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Tier 0??

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I see, given what you said above we need to add something to our Tier 0 explanation then. Something like "having no limitations is not enough to qualify for Tier 0" or "0s are boundless beings, indescribable, unthinkable, and ineffable. A tier 0 cannot be defined by a lower being as a High 1-A could." An example would be Divine Presence. Even beings that can understand Sakuya can't understand DP.
 
Also, from what I vaguely remember of my brief previous conversation with DarkLK, TLOI was High 1-A due to stating that it did not know if it could do anything. Then I was told by Matthew that TLOI did not say this.
 
I may, of course, misremember.
 
"0s are boundless beings, indescribable, unthinkable, and ineffable. A tier 0 cannot be defined by a lower being as a High 1-A could."

Yeah, it's a good idea.
 
Also, from what I vaguely remember of my brief previous conversation with DarkLK, TLOI was High 1-A due to stating that it did not know if it could do anything. Then I was told by Matthew that TLOI did not say this.

I don't think that DarkLK lied about it or something.
 
No, she said that. But as Ven said, such a line can be interpreted many different ways. She said she may not be able to do anything but this possibly referred to what Keena wanted (i.e. she may not act depending on what Keena's desire is). The anime omits this completely and has the Identity know what Keena wants before she even tells her.
 
I do not mind changing TLOI to "Unknown. At least High 1-A", and expanding a bit on the tier 0 definition, if everybody agree with it.

However, it may be best to wait for Matthew to respond.
 
I would never accuse DarkLK of lying. I have enormous respect for him. I just thought that it may have been some kind of mistranslation, and did not have the energy to argue when Matthew brought up the issue. I am very overworked in general.
 
I feel the same as Ant. Perhaps I've been looking at this the wrong way. Should treat Tier 0s similary to the example used in the Omnipotence page, "Ein Sof"? That means even the concept of the "Most High God" wouldn't qualify for Tier 0. Would it?
 
That means even the concept of the "Most High God" wouldn't qualify for Tier 0.

Of course.

As I said before, supreme beings can be even 2-C in some franchises.
 
Should treat Tier 0s similary to the example used in the Omnipotence page, "Ein Sof"?

Yeah, "Ein Sof" is a good example of tier 0 character.
 
Also, the answer "Who knows?" seems more like a matter of nonchalantness than one of lacking knowledge.

Also, and this one is more a "me" problem, why does an omnipotent have to be an omniscient too? There's a reason that they're two different terms. We don't make omnipresent a requirement for tier 0.
 
@Cal Ein Sof is a concept in the Kabbalah. Parabrahman is another, similar concept found in the Dharmic tradition.

Tier 0s are not omnipotent. We have this page explaining that.

@AidenBrooks the same can be said for Azathoth, who is mindless. Azzy however, is still Tier 0 dor the reasons listed on its profile.
 
Kami Tenchi has never demonstrated Omniscience or Omnipresence, yet we rank it as Tier 0 and presume he has such abilities.

Azathoth is mindless, and Demonbane Azathoth goes as far as being sealed, yet it is ranked as Tier 0.

The only limitation The Law of Identity has is supposedly not being fully Omniscient based on a single line. It is vastly superior and transcendent in power to even High 1-As or its Verse. Tier 0s are not Omnipotent. They are "Questionably Omnipotent".

It's ridiculous to treat a supposed "lack of Omniscience" as enough of a weakness to not rank something as Tier 0.
 
Apparently, Tiers 0 are supposed to be unknowable. That's the argument here.
 
The very concept of "knowledge" as we understand it is wholly meaningless for a Tier 0 being, so to hold it as a limitation, and treat it as a reason for it not being ranked as Tier 0 makes no logical sense to me.

We don't think any of our Tier 0s can do anything. We don't think any character in fiction is Omnipotent, nor that any character can be Omnipotent. Tier 0 is, at the end of the day, a Tier of power. So if a character is the Verse's sole Supreme Being, fully transcendent over 1-As and High 1-As, they can be considered Tier 0.
 
Knowledge itself only exists because of the Tier 0. The Identity is an inexplicable being as far as I know. Also she did not grant someone the same power as her own, only a similar nature. The full transferral of power is neither here nor there.
 
You can put omnipresence, it was a minor mistake, I apologize.
 
In short, I don't believe a lack of complete Omniscience is enough reasoning to not rank something as "Questionably Omnipotent". Some people out there like to talk about "True Omnipotence", but such a thing is impossible to be portrayed in man-made fiction, and is overall meaningless.

If we were to be honest, beings that exist beyond all levels of dimensional space and time would not act in any way resembling what we see in fiction. They'd be truly incomprehensible and unknowable, and perhaps our human concept of knowledge would hold absolutely no meaning to them.

