Throwing Speed

[Arnoldstone18]

Why not just assume the value of 93% SoL for those FTL throws?

 

[DontTalkDT]

While what the OP says seem straightforward to most of us, I do have a follow up question:

While our current site rules say "no speed values higher than SOL (or technically 93% c) be used for KE for attack potency determination purpose", can we substitute a cap of speed of light for such purpose?

Say if a character can throw an object at a relativistic speed and such KE can be used for attack potency,
would another character that throws the same object at a FTL speed have a KE yield be used for attack potency
But instead of using the FTL speed value, we cap them at relativistic KE at ~93% c?

Hope you understand what I ask.
Because it is counterintuitive a character throwing an object at FTL speed (ceteris paribus) is "shown to be weaker" than another character throwing an object at a lower speed.

No. This was debated like 10 times already.
I'm very tempted to make a discussion rule against "let's have FTL KE" at this point.

 

[KLOL506]

Why not just assume the value of 93% SoL for those FTL throws?

Because then you'd be lying about its true speed. Common sense, man.

 

[Jasonsith]

Because then you'd be lying about its true speed. Common sense, man.

This is more like capping the KE without using FTL speed values which would go against our site rules.

Anything within the 93% SoL to right below SoL without any mention of relativity being used 4x the Newtonian KE, doesn't it?


At that time I had no idea that at speeds beyond 93% c right up until SoL itself we'd just use the normal KE formula and then multiply with 4x. The multiplier is an arbitrary value, sure, but the basis of the multiplier is to prevent excessive deviation into absurdly high kinetic energy values due to relativity, unless otherwise stated that relativity is taking effect.


Something something anything FTL violates the laws of physics by default or something but then again, so does most of fiction.

I do hope that capping the KE for FTL objects at ~93% c can resolve the hassle without breaking or forcing to amend any existing rules while at the same time remove the embarrassment by a guy throwing objects at relativistic speed stronger than one throwing objects FTL.

And for the nth time, even my suggestion does not use any FTL speed values.

 

[KLOL506]

No. This was debated like 10 tiimes already.

It should prolly have a rule made then.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah cuz people like me who are just hearing about the fact there were many arguments made before would just keep making more of the same arguments.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I do hope that capping the KE for FTL objects at ~93% c can resolve the hassle without breaking or forcing to amend any existing rules while at the same time remove the embarrassment by a guy throwing objects at relativistic speed stronger than one throwing objects FTL.

And for the nth time, even my suggestion does not use any FTL speed values.

The 93% value only exists because we acknowledge our error bars. Its relevance is in the fact that we know that our calcs don't measure speed extremely precisely. Close to lightspeed a 1% error on the speed measurement can make the KE hundred, thousand or million of times greater than its actual result. Hence we have a cap for the relativistic gamma so that our errors aren't infinitely amplified.
However, as the note mentions, "an exception to this rule would be if a specific value is explicitly stated". If we have a reliable statement of the speed without measurement error we actually use relativistic KE as is proper, even in this area.
It's not that we don't acknowledge the fact that relativistic energy also applies in these realms, as physics indicates.

And with that, this entire idea falls in the water because the idea "FTL KE should be higher than all less than lightspeed KE" doesn't work, as less than lightspeed KE goes towards infinite as the speed increases to the speed of light. So the only way to have FTL KE always above less than lightspeed KE would be to rank them all as having infinite power, which is obviously ridiculous.
In other words, no matter which below lightspeed value you equal FTL KE to there will always be a below lightspeed value with greater KE than this, contradicting the entire idea of that FTL KE should be higher than the below lightspeed counterpart.

To that comes that it amounts to inventing new physics to calc physics-defying feats, which is generally a big no no.
We have some practices of similar nature, but they are limited to giving the most obvious common sense ratings out of a necessity of giving obviously impressive feats an at least somewhat matching rating (like moving a planet FTL being planet level). Not for comparably unintuitive ratings like pushing around Earth being Star level. Or moving a human being Island level.

 

[KLOL506]

The 93% value only exists because we acknowledge our error bars. Its relevance is in the fact that we know that our calcs don't measure speed extremely precisely. Close to lightspeed a 1% error on the speed measurement can make the KE hundred, thousand or million of times greater than its actual result. Hence we have a cap for the relativistic gamma so that our errors aren't infinitely amplified.
However, as the note mentions, "an exception to this rule would be if a specific value is explicitly stated". If we have a reliable statement of the speed without measurement error we actually use relativistic KE as is proper, even in this area.
It's not that we don't acknowledge the fact that relativistic energy also applies in these realms, as physics indicates.

And with that, this entire idea falls in the water because the idea "FTL KE should be higher than all less than lightspeed KE" doesn't work, as less than lightspeed KE goes towards infinite as the speed increases to the speed of light. So the only way to have FTL KE always above less than lightspeed KE would be to rank them all as having infinite power, which is obviously ridiculous.
In other words, no matter which below lightspeed value you equal FTL KE to there will always be a below lightspeed value with greater KE than this, contradicting the entire idea of that FTL KE should be higher than the below lightspeed counterpart.

To that comes that it amounts to inventing new physics to calc physics-defying feats, which is generally a big no no.
We have some practices of similar nature, but they are limited to giving the most obvious common sense ratings out of a necessity of giving obviously impressive feats an at least somewhat matching rating (like moving a planet FTL being planet level). Not for comparably unintuitive ratings like pushing around Earth being Star level. Or moving a human being Island level.

