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The Unwritten downgrade

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Xearsay

Xearsay

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The hierarchy of stories outerversal rating
The hierarchy of stories outerversal rating comes from mages being able to add dimensions to physical space within a single story amongst the infinite stories.

The problem is that there’s no evidence of these dimensions the mages can create being qualitatively superior to one another. The evidence that mages can add any amount of dimensions to physical space is missing as well. From my understanding this seems to be the main argument for the HoS being an outerversal hierarchy, so unless there is some stuff I haven’t seen or another justification that can be made for a single story within the hierarchy being outerversal then the HoS should be downgraded to high 1-B.

The cetacean hierarchy
Technically, if the HoS is downgraded to high 1-B that would lower the hierarchy of whales to low 1-A or possibly 1-A. However, after looking through the original justifications and evidence posted by Sandman, I don’t believe the hierarchy of whales has a justification for being a tier above the HoS.

This is the justification for the hierarchy of whales being superior to the hierarchy of stories.
Problem 1: Yes there’s an infinite regression of whales but it’s never mentioned that these lesser whales are superior to the HoS. The first scan states “It’s possible to imagine a sort of infinite cetacean regression. So long as the final whale was big enough to contain whole worlds” implying that only the final whale from which all the other whales regressed is big enough to contain the hierarchy of stories.

Problem 2: Another part of the justification for the whales being transcendent is through the oceans. The oceans are the underlying surface of the HoS but only being the surface of the HoS doesn’t mean they surpass the HoS, and therefore wouldn’t be enough to upgrade the oceans to low 1-A or 1-A.

Problem 3: The last part about the fry of the Leviathans species being able to damage the entire HoS is never stated in any of the scans linked so I’m kind of confused where this comes from. The part about the fry being unaffected by the HoS destruction is also not what’s stated in the scan either. The scan states “The darkness will swallow up the rest of the land but this tower will endure. Those who follow the true path will be spared.”

Tier of the Leviathan
From my understanding of how the Leviathan was portrayed, the Leviathan is supposed to be the collective unconscious of humanity. Humans play the role as “God” and tell stories creating lesser realities that follow the same trend, thus forming the HoS. The Leviathans relationship to this is that all stories humanity can tell become dreams of the Leviathan, and whatever Leviathan dreams becomes actualized.(Unwritten #32.5) I think this would warrant the Leviathan being superior to the HoS and any additionally levels, as any story humanity can conceive will be a part of the Leviathans dream and will only exist when the Leviathan dreams about it. Suggesting it’s simply a layer of qualitative superiority added on top of the HoS wouldn’t make sense as any story added would just fall within the Leviathans dreams.

Assuming the HoS is accepted as high 1-B rather than a 1-A hierarchy, and the cetacean hierarchy is scrapped from the tiering of the cosmology, the Leviathan should be low 1-A.
 
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sandman31 reasoning for HoS is based on old standart so i got another scan.
Xearsay said:
The hierarchy of stories outerversal rating
The hierarchy of stories outerversal rating comes from mages being able to add dimensions to physical space within a single story amongst the infinite stories.

The problem is that there’s no evidence of these dimensions the mages can create being qualitatively superior to one another. The evidence that mages can add any amount of dimensions to physical space is missing as well. From my understanding this seems to be the main argument for the HoS being an outerversal hierarchy, so unless there is some stuff I haven’t seen or another justification that can be made for a single story within the hierarchy being outerversal then the HoS should be downgraded to high 1-B.
Click to expand...
at the end of The Unwritten. to save the world Wilson Taylor use the Maanim to turn his son Tom to a complete fictional character, with this he made the event of The Unwritten doesnt exist. it was revealed The Unwritten become something noneless as a fiction that wilson write. This proof that Writer in the unwritten can do more than that, because you know Unwritten cosmology.