In my opinion, 1-As who act 100% like humans or similar beings are rather silly, but I won't complain against it cause is fiction, and the writer is allowed to create his character however he likes. The only thing holding TLOI against it, is its lack of Omniscience. Which isn't really a weakness, but just a fact about it.

Similarly, The Writer is more a cosmological concept in Grant Morrison's comics, rather than a fully-formed character. It's hard to put it into words if it is Omnipresent or Omniscient do to its Meta-textual nature. However, if a DC character were to be an Omnipresent, Omniscient, High Outerversal being... They would only be such because they were written as such.
 
But Matt, the argument was also that the Law of Identity made someone the new Law of Identity, and presumably this new Identity has the same power. Ventus however argued that is not the case.
 
"Knowledge itself only exists because of the Tier 0. The Identity is an inexplicable being as far as I know. Also she did not grant someone the same power as her own, only a similar nature. The full transferral of power is neither here nor there." - Ven

@Cal they were debating whether or not The Law of Identity was an inexplicable unknowable being.
 
The Identity cannot be denied. It is the principle that "I am me". It is transcendent in relation to any hierarchy, so quantitative and qualitative superiorites are meaningless. I safely agree with Matt now as usual. Some Tier 0s may be similar to Ein Sof (thr Creator for examples) while others may not.
 
It seems to make sense to me, but would prefer to see what A6colute, and possibly DarkLK, think.
 
In short, I don't believe a lack of complete Omniscience is enough reasoning to not rank something as "Questionably Omnipotent".

Lack in Omniscience sounds like nonsense when we talk about tier 0.

Tier 0 can do anything, but cannot give complete Omniscience to itself... WTF?!

The Identity cannot be denied.

Even tier 2-C characters can easily ignore this principle.

Because even tier 2-C characters is able to exists and not exists in a same time. Characters with local omnipresence for example.
 
Kami Tenchi has never demonstrated Omniscience or Omnipresence

And?

He has never demonstrated lack in Omniscience or lack in Omnipresence, also, right?

Azathoth is mindless, and Demonbane Azathoth goes as far as being sealed, yet it is ranked as Tier 0.

Azathoth can break this seal with easy.

The only limitation The Law of Identity has is supposedly not being fully Omniscient based on a single line.

Not fully omnipotent. Feel the difference.

Tier 0s are not Omnipotent. They are "Questionably Omnipotent".

Even 1-A characters are more "Questionably Omnipotent", than TLOI...
 
True tier 0 knows what it cannot do.

And can do this.

TLOI cannot pass even stage 1 ("knows what it cannot do")...
 
A tier 0 being able to "do anything" is the same argument as an omnipotent can do anything. For all that, we may as well omit the "questionable" part entirely. As Matt said, it is impossible.
 
"Lack in Omniscience sounds like nonsense when we talk about tier 0. Tier 0 can do anything, but cannot give complete Omniscience to itself... WTF?!"

The very concept of knowledge is meaningless to a Tier 0. It's not about what they or cannot do.

"Even tier 2-C characters can easily ignore this principle. Because even tier 2-C characters is able to exists and not exists in a same time. Characters with local omnipresence for example."

You are being dishonest, it cannot be denied by 1-As and High 1-As in its verse.

"And? He has never demonstrated lack in Omniscience or lack in Omnipresence, also, right?"

So one Tier 0 is accepted despite their being even less feats and information regarding its nature and existence?

"Not fully omnipotent. Feel the difference."

No fictional character is fully Omnipotent. Omnipotence does not exist.

"Even 1-A characters are more "Questionably Omnipotent", than TLOI..."

Debating which character is strongest from 1-A onwards is wholly impossible and completely meaningless, unless dealing with a singular Verse. They are not.
 
A tier 0 being able to "do anything" is the same argument as an omnipotent can do anything. For all that, we may as well omit the "questionable" part entirely. As Matt said, it is impossible.

Main problem there:

TLOI doesn't look stonger than most of High 1-A characters. In the same time other tier 0 characters looks far superior than characters like TLOI.
 
Indeed. Why use questionable omnipotence if the requirements are the same as full omnipotence (omnipotence paradox).
 
"True tier 0 knows what it cannot do. And can do this. TLOI cannot pass even stage 1 ("knows what it cannot do")..."

A "Omnipotent Being" is a complete paradox, going beyond even the simple rock paradox. You can create an infinite amount of paradoxes.

For instance: Can an Omnipotent Being allow itself to not be Omnipotent? Or to not know it? And then do it anyway?

It's all vague and meaningless. You are limiting your understanding of Omnipotence to that which I call the "Modern Art God", something vague, formless, devoid of role and personality.

Not all Tier 0s need to resemble Ain Sof, or Umineko's Creator, or the Divine Presence. If a writer wants to give it's ultimate supreme being, even in comparison to High 1-As, a personality, they should be allowed to. To hold an absolute standard across all of fiction is to be limiting and close your eyes to different interpretations and approaches.
 
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