Third Grade Super Saiyan Multiplier

[Sir_Marvulous]

That was no longer true at a certain point

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Anyways, can we not do this here? I'm gonna have an aneurism if this goes off the rails

 

[Livinmeme]

And that is hilariously contradicted by the original manga itself

Why would Gohan be so desperate to unleash his supposed 'hidden power' if he could defeat Cell right then and there?

Because gohan is a coward that needed a massive powerup to kill cell???

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Please, I ask that you all refrain from pressing the matter further for about an hour, so that I can press the matter myself and take all the credit.

 

[omegabronic]

Lord, why have you placed Omega in my thread???

every light needs darkness, i am necessary, no matter how much you guys try to negate it

but i agreed here tho

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Ah yes. The DvD. An immaculate source of reliable info

Prove it's contradicted.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Prove it's contradicted.

The DvD is for the ******* Toei anime

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Once again, can we NOT do this here?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Prove it's contradicted.

Pretty sure the Dragon Boxes also declared Revived Cell stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, which, on top of being exclusive to the TV anime, is not correct.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Pretty sure the Dragon Boxes also declared Revived Cell stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, which, on top of being exclusive to the TV anime, is not correct.

That would technically be a genetic fallacy, if you're saying that's why it can't be used.

The DvD is for the ******* Toei anime

Then it should be different for toeiverse

 

[AwkguyDB]

We do a scaling thread for Toei later, at the very least for the manga

50% SSJ2 Gohan > Super Grade 3 Cell > Perfect Cell >= MSSJ Gohan as far as the Manga is concerned

20x SSJ should be good enough for SSJ2

Also Gohan says Goku is counting on him to snap and go Beserk. Which would mean that the power Gohan has without rage isn’t enough to beat Cell.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Let’s just get this multiplier accepted before Null drops an essay

 

[omegabronic]

We do a scaling thread for Toei later, at the very least for the manga

50% SSJ2 Gohan > Super Grade 3 Cell > Perfect Cell >= MSSJ Gohan as far as the Manga is concerned

20x SSJ should be good enough for SSJ2

Also Gohan says Goku is counting on him to snap and go Beserk. Which would mean that the power Gohan has without rage isn’t enough to beat Cell.

it is not 20x for ssj2, but for ssj2 gohan, he was also amped with rage power iirc, so he is not much of a good base for every ssj2

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Null already pointed out in a previous thread that Gohan's transformation into a Super Saiyan 2 was the pinnacle of his history of rage outbursts. There was no additional rage boost after that

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Let’s just get this multiplier accepted before Null drops an essay

Too late. He's about to

 

[Nullflowerblush]

First and foremost, I apologize if this post comes across as angry or vitriolic. It probably is, because I'm currently battling an infection, and my sinuses are killing me, but I don't mean anything by it.

Anywho...

Spoiler: "Hurr, durr, rage boost"

Gohan was clearly enraged lol, that is evident because of the nature of his attitude when fighting, so are you saying rage boost don't make you stronger while in the transformation? But only acts as a trigger for it?

For the umpteenth time, yes. Anger is the source of Super Saiyan 2's power for Gohan, but nothing ever suggests that Gohan was being propped up the entire time by a rage boost. Throughout the battle, Gohan proved himself to be level-headed, plagued only by an underlying arrogance and sadistic, quiet wrath. Dialogue from Goku and Gohan in the Buu Saga later confirms that anger is the catalyst and driving force behind Super Saiyan 2, but Gohan never experienced an "How dare you touch my Bulma?!" power-up. Is this out of the way?

Spoiler: Super Saiyan 2 Multiplier

No, I'm just using the logic that less than 50% of Super Saiyan 2 is superior to Grade 3

From the Multipliers page:

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

Spoiler: "SSJ Gohan was stronger than Cell"???

Official guide states Gohan was stronger and holding back immensely.

"Gohan is facing Cell's attacks like they're nothing. His showcase of power surprises everyone"

"During the fight, Gohan realizes his strength surpassed Cell's, so he tried to convince Cell to stop fighting, but..."

THE SCENE FROM THE MANGA THAT THIS IS DERIVED FROM EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THE STRENGTH GOHAN HAS, SURPASSING CELL'S, IS THE STRENGTH HE DRAWS FROM HIS HIDDEN POTENTIAL. Y'KNOW, WHEN HE GETS ANGRY. Y'KNOW, SUPER SAIYAN 2.

Spoiler: "SPC = SSJ2"

Yeah

I actually made a discussion topic over on the Dragon Ball Wiki about this, but to sum it up, I'm just going to send the entire thing.

