Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake

[Ultima_Reality]

So, this happened. It was an utter mess. We decided to wipe the slate clean.

The topic is obvious: Is the Swirl of the Root a Tier 0? The following is a list of points for and against the proposal.

Points For​

The Root Is Apophatic​

Probably by far the most self-explanatory pieces of information here:

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.” Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin. However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”. To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: 「　」

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 4

Gyazo

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Source: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files, Chapter 18

The above aligns with the following, from the Omnipotence page:

Furthermore, a valid question that some may have is with regards to the status of apophatic theology in relation to the above. Broadly speaking, apophaticism is closely related to the mechanics of Tier 0, insofar as existing beyond all divisions and separations entails an inability to be circumscribed by any singular concept. And historically, the two concepts have also walked hand-in-hand in one way or another. However, in order to qualify for 0 through apophatics, these guidelines must be followed alongside the other conditions for the tier:

1. The incomprehensibility of the character must not come from a contingent limitation of a lower being's intellect, which could conceivably be overcome through some manner of evolution (e.g. The way a 4-dimensional hypercube is incomprehensible to our 3-dimensional brains), but from the fundamental nature of the character.

2. The incomprehensibility in question, obviously, must be correlated to the "power" or "magnitude" of the character. It is perfectly possible for an object to be without any properties (For a strict definition of "property") and yet not be superior to these properties at all. As such, something being stated to be "unknowable," "undefinable," and similar is not grounds for Tier 0 on its own.

3. The incomprehensibility in question must be due to the character fundamentally surpassing the very qualities that would serve as the object of intellection to begin with. Therefore, the statements must not be hyperbolic statements that only serve to underscore how mighty the character is, but must be serious statements on their ontology. Refer back to the quote provided above.

The Root Is Nondual​

English: As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.

Japanese: 法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている。

その恋は一時の夢。
その夢は永遠の名残。
有り得る筈のない、けれど束の間に灯った出会いを、
私は今も眺めている。

雪の夜、遙かな虚空を見るように。

Source: Fate/Grand Order

English: All creation is an illusion. All things are nothingness. Even if this transient world is destroyed, as long as the virtual world remains there will be hope.

Japanese: 万物は幻。 一切は空。現世の世界が滅びようと、電子の世界があれば希望はあります。

Source: Fate/Extra CCC

To examine both quotes, beginning with the second: 万物は幻。一切は空。現世の世界が滅びようと、電子の世界があれば希望はあります。"切は空". "All is emptiness." Emptiness being "空", the Buddhist term "Sunyata."

And the first: 法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。"真空" being "True Emptiness," or "Absolute Emptiness." Same term as above.

The first quote also includes this bit: "世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心", and breaking it down:

心 = (A) mind.

観る = To look, to observe, to watch, etc.

ありのままに = "As it really is."

世 = World

Hence, the localization given: "A mind (心) that contemplates (観る) the world both as it should be (在り方) and as it is (ありのままに)." In turn, "free from binary opposition" is a rendering of "二元対立の分別はなく", broken down as follows:

なく= None, without, etc.

分別 = Judgement, consideration, discernment, etc.

対立 = Opposition.

二元 = Binary, duality.

So, a more exact translation would be "No sense/discernment of binary opposition," which makes clear that the sentence is referring to a mental operation of sorts, in keeping with the rest of it, which talks about a "mind" that contemplates something.

To summarize it all: Everything is illusory. The world, in truth, is emptiness (空). And to attain Nirvana is for the mind to contemplate this emptiness. It sees the world as it really is, which is a state with no binary opposition whatsoever.

And, for the matter, this does refer to the Root, judging by this description:

English: Amala-Vijnana・Kara no Kyoukai**
Rank:
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 1~999
Maximum Targets: 64*** people
An all-party attack that applies the theory of the mystic eyes of direct death, severing the targets' "lines of death".
The sword stroke of the afterlife released from nirvana bestows peace to all existences.

