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Thing about plot manip and NEP type 2

Ned_the_outer_god

Ned_the_outer_god

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So, insert character doesn't have any feats of effecting NEP type 2 but has plot manip, can the plot manip (let's say, it's 5D or 6D) effect NEP type 2?
 
Idk, if the plot is part of the verse, it should be included in existence, so such level of NEP should cover it, but might need context.
 
Imo, considering the way NEP Type 2.

It should not affect them. They should exist outside the framework of the plot

Or

Not exist at all in the plot?
 
Characters that do not exist in or part of "reality", are still part of a "plot" in the strictest sense. I do not think NEP Type 2 should provide resistance to plot manipulation on its own.
 
Ideally I feel this should be more broken down into a case by case basis for verses as a whole.
 
Technically; even NEP type 2 and type 5 acausality would still be tied to the plot unless stated otherwise.

Being non-existent, conceptually or otherwise, really has nothing to do with the plot.
 
Last edited:
Planck69 said:
Honestly, like all other powers, it needs feats that imply it can. We really shouldn't treat powers in a blanket sense to do stuff they've never showcased.
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I agree with in addition to what I said before

TheUnshakableOne said:
Imo, considering the way NEP Type 2 is considered on the wiki.

It should not affect them. They should exist outside the framework of the plot

Or

Not exist at all in the plot
Click to expand...
 
As I said; being nonexistent has nothing to do with the plot, unless specifically stated or at the very least suggested in the verse (as thelastmlg said).

It should be proven that they "work outside of the framework of the plot". Because under normal circumstances, if you're still in the story, then you're still part of the plot; and this is especially true for non-meta verses.
 
YungManzi said:
As I said; being nonexistent has nothing to do with the plot, unless specifically stated or at the very least suggested in the verse (as thelastmlg said).

It should be proven that they "work outside of the framework of the plot". Because under normal circumstances, if you're still in the story, then you're still part of the plot; and this is especially true for non-meta verses.
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Why it should have nothing to do with the plot? They don't have their concept of existence anywhere so in the plot too, you can't manipulate the plot of by ex M Beam if M Beam doesn't conceptualy exist in any plan of existances as don't having concept of being/self is the same for reality or plot (and using the real plot as argument don't help as no character can manipulate it).
 
Alphaapexnep00 said:
You literally have no concept. I fail to see why the plot is considered superior.
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It depends on the potency, for example one verse may have plot as the "Fate" of the verse where as I've seen some versions of plot completely transcend concepts themselves. The NEP2 character also depends on if plot also exists within their verse or not as well. As just being Non existent from all concepts doesn't automatically mean you are removed from the plot as the definition of plot varies wildly between verses.
 
Zackra1799 said:
It depends on the potency, for example one verse may have plot as the "Fate" of the verse where as I've seen some versions of plot completely transcend concepts themselves. The NEP2 character also depends on if plot also exists within their verse or not as well. As just being Non existent from all concepts doesn't automatically mean you are removed from the plot as the definition of plot varies wildly between verses.
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We have concept who transcend concept too but being NEP-2 in the lower but it doesn't allow the higher to affect the NEP-2
 
it should not affecting a character with nep2 would be like a) affecting a hole in the book itself b) affecting a character that isnt in the book or c) affecting a character that has been erased from the narrative
 
YungManzi said:
As I said; being nonexistent has nothing to do with the plot, unless specifically stated or at the very least suggested in the verse (as thelastmlg said).

It should be proven that they "work outside of the framework of the plot". Because under normal circumstances, if you're still in the story, then you're still part of the plot; and this is especially true for non-meta verses.
Click to expand...
agree, it should be case by case

for who don't know why The place in the narrative is more fundamental than concept (depending on case by case) it's because who lacks of concept still have place in the narrative, we can see him intracting and do stuff.
 
manu_zarri said:
agree, it should be case by case

for who don't know why The place in the narrative is more fundamental than concept (depending on case by case) it's because who lacks of concept still have place in the narrative, we can see him intracting and do stuff.
Click to expand...
Except no character can affect real narrative, you don't see character erasing people and that people disappear from all chapter.
 