The Wiki considers Cell one of the many users of Super Saiyan 2, as Super Perfect Cell, due to the Viz translation of its explaining of its revival being taken at face value. First and foremost...

From Herm's translation:

"There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…"

From the original Japanese text:

"さらにうれしいことにそのカラダは18号抜きでも完全体として再生していた…………ただの完全体ではない孫悟飯のようにはるかにパワーアップしていたのだ…これはおそらく生死の狭間から救われたとき大きく力を上げるというサイヤ人の細胞がそうさせたのだろう…"

A rough translation:

"What's even more exciting is that this body had regenerated into its perfect even without No. 18... Not just a perfect body, but a much more powerful one, like Son Gohan's... This is probably due to the Saiyan cells, greatly increasing in strength when restored from the brink of death..."

The key takeaway from all three of these texts is "I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan", "Not just a perfect body, but a much more powerful one, like Son Gohan's", and パワーアップ.

The kanji パワーアップ roughly translates into "making more powerful", as in, when combined with the other translations, Cell was, evidently, only comparing its explosive growth in strength to the spontaneous power-up Gohan received when he became a Super Saiyan 2.

Nothing in the original text suggests that Cell and Gohan both received virtually identical power-ups, and nothing suggests that Cell achieved Super Saiyan 2. Not only would this be illogical, as Cell's power-up was derived from Saiyan Power, being revived from the brink of death which only results in an exponential boost in combat ability, but this would also break the scaling chain, as Cell in its normal state was far too powerful for Gohan to make even a dent in its power.

Moreover, virtually every databook in existence only ever mentions that Cell had revived into its perfect form, made more powerful due to the reactionary effects of its Saiyan cells, rather than being the result of unlocking a newfound transformation.

It's rather short, sorry.

 

[omegabronic]

First and foremost, I apologize if this post comes across as angry or vitriolic. It probably is, because I'm currently battling an infection, and my sinuses are killing me, but I don't mean anything by it.

Anywho...

Spoiler: "Hurr, durr, rage boost"

For the umpteenth time, yes. Anger is the source of Super Saiyan 2's power for Gohan, but nothing ever suggests that Gohan was being propped up the entire time by a rage boost. Throughout the battle, Gohan proved himself to be level-headed, plagued only by an underlying arrogance and sadistic, quiet wrath. Dialogue from Goku and Gohan in the Buu Saga later confirms that anger is the catalyst and driving force behind Super Saiyan 2, but Gohan never experienced an "How dare you touch my Bulma?!" power-up. Is this out of the way?

Spoiler: Super Saiyan 2 Multiplier

From the Multipliers page:

Spoiler: "SSJ Gohan was stronger than Cell"???

THE SCENE FROM THE MANGA THAT THIS IS DERIVED FROM EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THE STRENGTH GOHAN HAS, SURPASSING CELL'S, IS THE STRENGTH HE DRAWS FROM HIS HIDDEN POTENTIAL. Y'KNOW, WHEN HE GETS ANGRY. Y'KNOW, SUPER SAIYAN 2.

Spoiler: "SPC = SSJ2"

I actually made a discussion topic over on the Dragon Ball Wiki about this, but to sum it up, I'm just going to send the entire thing.

It's rather short, sorry.

makes sense

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

First and foremost, I apologize if this post comes across as angry or vitriolic. It probably is, because I'm currently battling an infection, and my sinuses are killing me, but I don't mean anything by it.

Anywho...

Spoiler: "Hurr, durr, rage boost"

For the umpteenth time, yes. Anger is the source of Super Saiyan 2's power for Gohan, but nothing ever suggests that Gohan was being propped up the entire time by a rage boost. Throughout the battle, Gohan proved himself to be level-headed, plagued only by an underlying arrogance and sadistic, quiet wrath. Dialogue from Goku and Gohan in the Buu Saga later confirms that anger is the catalyst and driving force behind Super Saiyan 2, but Gohan never experienced an "How dare you touch my Bulma?!" power-up. Is this out of the way?

Spoiler: Super Saiyan 2 Multiplier

From the Multipliers page:

Spoiler: "SSJ Gohan was stronger than Cell"???

THE SCENE FROM THE MANGA THAT THIS IS DERIVED FROM EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THE STRENGTH GOHAN HAS, SURPASSING CELL'S, IS THE STRENGTH HE DRAWS FROM HIS HIDDEN POTENTIAL. Y'KNOW, WHEN HE GETS ANGRY. Y'KNOW, SUPER SAIYAN 2.

Spoiler: "SPC = SSJ2"

I actually made a discussion topic over on the Dragon Ball Wiki about this, but to sum it up, I'm just going to send the entire thing.

It's rather short, sorry.

The fact I was the only one yelled at.

