This is probably a very bad idea.

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

8-C Frisk vs a 9-C Thing in a human body. Fight happens in the judgement hall. Speed Equalized. I don't have anything else to say. This is probably a horrible stomp, but I'm curious to see what happens.

The Thing

Frisk

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

SAVE

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

"oh hey I die every time this thing touches me even slightly"

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

LOAD

"Woo, finally found some flamethrowers and killed it"

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Yeah, it occured to me right after posting that the Thing's possession won't touch the soul. GG bad idea.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Monarch

That's blatantly false.

For one, the Thing doesn't exactly "kill" what it touches, it converts their cells into cells of its own, before taking biological control over them. So I'm not entirely sure it would fall under the conditions for LOAD even in the manual sense as by the time Frisk is aware of what's going on, their mind would be already be taken over.

So, Frisk touches it once and the Thing gets a new body with some overpowered timehax.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Thing for reasons above.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I'm pretty sure Frisk's SAVE/LOAD deal is independant of his physical form. The Thing can't touch Frisks soul which would likely be the source.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

^ What he said

Frisk getting infected and having every one of his cells devoured and replaced by Thing cells would count as dead for the purpose of SAVE/LOAD

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Unless the soul itself is concious and can load/save on command, Frisk getting possessed would make that a non-issue.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Even if it didn't Frisk could LOAD reguardless.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Frisk getting infected and having every one of his cells devoured and replaced by Thing cells would count as dead for the purpose of SAVE/LOAD

They wouldn't be dead, though. They're just turned into a different form of life, that of The Thing. Hence why transmuation bypasses Regenerationn in many cases. This has the added benefit of also possessing the character, so Frisk wouldn't be able to LOAD on command either.

@Apies

How so?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Unless the soul itself is concious and can load/save on command, Frisk getting possessed would make that a non-issue.

Frisk S/L's in the over world all the time. It's just a save file after all.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Frisk S/L's in the over world all the time. It's just a save file after all.

Yeah, Frisk saves and loads a lot. So what? How can they do that when their mind is overwritten? I don't see any relevant resistances.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It can Save/Load on command. Doesn't need death.

The thing's possession doesn't control their mind. It replaces their mind with its own, in their brain's form. Without their brain, Frisk as a person is dead and gone, regardless of whatever is now copying his brain.

The moment Frisk's brain is gone, his soul is like "what just happened" and proceeds to LOAD

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It can Save/Load on command. Doesn't need death.

Kind of hard to do when you're mind isn't your own.

The thing's possession doesn't control their mind. It replaces their mind with its own, in their brain's form.

Yes, that's correct. That's what would happen to Frisk.

The moment Frisk's brain is gone, his soul is like "what just happened" and proceeds to LOAD

When has something like that happened in Undertale? If SAVE/LOADing requires concious thought Frisk would lack it, and if it operates on death than Frisk isn't dead. Otherwise you're assuming Frisk can now do things they haven't demonstrated.

And Frisk's Brain wouldn't be 'gone'. It would be altered, sure, but still there.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Every game over screen displays Frisk's esssnce can act independant of any physical form.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Every game over screen displays Frisk's esssnce can act independant of any physical form.

As someone who played Undertale, I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you elaborate?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Like

His body dies

His SOUL literally breaks to pieces.

And then he just LOADs back anyway.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Like
His body dies

His SOUL literally breaks to pieces.

And then he just LOADs back anyway.

Frisk's body isn't dying here.

The soul isn't being broken into pieces here.

It seems automatic in that regard, as that only happens on death. The manual version of it requires concious thought Frisk doesn't have anymore.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Frisk's body isn't dying.

The soul isn't being broken into pieces.

It seems automatic in that regard.

Um, Yes yes and no.

You choose to reload after death. It's not automatic.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Frisk is dead though. His body and his brain have all be eaten and replaced by the Thing, piece by piece. There is no more Frisk. That's death. At which point, he LOADs.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Um, Yes yes and no.

As I've said before, biological alteration is not death.

Can you point out where The Thing can attack Frisk's soul or soulhax in general?