Xearsay said:
The last part about the fry of the Leviathans species being able to damage the entire HoS is never stated in any of the scans linked so I’m kind of confused where this comes from.
Click to expand...
read the start of The unwritten apocalypse #2 the fry of leviathan species basically come to the "first story (Tom world)" and mixed all stories together (Wake and stretch part)
Xearsay said:
Problem 1: Yes there’s an infinite regression of whales but it’s never mentioned that these lesser whales are superior to the HoS. The first scan states “It’s possible to imagine a sort of infinite cetacean regression. So long as the final whale was big enough to contain whole worlds” implying that only the final whale from which all the other whales regressed is big enough to contain the hierarchy of stories.

Problem 2: Another part of the justification for the whales being transcendent is through the oceans. The oceans are the underlying surface of the HoS but only being the surface of the HoS doesn’t mean they surpass the HoS, and therefore wouldn’t be enough to upgrade the oceans to low 1-A or 1-A.
Click to expand...
image.png

Not from the Ocean tho, it just proven that they exist outside of it, The Qualitative superiority of The Whales come from the fact they also view the whole hierarchy of stories as a dream, the Qualititative superior behind The Whales is basically the same as the Leviathan, there no difference between "The Mother of Leviathan" and other "Whales" they are the same species it just "Mother of Leviathan" came first, this idea is clear at "The Unwritten Apocalypse" issue 4 page 10, on how Madame Rausch create a whole another Hierarchy of Stories outside of "Mother of Leviathan" Domain. Honestly aint explaining all that because it will be long essay, you can see this interview with Mike Carey.

https://www.cbr.com/trade-waiting-carey-gross-open-the-wound-on-the-unwritten/
It's chilling, but I am left believing Leviathan is not alone and that there is another Leviathan out there waiting to take his place. When we last spoke we talked about what would happen if you wiped something like the Cabal from an ecosystem, it would simply create a niche to be filled by something else. Here we are and I think that time is coming again.

Gross: I think it's more that there are potential new ones, like in the latest issue with Madame Rausch -- if that's the one that you're referring to -- she gets the little one at the beginning. It's like there is a potential here for a new one to fill its place but it would be a long process

Carey: Yes, there is definitely an ecosystem of creatures like Leviathan, any one of which could theoretically step into that role. We'll be looking at more of what the implications of that are as we go forward.

Gross: The one that's been wounded was the mother of all Leviathans, basically [Laughs] or the current mother of all Leviathans.
 
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Antvasima said:
This seems to make sense to me as well, but I am not the best person to ask.

@Agnaa

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I currently have 55 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.
 
Samael_010 said:
at the end of The Unwritten. to save the world Wilson Taylor use the Maanim to turn his son Tom to a complete fictional character, with this he made the event of The Unwritten doesnt exist. it was revealed The Unwritten become something noneless as a fiction that wilson write. This proof that Writer in the unwritten can do more than that, because you know Unwritten cosmology.
Click to expand...
I see what you’re saying. Honestly I’m fine with this, I just didn’t like the original justification Sandman proposed for the HoS. So if this one is deemed good enough by others I’m onboard with keeping HoS of stories as an outerversal hierarchy. Although you’re probably gonna need to write a more clear justification that can be added to the Leviathans profile explaining why the HoS is outerversal.

Samael_010 said:
The Qualitative superiority of The Whales come from the fact they also view the whole hierarchy of stories as a dream, the Qualititative superior behind The Whales is basically the same as the Leviathan, there no difference between "The Mother of Leviathan" and other "Whales" they are the same species it just "Mother of Leviathan" came first, this idea is clear at "The Unwritten Apocalypse" issue 4 page 10, on how Madame Rausch create a whole another Hierarchy of Stories outside of "Mother of Leviathan" Domain. Honestly aint explaining all that because it will be long essay, you can see this interview with Mike Carey.
Click to expand...
I want to make this clear, I can’t find a single instance of the other whales having a qualitative superiority to the hierarchy of stories. I can only find the mother leviathan being implied to have such a thing.