Japanese: 『無垢識・空の境界』
ランク：　種別：対人宝具
レンジ：１～９９９　最大補足：６４人
むくしき・からのきょうかい。
直死の魔眼の理論を応用し、対象の“死の線”を切断する全体攻撃。
彼岸より放たれる幽世の一太刀は、あらゆる生命に安寧を与える。

Source: Fate/Grand Order (Translated Here)

"The Mystic Eyes" in question are a power that's sourced directly from the Root, and this particular description describes their application as 彼岸より放たれる, literally "Released from the other side." Here, the relevant term is "彼岸", which can be translated both as "Nirvana" and as "Other side." A play on words, effectively, which equates the Root to Nirvana itself. Moreover, as Shiki uses this attack, she says:

English: "Dawn is approaching."
"All is a dream... this is the flower of the end.

Japanese: "空が明けるわ。"
"すべては夢と……これが、名残の花よ。

Source: Fate/Grand Order

The word that was translated as "Dawn" in this voice line is "空", once again the Buddhist term for Emptiness, and so the sentence might be more accurately translated as "Emptiness is approaching." Further, she also says:

English: "The end of a dream, huh?"
"Direct Death... Vanish in the interval between Yin and Yang.

Japanese: "夢の終わりね。"
"直死……両儀の狭間に消えなさい。

Source: Fate/Grand Order

Vanishing in "the interval between Yin and Yang" is a reference to the concept of the Taiji, which is explained elsewhere as:

A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.

It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.

Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the “one” at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the “one” are called Liangyi

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji

Add that to the fact Shiki mentions "All is a dream" and "The end of a dream" when using the attack, it's easy to understand what it is referring to: The Root is being identified as both the nondual Emptiness (Nirvana) and as the Taiji, which is the "one" before duality (Shiki's name itself is a play on 両儀, the term for the duality that emerges out of the Taiji).

The aforementioned fact of Nirvana/Emptiness being a state in which the mind no linger discerns or considers any duality whatsoever also ties in with the Root being described as pure intellectual nullity (Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Vol. 3), a total absence of cognition. Thus to "contemplate the Root" (The world as is) is really to eliminate all thought from your mind, and the "True Emptiness" (真空) that's left when this is accomplished, is itself the Root. In fact, the statement above also indicates that the "mind" that contemplates the emptiness is itself the emptiness.

This is in keeping with the apophatic statements done about the its nature, since if contemplating Nirvana/Emptiness/The Root ("The world as it really is") requires one to eliminate all thought and intellection, then there is a correspondence between thought and Maya (The illusion. The world as it appears to be). This, again, fits pretty comfortably into Tier 0, and to know why just requires a cursory knowledge of what the tier is supposed to be. Really, the entire Omnipotence page should inform you on this.

The Root Is Pure Existence​

English: All things have a foundational cause: An absolute first.
The point where the universe began. Yet also the point where it will end.
At this point, there is an 'archive of all things'. Though it is less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence'; not really information, it is 'existence', nothing more.

Japanese: すべての事象には大本になった原因、絶対の一がある。この宇宙のはじまりにしておしまいの地点。

そこには “全てを記録したモノ” がある。記録というよりは “有る” ものだから、情報とは呼べない。ただ “有る” だけ。それ自体に意思はないし、方向性もありえない。原因を垂れ流しているだけの、根源の渦みたいなものね

Source: Tsukihime Remake, Arcueid Route. (1:32:20 and onwards)

This one, again, is basically self-explanatory. You can look at the Omnipotence, or even at some of my previous statements on the matter: A Tier 0 is, indeed, very properly described as "pure existence", "being itself", and so on and so forth. But most of all, this adds to the cumulative case; The world is an illusion, and the Swirl of the Root is its "true state," which is total emptiness and absence of thought. A mind in this state is in intellectual nullity and no longer perceives any duality, not even information, but "existence, nothing more."

Further:

English: Everything that exists in this world flowed from that Maelstrom, and all things derive their current form from it. You and me, bloodsuckers and humans... All nothing more than atoms that originated there.

By now we are all too far removed—too hopelessly complex, to return to that initial cause... Anyway, you should at least be able to understand that such a 'first' exists, right?

Japanese: この宇宙にあるものは、 その渦から流れ、 派生して、今のカタチに行き着いたわ。わたしも志貴も、吸血種も人間も、もとはそこから始まった原子にすぎない。

••••••もう離れすぎ、複雑になりすぎてしまって、原因である始まりに戻ることはできないけど、とにかくそういった “一” があるのは分かるでしょう?