There should also prolly be another rule that states to not apply finite speed KE to stuff being moved at FTL KE.

 

[DontTalkDT]

There should also prolly be another rule that states to not apply finite speed KE to stuff being moved at FTL KE.

Isn't that covered by the

Since the energy would approach infinity towards the speed of light it also isn't allowed to use relativistic speed as an approximation for the kinetic energy of faster than light objects, since by using an approximation close enough to the speed of light any given value could be reached through that method.

part?

 

[KLOL506]

Isn't that covered by the

part?

Hmmmmmmm, didn't see it, which page is this on again? And the Throwing Speed stuff?

EDIT: NVM, found the relativistic part on the KE Feats page.

 

[Jasonsith]

There should also prolly be another rule that states to not apply finite speed KE to stuff being moved at FTL KE.

This I refuse.

Otherwise this will result in a ridicule that weaker attackers that move objects at slower speeds (say any value relativistic) will have a resulting KE higher than the stronger ones who move objects at higher speeds.

How does anyone who refuse to apply finite speed KE to stuff being moved at FTL KE otherwise resolve such ridicule? Let the ridicule happen and people begin to manipulate the feat parameters for the sake of abiding rules without the slightest adjustment appropriate?

I can accept FTL speed values not being used for calculation of objects moving at (Newtonian) FTL KE, but capping at a finite speed for KE stuff being moved at FTL KE should be fair enough.

The idea "less than lightspeed KE goes towards infinite as the speed increases to the speed of light - so the only way to have FTL KE always above less than lightspeed KE would be to rank them all as having infinite power" comes from the idea that relativistic mass increases as well. If we are capping the relativistic KE for objects moving at sufficiently high relativistic speed, I do not see anything wrong on having a cap on FTL speeds. If you want to lower the cap to 1% c instead of ~93% c, I am fine.

We have another rule on resultant damage to control any ridiculously high KE from being accepted anyway.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And the Throwing Speed stuff?

Oh yeah. Since I believe everyone agreed I have added it.

 

[KLOL506]

This I refuse.

Otherwise this will result in a ridicule that weaker attackers that move objects at slower speeds (say any value relativistic) will have a resulting KE higher than the stronger ones who move objects at higher speeds.

How does anyone who refuse to apply finite speed KE to stuff being moved at FTL KE otherwise resolve such ridicule? Let the ridicule happen and people begin to manipulate the feat parameters for the sake of abiding rules without the slightest adjustment appropriate?

I can accept FTL speed values not being used for calculation of objects moving at (Newtonian) FTL KE, but capping at a finite speed for KE stuff being moved at FTL KE should be fair enough.

The idea "less than lightspeed KE goes towards infinite as the speed increases to the speed of light - so the only way to have FTL KE always above less than lightspeed KE would be to rank them all as having infinite power" comes from the idea that relativistic mass increases as well. If we are capping the relativistic KE for objects moving at sufficiently high relativistic speed, I do not see anything wrong on having a cap on FTL speeds. If you want to lower the cap to 1% c instead of ~93% c, I am fine.

We have another rule on resultant damage to control any ridiculously high KE from being accepted anyway.

Unfortunately it's outta my hand it seems. The rule was apparently always there in the KE Feats page. If you wish to change this you can make a separate CRT for this instead, though I doubt that will go anywhere given DontTalkDT's stance on this.

 

[Jasonsith]

Oh yeah. Since I believe everyone agreed I have added it.

For the things everyone agrees yeah.

Unfortunately it's outta my hand it seems. The rule was apparently always there in the KE Feats page. If you wish to change this you can make a separate CRT for this instead, though I doubt that will go anywhere given DontTalkDT's stance on this.

Okay. And I will try to structure it in "less offensive wordings".

 

[DontTalkDT]

The idea "less than lightspeed KE goes towards infinite as the speed increases to the speed of light - so the only way to have FTL KE always above less than lightspeed KE would be to rank them all as having infinite power" comes from the idea that relativistic mass increases as well. If we are capping the relativistic KE for objects moving at sufficiently high relativistic speed, I do not see anything wrong on having a cap on FTL speeds. If you want to lower the cap to 1% c instead of ~93% c, I am fine.

That's putting a random as hell value on it for no good reason whatsoever.
And we are generally not capping KE for things moving at relativistic KE. As explained, we are only doing so for speed values which have a margin of error.
If you're reliably stated to go 99.99999999% the speed of light you can still get those incredibly high values in principle.

 

[Jasonsith]

That's putting a random as hell value on it for no good reason whatsoever.
And we are generally not capping KE for things moving at relativistic KE. As explained, we are only doing so for speed values which have a margin of error.
If you're reliably stated to go 99.99999999% the speed of light you can still get those incredibly high values in principle.

I have looked up the equation. I understand your concern. Yes the relativistic KE can go ridiculously high as the speed go towards speed of light as we apply the relativistic KE model.

And unfortunately my concern is not resolved and will not be resolved here, nor is this thread by now a proper place to do so.

Nevertheless thank you all for what agreed upon and applied.

(In fact there is another matter of concern but this will go a bit outside the scope of what we have we have discussed here and this should be discussed elsewhere.)