“It’s possible to imagine a sort of infinite cetacean regression. So long as the final whale was big enough to contain whole worlds” implying that only the final whale from which all the other whales regressed is big enough to contain the hierarchy of stories.

And while yes another whale can become or replace the mother leviathan, Peter Gross and Mike Carey would state that this is a process that can potentially or theoretically happen overtime. Meaning the other whales currently aren’t on the same scale as the mother leviathan but overtime one of them may be able to rise to that position.

So I really don’t think cetacean hierarchy is a thing. Even if the HoS remains as an outerversal hierarchy, the Leviathan should probably still be High 1-A, but not infinite levels into High 1-A as the cetacean hierarchy would be removed from the scaling. Also the page probably needs to be removed from the wiki.
 
I'm not going to answer about the Hierarchy of the story because it's already been answered, and I don't agree with the notion that this little whale isn't superior to HoS and also that infinite levels Leviathan's don't qualify.

The justification for the superiority of smaller whales lies in the ocean itself, where the ocean is where the Leviathan species resides where all the stories worlds are just like bubbles stirred in the water. "But Anselm spoke of "a consciousness behind the world and the word, greater than both, And Hegel of "the mind so vast it has no boundary, and therefore bleeds perforce into our own, The Thing I'd seen--it was too real. Too solid. It made the world seem like a dream. Like a bubble stirred in the water. All of us. Just bubbles"

the justification for infinite level's Leviathan's species lies in the assertion that the oceans are stacked like towers and have their own ecosystem that each ocean underlies all of the fictional worlds (Hierarchy of stories).

1 (The Unwritten #42)

"You know how they used to show acid trips, in '60s movies? Well, I feel through places that looked like that."

There were oceans. But they were stacked up like towers.

"And there were these creatures that seemed tiny from close up but got bigger the further away thay were."

2 (The Unwritten #45)

The stacked oceans also have their own ecosystem and every ocean underlies all of the fictional worlds

"regression" has been compared to something akin to evolution. There's is clearly a hierarchy among Leviathan's species

So my conclusion, Leviathan's regression/species will stay at High 1-A infinite level's
 
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Xearsay said:
I see what you’re saying. Honestly I’m fine with this, I just didn’t like the original justification Sandman proposed for the HoS. So if this one is deemed good enough by others I’m onboard with keeping HoS of stories as an outerversal hierarchy. Although you’re probably gonna need to write a more clear justification that can be added to the Leviathans profile explaining why the HoS is outerversal.
Click to expand...
Not a tier 1 expert but isnt that an upgrade?
Xearsay said:
I want to make this clear, I can’t find a single instance of the other whales having a qualitative superiority to the hierarchy of stories. I can only find the mother leviathan being implied to have such a thing.

“It’s possible to imagine a sort of infinite cetacean regression. So long as the final whale was big enough to contain whole worlds” implying that only the final whale from which all the other whales regressed is big enough to contain the hierarchy of stories.

And while yes another whale can become or replace the mother leviathan, Peter Gross and Mike Carey would state that this is a process that can potentially or theoretically happen overtime. Meaning the other whales currently aren’t on the same scale as the mother leviathan but overtime one of them may be able to rise to that position.

So I really don’t think cetacean hierarchy is a thing. Even if the HoS remains as an outerversal hierarchy, the Leviathan should probably still be High 1-A, but not infinite levels into High 1-A as the cetacean hierarchy would be removed from the scaling. Also the page probably needs to be removed from the wiki.
Click to expand...
"potentially or theoretically happen overtime" is reffering to how the mother of leviathan is bleeding to death for the whole series and still had authority over the stories. The context behind the question of the interviewer is the one that matter, Rausch with Fry of Leviathan power literary able to create a whole another hierarchy of Stories outside of "Mother of Leviathan" domain, and that my point before, there is no difference between "the mother" and rest of the whales, when the current "dreamer" reign is over the dreamer below would be the one in charge.



