,448
@A6colute As you know, I have high respect for your long-time staff membership, and great contributions to this wiki, but I would appreciate if you make an effort to maintain a civil tone, especially towards other staff members.
- 32,343
- 20,268
"You really don't understand. It's you problem, not my. Again. You arguments are on "Saitama strongest in the fiction" level. But you don't understand even it."
I didn't understand your post because I found it awkwardly written, and couldn't follow its logic. I understand that English is not your primary language, but it is also not mine.
Accusing me of being a "Saitama Wanker" level of debater does absolutely nothing, as they attach false accusations to my arguments, rather than addressing their points.
If your arguments are so logical and sound, and I do believe we are both sound and intelligent guys here, it should be easy to remain civil and prove your point through logic.
I didn't understand your post because I found it awkwardly written, and couldn't follow its logic. I understand that English is not your primary language, but it is also not mine.
Accusing me of being a "Saitama Wanker" level of debater does absolutely nothing, as they attach false accusations to my arguments, rather than addressing their points.
If your arguments are so logical and sound, and I do believe we are both sound and intelligent guys here, it should be easy to remain civil and prove your point through logic.
- 32,343
- 20,268
@Antvasima
Thank you. I don't wish to be in bad blood with anyone here.
Thank you. I don't wish to be in bad blood with anyone here.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #106
Accusing me of being a "Saitama Wanker" level of debater does absolutely nothing, as they attach false accusations to my arguments, rather than addressing their points.
Saitama is just an example.
He is strongest in his verse? Yes.
He is tier 0? No.
But why TLOI tier 0 just because it's strongest in its verse?
We have a lot of High 1-A and even 1-A characters with similar powers. But they are only 1-A, not tier 0.
Saitama is just an example.
He is strongest in his verse? Yes.
He is tier 0? No.
But why TLOI tier 0 just because it's strongest in its verse?
We have a lot of High 1-A and even 1-A characters with similar powers. But they are only 1-A, not tier 0.
- 165,706
- 73,448
Well, if I do not misremember, the way that DarkLK explained the difference between tier High 1-A and tier 0 to me, was simply that High 1-A are limited by other higher or equal beings, or has some minor established limitation to its power.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #109
was simply that High 1-A are limited by other higher or equal beings, or has some minor established limitation to its power.
It's a simplified explanation.
And about "minor established limitation to its power" - TLOI has this limitation. So...
It's a simplified explanation.
And about "minor established limitation to its power" - TLOI has this limitation. So...
- 32,343
- 20,268
My main point is such:
Knowledge is a meaningless concept to beyond dimensional beings, if we were to be truly analytical about it. Human experiences, and all our concepts, understandings, emotions and thoughts, everything that defines us as "human" shouldn't apply to a 1-A. As, per defintion, a Beyond-Dimensional Being is unbound and outside everything. Our concepts shouldn't apply to it, it should be utterly beyond recognition. To ask if it is "Omniscient" or not would be laughable.
Yet that is not how it is in fiction.
Instead, many writers treat 1-A merely as a level of power, and allow for Beyond-Dimensional beings to remain fully human in nature and thought. Demonbane makes a clear divide between Elder and Outer Gods, with the Elder Gods being "Heroes of Justice who fight against evil", and the Outer Gods being "The Evil Gods". And Nyarlathotep acts as a teasing trickster ******. It's a superhero conclict, with the Beyond-Dimensional nature of the characters meaning nothing outside of extra power.
Similarly, I/O has 1-A schoolgirls and nurses, and they still act like their limited 3D selves even after their 1-A status. Their minds and natures are still fully human. So again, 1-A is not being treated as it logically should... And that is okay. It is all fiction and make-belief, we should not hold an exclusive law relating to the nature of beings who's nature is beyond our understanding. See what I mean? Arguing to know how a 1-A is would be the same as arguing that you know the "Nature of God". It's ridiculous and arrogant.
Likewise, if a author wishes to write its "Omnipotent" supreme being as being emotional or human, they have all the right in the world to do so. As long as it fulfills our requirements for Tier 0, which is very simple:
"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
To be a Tier 0 is to be boundlessly above -1-As. That's it. Levels of Infinity, stomping, feats and cross-verse comparisons are not a part of the debate, and never will be. We don't hold a lack of Omniscience as being a weakness in any other Tier or level, so it shouldn't be one for a being who could theoretically do "anything".
Knowledge is a meaningless concept to beyond dimensional beings, if we were to be truly analytical about it. Human experiences, and all our concepts, understandings, emotions and thoughts, everything that defines us as "human" shouldn't apply to a 1-A. As, per defintion, a Beyond-Dimensional Being is unbound and outside everything. Our concepts shouldn't apply to it, it should be utterly beyond recognition. To ask if it is "Omniscient" or not would be laughable.