The focus here being the statement that all things are "too hopelessly complex (複雑)" to return to the Root. This indicates that the Root is not more complex than its products, it is less. Elsewhere, this same verbiage is repeated:

Humans are already connected to the source from the moment they are born. Primates have become more complex, more diverse, and have strayed too far from the source, the origin, but there are rare cases of people who are born directly from the source. Colorless souls are born connected to the " ". These are the only beings that can reach the source. So all we have to do is seek it out — and to find it

Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral

Notice the specific phrasing used: "More complex, more diverse" (複雑化し、種類を増やし), which again suggests that the Root is less diverse than the world. This is in keeping with the statements regarding it having no binary opposition, or anything graspable by thought (As thought is in the realm of illusion, as mentioned previously).

Elsewhere, we are explicitly informed of what exactly "returning to the Root" means:

English: "What did you mean about how there haven't been any survivors?"
"I meant that no one's ever come in contact with the Root and made it back to talk about it. Not a single person in the entire world..."
"Coming in contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human simply 'returns to the source', so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root."

Japanese: 「蒼崎。一人も生還者がいないって、どういう事だ？」

「根源に触れて、帰ってきた者は一人もいないの。世界規模でね。触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」

Source: Witch on the Holy Night (Script)

Gyazo

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral (RAW)

A relevant term in the first scans being "消滅", which means annihilation, extinction, termination, etc. Thus, a "return to the Root" (Enlightenment) is simply the annihilation of the individual self.

The Root Is Beyond Infinity​

English: Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.

Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.

However, without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.

If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.

…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.

Japanese: 閉ざされた空間、マンションの壁と壁の間にもうけた異界の中で目を覚ました彼女は、その腕でありえない空間 の、ありえない壁を斬ったのだ。

無限は、「　」ではない。無限を無限たらしめるには有限を定めなくてはいけないのだ。有限がなければ無限 など存在しない。物事には果てがあるから、無限という事柄が観測される。両儀式は放りこまれた無限の中で、 ありえない有限を視つけだして断ち切った。

だが無論、無限の中には有限などない。存在しないものは斬れないが故に、あの檻は脱出が不可能なのである 。 しかし――有限がなければ、無限はないのだ。有限の壁が無かったにせよ有ったにせよ、両儀式の前にはそん な果てのない世界など意味をなさない。

有限が本当になければ、それは無限などではなく「　」であり。有限を内包しているのなら、式はそれを視つ けだして断ち切ってしまう。

……絶対の筈の黒い穴は、この相手にだけはただの狭い暗室にすぎなかったのだと、魔術師は

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 2

To sum it up: The Root is not infinite, because infinity is contrasted with limits and finitude. The Root, however, is not contrasted with anything, and therefore is properly speaking beyond even infinity. This coheres with this part of the Omnipotence page:

Thus, a Tier 0 not only utterly transcends 1-A, but also transcends even the distinction between 1-A and below-1-A, and furthermore also the distinction between 1-A and High 1-A, and between any conceivable levels of the latter tier as well. Moreover, whereas all such tiers have "inverse" versions of themselves (For instance, a 1-A finds its inverse in a 11-C character who is qualitatively ''inferior'' to conventional reality), Tier 0 can have no such counterpart, as it is too all-encompassing to have any sort of opposite lying outside of itself.

Furthermore, notice this bit of the statement: "If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything." So: As long as it has limits, the Mystic Eyes can kill it. This is not even limited to things that are alive or dead. If it moves, and can be destroyed, it can be ended. This is explained to be because:


Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine


Source: Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

So: Everything is imperfect. Nothing is absolutely perfect. Therefore, everything will die someday; it is held together by "seams." The Mystic Eyes work by cutting the seams of a given thing and thus actualizing its inevitable end. And as seen before, the Swirl of the Root is that very end, "death," the nothingness to which they return. So, obviously, it is excluded from that list of things. It is absolutely perfect. It will never have an end. The language of "seams" itself is interesting in that context, since if the Swirl of the Root has no seams whatsoever, then that means it is held together by nothing. It is self-sufficient.

---

Bear in mind, the following statement is not an evaluation (As I haven't gone over the counterpoints, yet) so much as a simple statement of fact: As far as positive evidence goes, all of the above scans make the Swirl of the Root into an exemplary Tier 0. It, quite literally, checks all the boxes. Not debatable in the slightest.