"It’s possible to imagine a sort of infinite cetacean regression. So long as the final whale was big enough to contain whole worlds”

This statement though, im not sure. this thing said when Tom think there such thing as "Real world" so i can't say much. But The Whales species exist outside of HoS is already clear because of "The Ocean". and that where my explanation above will come

also about this.
Xearsay said:
The part about the fry being unaffected by the HoS destruction is also not what’s stated in the scan either. The scan states “The darkness will swallow up the rest of the land but this tower will endure. Those who follow the true path will be spared.”
Click to expand...
context: This happen during The Unwritten Apocalypse when the Mother of Leviathan is on verge of dying and so take the hierarchy of stories with him. That women Rhea Hawkin got the Fry of Leviathan power and create a cult with a tower as her base.
image.png
 
 
PrinceStories said:
The justification for the superiority of smaller whales lies in the ocean itself, where the ocean is where the Leviathan species resides where all the stories worlds are just like bubbles stirred in the water. "But Anselm spoke of "a consciousness behind the world and the word, greater than both, And Hegel of "the mind so vast it has no boundary, and therefore bleeds perforce into our own, The Thing I'd seen--it was too real. Too solid. It made the world seem like a dream. Like a bubble stirred in the water. All of us. Just bubbles"

the justification for infinite level's Leviathan's species lies in the assertion that the oceans are stacked like towers and have their own ecosystem that each ocean underlies all of the fictional worlds (Hierarchy of stories).
Click to expand...
Yes the oceans underlie the HoS and the oceans themselves are stacked like towers, the problem is I don’t think this is enough to go from 1-A to High 1-A. Although, we should wait for more knowledgeable tiering system experts to evaluate your justification.

The reason why I don’t think the oceans can warrant High 1-A based off what you’ve said is because High 1-A is supposed to be inaccessible to 1-A and any extension of it. Meaning you’d need to prove that these oceans are unreachable to not only the HoS but also any potential extension of the HoS. And the only being in the Unwritten from what I see that does this is the mother Leviathan since any story that can be manifested will always be a part of its dream.
 
I was asked to comment, and have read through the thread. I'm completely unfamiliar with this verse, though, and it seems like supporters are already discussing the lore aspects. I think I'll opt to wait for more discussion to take place before I take any sort of side on the accuracy of the scaling chain.

That said, I can comment on 1-A in the meantime.
Xearsay said:
Yes the oceans underlie the HoS and the oceans themselves are stacked like towers, the problem is I don’t think this is enough to go from 1-A to High 1-A. Although, we should wait for more knowledgeable tiering system experts to evaluate your justification.
Click to expand...
This is correct, but it does make a difference.

An infinite layering of 1-A structures or characters, uncountable or otherwise, does not result in High 1-A, but it does result in 1-A+.
Characters that stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section.
Click to expand...
For a character to reach High 1-A, they simply have to be qualitatively superior to the upper limit of 1-A, including any higher infinites or cardinals.
 
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Also, thank you to FinePoint and PrinceofPein for helping out here. 🙏
 
Last seen Dec 27, 2022. he aint coming

short version on what The Unwritten cosmology currently are.

Hierarchy of Stories (HoS)= 1-A+
Back then this accepted due to the fact that StoryTeller in The Unwritten could add dimension beyond 3-D in their Stories, even if there proof of the dimension qualitative superiority it still will not hold by now standart.

To clarify again Stories is Infinite and they can write their own Story.

so please evaluate this better feat
Samael_010 said:
At the end of The Unwritten. to save the world Wilson Taylor use the Maanim to turn his son Tom to a complete fictional character, with this he made the event of The Unwritten doesnt exist. It was revealed The Unwritten become something noneless as a fiction that wilson write. This proof that Writer in the unwritten can do more than that, because you know Unwritten Cosmology
Click to expand...



Hierarchy of Whales/Catacean Hierarchy = Hight 1-A+
Still discussing about this, the OP explain it.