Yet that is not how it is in fiction.
Instead, many writers treat 1-A merely as a level of power, and allow for Beyond-Dimensional beings to remain fully human in nature and thought. Demonbane makes a clear divide between Elder and Outer Gods, with the Elder Gods being "Heroes of Justice who fight against evil", and the Outer Gods being "The Evil Gods". And Nyarlathotep acts as a teasing trickster ******. It's a superhero conclict, with the Beyond-Dimensional nature of the characters meaning nothing outside of extra power.
Similarly, I/O has 1-A schoolgirls and nurses, and they still act like their limited 3D selves even after their 1-A status. Their minds and natures are still fully human. So again, 1-A is not being treated as it logically should... And that is okay. It is all fiction and make-belief, we should not hold an exclusive law relating to the nature of beings who's nature is beyond our understanding. See what I mean? Arguing to know how a 1-A is would be the same as arguing that you know the "Nature of God". It's ridiculous and arrogant.
Likewise, if a author wishes to write its "Omnipotent" supreme being as being emotional or human, they have all the right in the world to do so. As long as it fulfills our requirements for Tier 0, which is very simple:
"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
To be a Tier 0 is to be boundlessly above -1-As. That's it. Levels of Infinity, stomping, feats and cross-verse comparisons are not a part of the debate, and never will be. We don't hold a lack of Omniscience as being a weakness in any other Tier or level, so it shouldn't be one for a being who could theoretically do "anything".
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #111
"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
boundlessly above absolutely everything
absolutely everything
LTOI is not above absolutely everything.
boundlessly above absolutely everything
absolutely everything
LTOI is not above absolutely everything.
- 1,092
- 919
We use several different interpretations to evaluate everything. I always said we need to use a case by case basis for everything we do. The Law of Identity can qualify for Tier 0 and the only reason why she wouldn't is because there may be some form of limitation to her power. But we will never (likely) ever see this. The series has concluded.
Omniscience should not be a make it or break it to be Tier 0. We do not know that Azathoth is not omniscient when awake because we will never see that happen. So we must quantify it by the material given. What restrictions does LOI really have other than what was already established?
Omniscience should not be a make it or break it to be Tier 0. We do not know that Azathoth is not omniscient when awake because we will never see that happen. So we must quantify it by the material given. What restrictions does LOI really have other than what was already established?
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #113
Knowledge is a meaningless concept to beyond dimensional beings, if we were to be truly analytical about it.
If we think about it:
1. Knowledge = some form of information.
2. Even on High 1-A level exists some form of meta-information.
3. So, even on High 1-A level exists some form of meta-knowledge.
If we think about it:
1. Knowledge = some form of information.
2. Even on High 1-A level exists some form of meta-information.
3. So, even on High 1-A level exists some form of meta-knowledge.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #114
The Law of Identity can qualify for Tier 0 and the only reason why she wouldn't is because there may be some form of limitation to her power. But we will never (likely) ever see this.
Yes. And because of that, we should write "Unknown. At least High 1-A" in its profile.
Yes. And because of that, we should write "Unknown. At least High 1-A" in its profile.
- 32,343
- 20,268
If it qualifies for Tier 0, then it should be Tier 0. Knowledge is meaningless to a Tier 0. Not every Tier 0 needs to fit the Abrahamic God model.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #116
Omniscience should not be a make it or break it to be Tier 0.
Why not?
Different conceptions can be treated like some form of information.
If being limited by some conceptions, that this being cannot be tier 0, right?
But knowledge is some form of information also.
Then why being, who limited in terms of knowledge, can be tier 0?
Why not?
Different conceptions can be treated like some form of information.
If being limited by some conceptions, that this being cannot be tier 0, right?
But knowledge is some form of information also.
Then why being, who limited in terms of knowledge, can be tier 0?
- 32,343
- 20,268
Also, A6colute, stop being obssessed about "Information".
I understand that it is a Big Deal across I/O, but it should not apply to all of fiction.
I understand that it is a Big Deal across I/O, but it should not apply to all of fiction.
- 1,092
- 919
Tier 0s are beyond information and meta-information. It is primary and exists before everything else in its verse. LOI fits these requirements.
- 1,677
- 114
- Thread starter
- #119
but it should not apply to all of fictio
Fiction is an information also.
This wiki is a massive of data also.
All what you write in this thread is information also.
Even thoughts in our brains are information.
Then why we cannot apply conception of information for different fictions?
Fiction is an information also.
This wiki is a massive of data also.
All what you write in this thread is information also.
Even thoughts in our brains are information.
Then why we cannot apply conception of information for different fictions?
- Status
Similar threads