The only way around the above, thus, is to argue that the information is contradicted. Arguing that the information is simply insufficient is not an option, because it is indeed more than sufficient.

Now, as for the other side...

Points Against​

The Hole To The Root​

So:

In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything

"Ah, yes. I must tell you what that shadow is before anything else. In short, that is the content of the Holy Grail. People say the Holy Grail is an omnipotent pot, but the Holy Grail we aim for is not a pot. The Holy Grail is only a means. Einzbern, Makiri, and Tohsaka. What the three families aim for is to open a gate using the complete Holy Grail.
You can think of the complete Holy Grail as a gate to connect this world to a world where every wish comes true."
"...Hold on. Then the Holy Grail is..."
"Yes. The goal of every magus is to reach the origin. But I am not interested in such a thing. The Einzberns only thought for the completion of the Holy Grail. Tohsaka is the only family of magi that is still aiming for the origin."

Source: Fate / Stay Night

Basically, mages want to reach the Swirl of the Root. In particular, the two quotes above describe a process in which the Holy Grail creates a "gate" to the Root. The idea is that, when this hole is opened, you can reach the Root (The "other side") and tap into unlimited quantities of unused mana contained in there.

"The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach." "Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

"But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy. The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."

Source: Fate / Stay Night

At face value, this contradicts the immutability that is required of a Tier 0, insofar as it seems to be describing a process where a gate to the Root is opened so that you can obtain something lying around in there. The very idea of creating a "gate" or a "hole" to a so-called Tier 0, of course, is also pretty suspicious. A Tier 0 is not an object in a set of objects, so accessing it through a portal in the same way you go to another universe is incoherent.

Elsewhere, this same process is described in similar terms. Moreover, True Magic is distinguished from magecraft as coming directly from the Root (Pay attention to the "Sun" comparisons):

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

"So... Magic is more amazing than magecraft. I think I get the general idea but... It's really limited?"

"Kinda. It's more like an exception a special privilege or an abuse of power. It's not versatile but in making the impossible possible it's all-powerful as far as magecraft is concerned." "Magic is like a reward a mage gets when reaching the Swirl of the Root and that even goes for mages who don't possess the mettle to wield it. Just making a path to the Root gives them free reign to use it in magecraft terms. In short it's like becoming the richest person in the world."

"The richest person in the world... In which case does it mean that no matter how rich you are only the richest person gets to have Magic?"

"...I guess so sure. ...Sometimes you sure get to the right conclusion from the weirdest of places. It's like you said-there are many routes and theories to reach the Root but unless you're first to the post Magic will elude you. No matter how good you are if you're not the first you're everyone else."

"There are only five... no four Magicians. And there are only four because once that path to the Root has been taken by one Magician it's closed off to all others. But it wasn't always like that in ancient times. Ironically mankind is responsible for closing off the paths to the Root; we've built walls that stand between us and the 'truth.'"

"The mages of old could never have imagined that the more we explored the unknown the more paths we would seal off. But the result was exactly that and by the time they realized it it was too late. After all that studying True Magic had all but disappeared from the world."

Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

And later on, obtaining True Magic is described as "To see, touch and understand" the Root:

English: "The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

Japanese: 根源の渦っていうのは、全ての叡知えいちが記録された位置、全ての事柄が決定された場所。そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね

Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

Overall, this is the strongest piece of counterevidence presented to the proposal.

The People In The Root​

What do you know, this objection comes from the exact same quote as one of the pieces of evidence for Tier 0! Namely:

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 4

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 3

So, basically, Ryougi Shiki actually floated in the Root for a while. The argument, thus, being that this contradicts the idea that the Root is totally undifferentiated, since Shiki was in it while maintaining the distinction between herself and the Root.

Elsewhere (Fate/Grand Order, specifically), the same seems to occur:

???	Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?
???	If you're dreaming, go back to where you came from.
???	This is a place without boundaries. You have a name, so you shouldn't be here.
Choices	Well, I woke up here... I didn't come here because I wanted to...
???	You didn't want to be here? In that case... Hehe, sorry.
???	Looks like our connection was made from this side. Let me apologize while I can, Fujimaru.
???	I'm asleep and thus unaware of what's going on outside. But I can take a guess.
???	I'm sure it's just another hack-and-slash type of case without a hint of romance.
???	What a disaster, busy Master. But it's a good thing to have things you can do, things you must do.
???	...Yes, rather than talk about myself, I would love to talk more about your future, but...
???	Too bad, the night is almost over. Seems like this dream is about to end.
???	If we meet again, could you please call me by my name?