It only happens on death though. Frisk isn't being killed here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Frisk is dead though. His body and his brain have all be eaten and replaced by the Thing, piece by piece. There is no more Frisk. That's death. At which point, he LOADs.

The Body isn't killed, though. Nowhere in the process do vital signs stop. That's like saying Frisk being transmutated into a Frog would classify as 'death'. His body is being moved from one state to another. The beggining and end result is an alive body. Death only happens on the cellular level, not on the macroscopic level. Unless you want to tell me Frisk loads every time one of their cells die?

So no LOAD occurs, manual or otherwise.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Can you point out where The Thing can attack Frisk's soul or soulhax in general?

What? No, what I'm saying is it can't and therefore can't win.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What? No, what I'm saying is it can't and therefore can't win.

I don't follow the logic here. The Thing doesn't need to attack Frisk's soul to win. It just needs to assimalate Frisk's body and brain and it wins.

Heck the Thing having soul manipulation would do jack-all here considering Frisk's resistances.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Body isn't killed, though. Nowhere in the process do vital signs stop. That's like saying Frisk being transmutated into a Frog would classify as 'death'. His body is being moved from one state to another. The beggining and end result is an alive body. Death only happens on the cellular level, not on the macroscopic level. Unless you want to tell me Frisk loads every time one of their cells die?

So no LOAD occurs, manual or otherwise.

The body is killed though.

Frisk's body is eaten, cell by cell, and replaced by the Thing's cells. There is no longer any Frisk. There is an alien monster that looks like Frisk, right down to the cells, and has the memories of Frisk, but it is not Frisk.

Frisk is gone. Frisk's vital signs have all stopped because his entire body is gone.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Right, what I'm saying is the Thing would need major soul manip to actually beat Frisk, which it doesn't so it can't. The Thing's possession doesn't tough the soul so Frisk always has an out.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The body is killed though.
Frisk's body is eaten, cell by cell, and replaced by the Thing's cells. There is no longer any Frisk. There is an alien monster that looks like Frisk, right down to the cells, and has the memories of Frisk, but it is not Frisk.

Frisk is gone. Frisk's vital signs have all stopped because his entire body is gone.

No. Cells are killed. The Body isn't.

Vital signs don't stop either. You're assuming things. Frisk's body isn't gone as well, it's just been altered.

You're confusing macroscopic and microscopic. Since the process works on the cellular level, and last time I checked Frisk doesn't LOAD automatically when a single one of their cells die, LOADing wouldn't occur.

Frisk's brain proceeds to get altered on the cellular level, and nothing more can be done at that point.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Right, what I'm saying is the Thing would need major soul manip to actually beat Frisk, which it doesn't so it can't. The Thing's possession doesn't tough the soul so Frisk always has an out.

Last time I checked LOADing either occurs on A) Death, or B) Through concious thought.

Neither happen here, ergo Frisk can't LOAD.

It doesn't need soul manipulation to begin with.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No. Frisk's body is killed, because Frisk's brain and body no longer exists. Every one of his cells has been devoured and mimicked. It doesn't matter if the body still looks whole and has the same amount of cells in the same positions, because those were not Frisk's cells, those are the Thing's cells which have devoured his entire body.

Frisk's vital signs stop because Frisk's body is gone. The Thing's vital signs continue, but it's still the Thing.

I'm not confusing anything. If your entire body is destroyed and replaced by a foreign invader, would you not consider yourself dead?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Frisk's brain proceeds to get altered on the cellular level, and nothing more can be done at that point.

Frisk's brain doesn't control their SOUL.

Altering their brain is an entire non factor to actually using SAVE and LOAD as this is an entirely fictional human in a universe where magic and souls are confirmed to be real and play a major role in who you are.

Frisk can utilize these abilities when they have literally been killed. This ability is not connected to the physical Frisk.

The Thing changing Frisk's body in any way, shape, or form isn't going to cut it, here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No. Frisk's body is killed, because Frisk's brain and body no longer exists. Every one of his cells has been devoured and mimicked. It doesn't matter if the body still looks whole and has the same amount of cells in the same positions, because those were not Frisk's cells, those are the Thing's cells which have devoured his entire body.
Frisk's vital signs stop because Frisk's body is gone. The Thing's vital signs continue, but it's still the Thing.