manu_zarri said:
some characthers in game can exist with file deleted. also plot isn't real life so
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File deleted isn't considered as really plot manip but data and 4th wall, and even with that a file have a backup so not really fully erased, and why you talk about real life? I talk about real narrative, so the manga/game itself, if a character deleted from plot an another character it will not make this character disappear from all manga/game etc
 
Regidian said:
File deleted isn't considered as really plot manip but data and 4th wall, and even with that a file have a backup so not really fully erased, and why you talk about real life? I talk about real narrative, so the manga/game itself, if a character deleted from plot an another character it will not make this character disappear from all manga/game etc
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someone above said real life, forgot to ping him sorry.

btw i think file are something with plot, i meant, his file are errsed there wouldn't be his presence in game. he can't regenerate from the plot or something, ig. i really don't see how it's just data + 4th wall.
 
I shouldn't have to explain why plot manipulation not actually affecting the real world doesn't matter.

From the perspective of fictional characters, it doesn't matter if the plot manipulation is affecting the IRL plot, it affecting a stand-in for the "IRL plot/narrative" is enough in itself to be treated as the real deal and given the attributes such power would entail.

We treat a power as real as long as it stays true to the story; regardless of any real world implications that would be needed for the power to hold true, otherwise, the argument could be made that the nonexistent isn't really a conceptual nonexistent because we as readers/viewers are still aware of them. Or we shouldn't be able to see them move if they're lightning speed, and so on, and so on.
 
YungManzi said:
I shouldn't have to explain why plot manipulation not actually affecting the real world doesn't matter.

From the perspective of fictional characters, it doesn't matter if the plot manipulation is affecting the IRL plot, it affecting a stand-in for the "IRL plot/narrative" is enough in itself to be treated as the real deal and given the attributes such power would entail.

We treat a power as real as long as it stays true to the story; regardless of any real world implications that would be needed for the power to hold true, otherwise, the argument could be made that the nonexistent isn't really a conceptual nonexistent because we as readers/viewers are still aware of them. Or we shouldn't be able to see them move if they're lightning speed, and so on, and so on.
Click to expand...
It was not really the main argument, the main argument is that in most of case the plot is just the reality/the fate etc and not a proper plot and so nothing valuable even more when i tell a NEP2 will just not be existant from any plan, so it's to you to prove that in your verse the plot can affect NEP2
 
YungManzi said:
What does this mean though? If it's plot manipulation then it's plot manipulation. We're specifically talking about that and not fate/reality.
Click to expand...
In most of the case the plot manip just directly work like fate manip/subject reality/reality warper/ higher-lower perspective manip and even in many of them they are just that, so nothing above concept most of the time, if you can show that in your verse their plot allow see them to interact with thing like NEP-2 or that their plot>all concept type
 
Regidian said:
In most of the case the plot manip just directly work like fate manip/subject reality/reality warper/ higher-lower perspective manip and even in many of them they are just that, so nothing above concept most of the time, if you can show that in your verse their plot allow see them to interact with thing like NEP-2 or that their plot>all concept type
Click to expand...
Nobody is saying that all plot manipulators are capable of Interacting with NEP2 beings, However the ones who have Plot that is completely separate from concepts, fate, reality, Etc. should be able to unless the character with NEP2 has feats of being nonexistent from Plot on this level. It's like how we treat Souls in fiction. The verse is treated to have Souls even if said verse never brings up Souls ever. The same would apply here.
 
The problem radicates in the fact that NEP Type 2 means that you weren't, you aren't and you won't ever be. Literally. The plot would also means that you're the one who can change the script of the story to say "But now you're and you'll gonna be defeated", but don't exagerate. With Type 1 I could give say that you're right, but Type 2, as the description in the homonimous page says, isn't nor one or zero.

If the Plot Manipulation doesn't grant you Void Manipulation, Resistance Negation or you're transdual, then don't give simple answers to complex questions. If people start to replace Omnipotence with Plot Manipulation, then please, don't argue who is more "omnipotent" than others, because the only way this ends is in a Suggs-way.

As a lot of people said in this thread... case by case.
 
I'm not sure plot manipulation user can affect NEP 2. Because of them being higher existence than NEP 2. Since, NEP 2 itself isn't being exist and non exist.

So, it's can Conceptual Manipulation like Type 1 and 2 affect NEP2?
 
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