BB and The Root​

So:

English: The mother of the earth goddesses who created the Earth. In other words, the "root" of all things.

An Anti-World Noble Fantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3-D printer that crushes the previous world with the world desired by the user.

Japanese: 大地を創造した地母神たちの母にあたる女神とは、即ち、万物を生み出した 「根源」 である。

この宝具はその情報を超精密立体プリンターとして出力し、使用者の望むままの世界で、いまある世界を握りつぶす対界宝具である。

Source: Fate Extra/CCC

Source: Fate Extra/CCC

The argument here is that the "mother of the earth goddesses" up there is the Swirl of the Root. This chick was able to obtain the power of that Goddess, stored away in a giant supercomputer, and through it successfully "digitize" the "nothingness before life," again argued to be the Root itself. To quote the maker of that argument:

I think it presents a few problems. The first is that a supercomputer shouldn't be able to analyze, digitize, and then emulate an ineffable monad or replicate it's powers. Moreover, the Root is identified as being a specific Goddess whose power was passed down to some of the most powerful beings in the verse, and these powers of the Root -- too -- can be digitized and recreated.

The association with the Root itself comes from two points: Firstly, the emphasis on the term "根源" (Root) in the above description. Secondly, the similarities in the following two descriptions:

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."

"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

ORT and The Throne of Heroes​

https://imgur.com/vCPe3rv

Source: Fate/Grand Order

So, ORT can damage and interfere with the Heroic Spirits recorded in the Throne of Heroes. Of the Throne of Heroes, the following is stated:

https://imgur.com/a/GQvYNSu

Source: Fate/Grand Order

The argument, thus, being:

1) ORT can meddle with the Throne of Heroes.

2) The Throne of Heroes is in the Root

3) ORT can reach into the Root and affect it.

Microcosm Root​

English: "Yes, that is the ability of Shiki. The same as Asagami Fujino, a special channel that allows you to see things differently from ordinary people. A special eye that can catch a glimpse of the microcosm of the world, called the 'primordial vortex.'

Japanese:「そう、それが式の能力よ。浅上藤乃と同じ、人とは違ったモノが見れる特殊なチャンネル。根源の渦という世界の縮図を垣間見られる特別な眼。

　けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ――わたし自身が、その渦なのかもし れないわ」

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

The Swirl of the Root is referred to as 世界の縮図, literally "A microcosm of the world." The argument, thus, being that the Root is a small part of a larger, unknown structure ("The world")

The Root and Dimensional Theory​

English: In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything.

Japanese: 神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。 あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

Source: Fate/Stay Night

The focus here being twofold. Firstly, there is this sentence: "次元論の頂点"

"次元論" = Dimensional theory. Theory of dimensions.

"頂点" = Apex, summit, pinnacle.

Secondly, there's this: あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標. "座標" meaning "Coordinate," referring to the Root.

So, the objection raised is that the Root is not above space and time, simply at the apex of it.

The Akashic Records Change?​

English: To answer the question of ‘if he doesn’t travel with his physical body, how could he be a Dead Apostle?’—as someone who has inherited the Hemonomic Principle of one of the 27 Ancestors, he has been corrupted on the soul-level, so it's impossible for him not to be.

Vampirification is not the transformation of the body, but of existence. It’s like if the entry in the Akashic Records that read ‘human’ changed class to ‘Dead Apostle’—to become a vampire in one’s very being.

Japanese: 生身じゃないなら死徒じゃないんじゃないの？という質問には、二十七祖の原理血戒を受け継いでしまったため魂レベルで汚染されているので無理、と返すように。
吸血鬼化なんてものは肉体の変容ではなく存在の変容である。アカシックレコードにある“人間”という記述が“死徒”にクラスチェンジしてしまったようなもの。もう生き物として“吸血鬼”なのである。

Source: TYPE-MOON Manuscript - Zelretch Kishur Schweinorg, p.033-035

As seen above, the Akashic Records are the Root, ergo etc.