I'm not confusing anything. If your entire body is destroyed and replaced by a foreign invader, would you not consider yourself dead?

All of your logic assumes this is done all at once, at which point I might agree with you.

However, this is done over time, cell by cell.

Biological death doesn't occur as a result. Frisk is alive thorughout the entire process until there is a Thing-Frisk left.

The last part is actually a pretty famous paradox that I cannot give you an answer for. It's both a theological and philosophical disucssion. Considering I never see anything of the sort happening in Undertale, it would be odd to assume that it considers death as something other than biological, regular death.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Oh no! I've started a Ship of Theseus debate.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Frisk's brain doesn't control their SOUL.
Altering their brain is an entire non factor to actually using SAVE and LOAD as this is an entirely fictional human in a universe where magic and souls are confirmed to be real and play a major role in who you are.

Frisk can utilize these abilities when they have literally been killed. This ability is not connected to the physical Frisk.

Yes, Frisk can control these abilities when they have been killed. That doesn't happen here. The only other way that happens is through concious thought while Frisk is alive, which would be a non-issue.

Could you point to a time for me, when Firsk's mind was altered, but the SOUL still reloaded? Otherwise you're assuming Frisk can do things they haven't demonstrated.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I do so love it when a debate which fictional character can beat the other one up best turns into philosophy over my grandfather's axe.

The moment there is nothing but Thing-Frisk left, is the moment Frisk is completely dead, and he becomes able to LOAD.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, Frisk can control these abilities when they have been killed. That doesn't happen here. The only other way that happens is through concious thought while Frisk is alive, which would be a non-issue.

Frisk can control these abilities when they have been killed because the SOUL is not strictly linked to Frisk's physical self and thus can continue to function after death.

This is not the same as "Frisk needs to die in order to SAVE or LOAD". SAVE and LOAD are explicitly shown to be usable when a being is still alive by Flowey.

"Could you point to a time for me, when Firsk's mind was altered, but the SOUL still reloaded? Otherwise you're assuming Frisk can do things they haven't demonstrated."

My dude, you are arguing for mind manipulation done directly by altering Frisk's brain.

Frisk can reload when their brain isn't functioning because they are dead. This isn't like someone using a magic power to stop them from doing something.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The moment there is nothing but Thing-Frisk left, is the moment Frisk is completely dead, and he becomes able to LOAD.

That entirely depends on what youre definition of what 'death' is. That last cell wouldn't represent Frisk, the entire collection of cells in the body represents Frisk, or rather the processes that body does. Nothing happens to that process, so wouldn't you say Frisk isn't dying, but just being altered into something else?

Unless you can prove to me that Frisk can maintain identity and conciousness on a cellular level.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't need to prove Frisk can maintain identity and consciousness on a cellular level when I can prove that he can maintain identity and consciousness on a spiritual level, and even when that spirit is destroyed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Frisk can control these abilities when they have been killed because the SOUL is not strictly linked to Frisk's physical self and thus can continue to function after death.
This is not the same as "Frisk needs to die in order to SAVE or LOAD". SAVE and LOAD are explicitly shown to be usable when a being is still alive by Flowey.

Frisk is still alive, though. Their mind is just being altered. If Frisk was mindhaxxed, would the SOUL still be able to reload? If so, when did that happen in Undertale?

I only see two instances of Saving and Loading happening here. One done when alive activated via thought, and one done on death activated via the soul. Neither are applicable here as Frisk's mind turns into that of the Thing.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't need to prove Frisk can maintain identity and consciousness on a cellular level when I can prove that he can maintain identity and consciousness on a spiritual level, and even when that spirit is destroyed.

By all means, prove that to me then. If Frisk's SOUL can Save and Load independent of Frisk's mind while Frisk is alive, I'm all ears.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I'm actually legitimatly curious to see where everyone falls on the ship thing, though it might actually be obvious based on the arguments.