 

[AwkguyDB]

The fact I was the only one yelled at.

First time?

 

[AwkguyDB]

But Null could we not come to the conclusion that Gohan is 2x Grade 3 if his half power is stronger?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Spoiler: Super Saiyan 2 Multiplier

From the Multipliers page:

But it was stated by a character themself...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But Null could we not come to the conclusion that Gohan is 2x Grade 3 if his half power is stronger?

The logic was that Super Saiyan 2 itself was 2x Grade 3, which is against the Multipliers rules.

 

[Ped2018]

The fact I was the only one yelled at.

Woman moment

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I would prefer having the original Japanese transcript but if the Spanish and French translations came to the same conclusion then it seems reasonable to agree. So right now I'm going to say:

• Agree with Grade 3 being 10x Grade 2 (At least 500x base)
• Agree with Super Saiyan 2 scaling above Grade 3 (SS2 being 2x Grade 3 or 20x Grade 2 is okay for now)
• Disagree with Grade 4 scaling above Grade 3 (I view it as just drainless Grade 1 and Goku's base power being dramatically higher)

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I heard some stuff about how Toei Grade 4 might scale above Grade 3, don't know the reason why tho

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I agree with everything. Altho it'd be nice to settle once and for all if grade 4 is >/< grade 3, I wanna know more than just hearing people's opinions on it. Get some actual scans.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I agree with everything. Altho it'd be nice to settle once and for all if grade 4 is >/< grade 3, I wanna know more than just hearing people's opinions on it. Get some actual scans.

Based on toeiverse statements, it stands to reason 100%.

 

[omegabronic]

In toeiverse it seems to be at least, well another thing that makes toei stronger then main cannon, who would have thought?

 

[AguilaR202]

Grade 4 is just 50x except with better stamina, Goku being stronger than previous grades can be attributed entirely to higher base power.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Grade 4 is just 50x except with better stamina, Goku being stronger than previous grades can be attributed entirely to higher base power.

not in the toeiverse, as guidebooks consistently state the opposite there

 

[AguilaR202]

not in the toeiverse, as guidebooks consistently state the opposite there

Toei verse can get away with it if it wants, but not main continuity because of one too many instances of newly awakened SS1 being on par with MSS1 Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Sure, let's put this to bed, too.

Goku was vehemently opposed to the idea of merely increasing one's Ki to draw out Super Saiyan's power, and his secret to surpassing the "Super Saiyan wall" was to explicitly train the body to handle the original form without strain, deeming Grades 2 and 3 unnecessary power-ups; later dialogue between Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tien confirms that Goku and Gohan have adjusted to the normal Super Saiyan form, foregoing any additional transformations. The Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" section reiterates this (for clarification, Grades 2 and 3 are described as "beyond the limits of Super Saiyan"), the Super Exciting Guide's "Rewards of Training" chapter reiterates this, and the El Manga Legendario reiterates this.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Toei apparently goes with it being equal to Third Grade, but with none of the downsides

Obtain all the power of Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, obtaining more strength, agility, speed and reflexes.

 

[StekFence]

I agree. this is inspiring. amazing. Spectacular. Wonderful. I’m Crying.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Hold on so for toei it’s 10x speed and power for Grade 4?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Toei apparently goes with it being equal to Third Grade, but with none of the downsides

I don't think La Revista had any hand from Toei or Shuiesha outside of licensing, judging off its copyright page.

 

[Eseseso]

Toei apparently goes with it being equal to Third Grade, but with none of the downsides

The "more strength" part seems to imply higher AP, ngl

 

[AwkguyDB]

If La Revista and the Anime Comic Guide that describes the different forms in order of superiority ( A Guide used heavily to support Cell’s Solar System statement/ The one that calls SSJ2 Grade 5) are valid sources for Toei, then I can see a 10x SSJ for Grade 4. If that were the case then SSJ2 would be a 10x Grade 4’s 10x due to scaling to Cell’s Grade 3.

Both guides state Grade 4 is as strong or stronger than Grade 3 but are anime specific.

MSSJ Gohan (10x SSJ1) < Perfect Cell < Cell’s Grade 3 (10x PC) < SP Cell < 50% SSJ2 Gohan < SSJ2 Gohan

Giving SSJ2 a 100x Multiplier on SSJ or 5000x Base form.

pretty insane

 

[AguilaR202]

I’ll stick with Null flowers main point of demonstrating 10x amp for grade three and SS2 superiority to it.

All further extrapolation seems like shit that’s better addressed in different threads.
MSS1 vs SS1 multiplier debacle has very little to do with the OP anyways.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Agreed at this point let’s just get Staff approval I believe we are good on an at least 10x multiplier though 50% Gohan logically should make this 20x