The Root and Time Acceleration​

English: Norikata Emiya (Person's name)
Kiritsugu’s father. His family thaumaturgy involved time manipulation inside the body or possibly small cause-and-effect, and he was a genius who in only the fourth generation, a relatively shallow generation, rose to the rank of gaining a Sealing Designation.

Spent more than 20 years hiding from the pursuit of the Magic Association, and finally hid himself on a small southern island. Though Norikata’s wife died at the hands of the Magic Association’s hunters, Kiritsugu, who had just been born at the time, has no memory of the incident.

Accelerating or slowing the flow of time inside a Reality Marble free from the world’s interference is the thaumaturgy of the Emiya family. But after investigating it thoroughly, Norikata found that, in a Bounded Field that was minimized until resistance was almost zero, the flow of time could be accelerated without limit, and reaching the Root would be possible, right before observing the universe’s end.

Although the theory itself was very promising, finishing the experiment would still require several hundreds of years. In order to resolve the issue of life span, he decided to explore the methods of becoming a Dead Apostle.

The tragedy that arose as a result was the story narrated at the beginning of Volume 4 of Zero.

Japanese: 衛宮矩賢【人名】
衛宮切嗣の父。体内、あるいは小因果の時間操作に特化した家伝の魔術を、4代目という比較的浅い世代において封印指定の域にまで昇華させた天才。
20年以上に渉って魔術協会の追跡をかわし続け、最後は南国の小さな島に身を潜めていた。彼の妻もまた魔術協会からの追っ手によって命を落としているのだが、その経緯は、当時生まれて間もない切嗣の記憶にはない。
世界によって干渉されない固有結界の内側において時間の流れを加速あるいは停滞させるのが衛宮家の魔術だが、矩賢はこれを突き詰め、抵抗がほぼゼロに等しくなるは、ど極小まで縮めた結界の中で、時間流を無限に加速させ、宇宙の終烏を観測することでその先にあるはずの『根源』に至ろうと企んでいた。埋論そのものはかなり有望だったのだが、実験を完遂するためには数百年の期間が必要とされ、やむなく彼は寿命の問題を解決するべく死徒化の手段を模索しはじめる。
その結果もたらされた惨劇は、Zero4巻の冒頭に描かれた通り。

Source: Fate/Zero Material - Encyclopedia: Emiya Norikata, p.093

So, basically: A guy planned to reach the Root by accelerating time infinitely until he reached the end of the universe. The objection being that this should be impossible if the Root is beyond time.

A small detail, also: The English translation seems to say that, through this method, he would reach the Root right before seeing the end of the universe. The Japanese phrasing is a bit different, though: "宇宙の終烏を観測することでその先にあるはずの『根源』に至ろうと企んでいた".

This seems to more literally say that he was planning to reach the Root by observing the end of the universe, because the Root is what lies beyond the universe's death. That "right before observing the universe’s end." seems to be exclusive to the translation, and to reverse the sense of the original text. Overall, though, translator's opinions would be appreciated.

Arcueid and the Root​

https://imgur.com/a/d4U9fVZ

Source: Melty Blood, Chapter 26

https://imgur.com/a/tzLPxQv

https://imgur.com/a/JiZ6DW9

Source: Melty Blood, Agitator Route (Script)

So, basically: A guy disappeared into the Root. Supposedly, he kept "existing" in some fashion afterwards (As a part of it, the argument goes), and Arcueid can both bring him back from this state and kill him. The objection runs thus: Arcueid can affect the Root and kill something in the same state as it.

Then there's this:

https://imgur.com/a/Ns37XYz

Source: Melty Blood

I've been told that the guy in question was basically planning to use 30% of Arcueid's power to become part of the Root and then rewrite it himself. I don't see the Root being mentioned anywhere in those scans, but I'll leave that to be discussed by the supporters.

---

So, all-in-all: Is the Root Tier 0? For that question, I'll leave a tally below:

Yea:

Nay:

Neutral:

 

[Ultima_Reality]

After all this, comes my personal evaluation, but before that, comes a clarification on certain principles. To quote something from the previous thread:

I don't really think it does jive better, because neither interpretations actually contradict what we know about the Root.

As demonstrated above, "what we know about the Root" is that it is described as having every single feature that is expected of a Tier 0. The statements about it might as well come from a philosophy textbook in how direct they are. Given these major pieces of information that, from what I see, Type-Moon constantly reiterates, it is absolutely fair to read other statements in light of them. That's just the principle of charity.

So, subdividing this by topic:

People in the Root​

To quote someone else from the previous thread:

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

The quote for this being:

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 3

With that in mind, let's look at how this experience of the Root is described:

it was dark there, and the bottom was dark. I realized that all that surrounded me was darkness, and I accepted that I had died. Floating in the ocean with no light or sound. Naked and without any decorations, the humanoid figure named Ryougi sinks down.

There was no end. Well, maybe it wasn't falling in the first place. Because there's nothing here. It's not that there's no light, there's not even darkness. I can't see anything because there's nothing. It doesn't even make sense to fall. There is probably no such thing as nothing. Even my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless. When I am naked, the colors are so poisonous that I want to turn away. Everything that “is” here is too poisonous.

So, I believe everyone can notice a pattern: Shiki gives descriptions of the experience, and then immediately after, she denies all of them. In order:

"It was a dark there, and the bottom was dark" —> "It's not that there's no light, there's not even darkness."

"Floating in the ocean with no light or sound. Naked and without any decorations, the humanoid figure named Ryougi sinks down." —> "There was no end. Well, maybe it wasn't falling in the first place. It doesn't even make sense to fall."

"I can't see anything because there's nothing." —> "There is probably no such thing as nothing."

And then finally, she ends by negating all description of it: "Even my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless."

And again:


Source: Kara no Kyoukai: the Garden of Sinners, Volume 4, Chapter 22. (RAW)

So: Shiki was not physically in the Root. She's just comatose and having a vision of it (Though, to add to that: "More than seeing, she felt it"). And even this "vision" is extremely abstract, since, as you can see, she says quite literally nothing at all about it. All the descriptions she gives are immediately negated and recognized as false and inapplicable. So what we're left with is an individual still in the physical world just "gazing" into the Swirl of the Root and "feeling" it in some cryptic way. That is hardly an anti-feat.

To take a quote from the OP:

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea.

There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real.

Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me.

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

This entire exchange seems to characterize Shiki's situation as some sort of struggle between life and death, with "life" being her existing at all and "death" being the Root. She even says "I felt my mind about to lose its grip," indicating that she's on the brink of annihilating herself into the Root, as we know happens to people who come in contact with it, but still not quite there yet. The fact she is still existent, just comatose, also should probably tell us that she hasn't gone all the way in that process.

KnK itself looks like it informs us as much elsewhere, because, as previously mentioned: the Root is pure intellectual nullity. It's the total absence of thought. Yet Shiki is here, obviously still thinking and reasoning.

Elsewhere, it is also stated that you can get "close" to the Root without actually making contact with it, and this results in some sort of destabilization that happens before you're annihilated by proper contact:

English: "That's why not even the greatest mages in history dared to touch it. Just coming close is enough to send them frantically trying to stabilize their magecraft."

Japanese: 「なんで、どんなに歴史に名を残した魔術師でも、あれにだけは触れていないわ。せいぜい間近にして、大急ぎで自分の魔術を安定させた程度だもの」

Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

And as we already know: The Root is not some object existing parallel to the world. It is the world. Or, more precisely: It is "the world as is," which you begin contemplating when your mind stops perceiving duality and binary opposition. It's the very emptiness that arrives when you eliminate all thought and intellect from your mind.

Putting this information together, I think what's happening is pretty obvious: Shiki is not actually in the Root as if she was in some other place. She's just in a state where her cognition of everything apart from herself has been eliminated ("For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world"), with the last thing she has to hold on to being her own selfhood, which even then is starting to break down ("I felt my mind about to slip").

And, as for the Fate/Grand Order thing: Seems to be the same thing. The main character is having a dream, and in this dream, he appears in the Root. He is not actually physically there, and obviously hasn't ceased to exist. And to my mind this is made doubly obvious by how, as far as I see, the Root not being some object parallel to the world is information from F/GO itself.

The Hole in the Root​

So, the most problematic aspect of this whole thing is the "Large quantities of unushed mana" that are mentioned as being in the Root. If the Root is some piñata that you can poke into, so that stuff from inside of it starts gushing out, then that's obviously an issue. That said, from a glance I find this suspicious on two accounts:

Firstly because, from what I see, that statement is done by a character who has no actual experience with the Root itself. She has never been there, and that much was confirmed to me explicitly in the past thread.

Meanwhile, we actually have the testimony of a character who has gazed into the Root: Shiki. And as we've already extensively seen, she is very explicit in saying that the Root is nothing at all. There are no huge reserves of energy anywhere to be seen, according to her. So, weighing up the quality of the evidence, it looks like the "large quantities of mana" just don't exist in the Root at all. Furthermore:

"The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach." "Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

"But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy. The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."

Source: Fate / Stay Night

It looks like the text is pretty explicit in saying that the "hole" in question is just the first step taken. The actual path to the Root is still too distant even then, and the "large quantities of unused mana" are something obtained from that first step, not from inside the Root (Because, as we've already seen, the Root has nothing at all). So, yeah, this is not a problem in any way.

As for the "hole to the Root" itself: Well, see this post. I've already said before (In multiple occasions) that certain cosmologies do allow for some sort of "access" to a Tier 0, and Type-Moon seems to be exactly that kind of cosmology, as shown in the OP. So, given that, I don't believe there being paths to the Root is actually problematic in-and-of-itself.

To add to that:

Then why are there people who have been able to reach the root? The answer is simple. There is no way to reach it. There are simply people who can reach it. What wisdom can we learn?

In the end, magic is nothing more than an acquired skill. That's what talent is. You either have it when you're born or you don't. It's the difference between being chosen and not. Humans are already connected to the source from the moment they are born. Primates have become more complex, more diverse, and have strayed too far from the source, the origin, but there are rare cases of people who are born directly from the source.

Colorless souls are born connected to the " ". These are the only beings that can reach the source. So all we have to do is seek it out --- and to find it

Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral

So the only way to reach the Root, even with the above factors in mind, is effectively through privilege. Sufficient safeguarding, as far as I'm concerned.

The Root and Dimensional Theory​

This would imply that the Root is literally a physical location, which seems plainly contradicted by a lot of other statements (Including Shiki's gazing into it)

The Akashic Records Change?​

"It’s like if" is one hell of a word. That, alone, makes the statement not very solid in my eyes. Would be overridden by other pieces of information, especially seeing as the Root's records, from what I see, are explicitly stated to not even be information, but "existence, nothing more." There being "entries" of things in there doesn't seem to make much sense.

The Root and Time Acceleration​

The idea here seems to be basically that, since the universe is inevitably going to end and then dissolve into the nothingness of the Root, a possible method of reaching the Root would be by accelerating through that and skipping right to the end.

It's interesting, to say the least, but I'm not sure if that's an anti-feat, considering it's not actually affecting the Root but just trying to reach it by sending yourself to the natural death of all substances. Maybe an argument would be "If the dissolution of all things into the Root is itself a temporal process, then that's kinda weird," but I'd have to dwell a little on it.

Would also have to take into account whether that experiment was ever actually successful, in-universe. There's already a scan up there which quite explicitly says that there isn't really such a thing as a "way to reach the Root," just people who are born with a direct connection to the Root and are thus the only beings that can attain it. Seems to basically indicate that any formulation of methods and skills is irrelevant when it comes to that.

BB and the Root​

I'll let the supporters debate this one, since it heavily hinges on in-universe things that are outside my scope as an external observer of the verse.

ORT and the Throne​

Same as above.

Microcosm Root​

Same as above. Seems weird, though, seeing as the Root elsewhere is described as "an absolute first."

Arcueid and the Root​

Same as above. Although, I will say: If it is the case that Zepia disappeared into the Root and yet still remained "existing" in some fashion, as something of the same state of existence as it, and Arcueid in turn can both kill him and bring him out of that state, then, yeah. Massively problematic.

Until these are resolved, I'm neutral on the proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Oh, yeah. There were things from the past thread that I ended up not adding to the OP due to a few misunderstandings. I'll be adding them to it shortly.

 

[Deagonx]

I am on vacation and won't be able to participate until Wednesday, at the earliest, just as a heads up.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Oh, yeah. There were things from the past thread that I ended up not adding to the OP due to a few misunderstandings. I'll be adding them to it shortly.

They've been added, and I've edited my evaluation to address them.