First Leviathan/Mother of Leviathan = Hight 1-A+
self explanatory, she was the biggest Leviathan and exist beyond the Catacean.
 
Samael_010 said:
Last seen Dec 27, 2022. he aint coming

short version on what The Unwritten cosmology currently are.

Hierarchy of Stories (HoS)= 1-A+
Back then this accepted due to the fact that StoryTeller in The Unwritten could add dimension beyond 3-D in their Stories, even if there proof of the dimension qualitative superiority it still will not hold by now standart.

To clarify again Stories is Infinite and they can write their own Story.

so please evaluate this better feat



Hierarchy of Whales/Catacean Hierarchy = Hight 1-A+
Still discussing about this, the OP explain it.


First Leviathan/Mother of Leviathan = Hight 1-A+
self explanatory, she was the biggest Leviathan and exist beyond the Catacean.
Click to expand...
Unwritten isn't mentioned=Sleep

Unwritten could be Downgraded=AWAKE
 
FinePoint said:
For a character to reach High 1-A, they simply have to be qualitatively superior to 1-A+.

The tiering page makes this fact appear needlessly complicated by insisting on bringing up abstract mathematical concepts like inaccessible cardinals, and using those to compare the difference between 1-A and High 1-A, despite there already being a sort of in-between tier in the form of 1-A+ which is a much more useful and digestible basis for comparison.
Click to expand...
That’s interesting. I was probably over complicating this then. Since we already we kind of agreed the hierarchy of stories was 1-A+ and that a single ocean transcends the HoS. According to what you’re saying, wouldn’t an infinite amount of these oceans stacked like towers underlying each other be infinitely into High 1-A?

Assuming this is the case, the final whale/Leviathan from which everything regressed should probably be tier 0 and not infinitely into High 1-A.
 
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Xearsay said:
Assuming this is the case, the final whale/Leviathan from which everything regressed should probably be tier 0 and not infinitely into High 1-A.
Click to expand...
I don't know, I'll look through the linked explanation later and see if I can create an informed opinion.

My first concern is what it means by them being stacked on top of each other.

Physically, something stacked on top of another thing just makes the same structure physically larger, but not qualitatively so.

I.e. - You'd have to prove that each ocean is qualitatively (more than infinitely) superior to the previous ocean, since those are the "layers" we talk about in the tiering system at this level.

If taken literally, and assuming the scaling chain you've presented is true, then them being "stacked on top of each other" only pushes them vaguely further into the first layer of baseline High 1-A, and would only put the Leviathan at the second layer just above baseline High 1-A.
 
Well, "The Unwritten" is based on the concepts of stories within stories within stories that are fictional to the level above, and all of them within the dreams of The Leviathan/the collective unconscious.
 
FinePoint said:
My first concern is what it means by them being stacked on top of each other.

Physically, something stacked on top of another thing just makes the same structure physically larger, but not qualitatively so.

I.e. - You'd have to prove that each ocean is qualitatively (more than infinitely) superior to the previous ocean, since those are the "layers" we talk about in the tiering system at this level.
Click to expand...
Its qualitative superior yes, I assume you already read part of what is the Leviathan in that blog.
The Ocean is not exactly an "Ocean" its a Metaphors for human conciousness, dream and Stories which is a substance that every Leviathan Species live in. and so with this you probably get it now, each ocean is represent every conciousness are there in a story and so stacked up like tower represent how many are there. this also enchanced by the argument above on how the Whales see the HoS and eachother as a dream. its also said with a Metaphors in The Unwritten like how other whales inside another whales.

https://www.cbr.com/carey-and-gross-on-the-unwritten-and-the-ship-that-sank-twice/

Gross: Also, water tends to symbolize the unconscious and dreams and stories. For us, it's kind of the same thing. Water is the medium that Leviathan lives in and that sustains Leviathan whether it's our subconscious or the substance that stories are made of. It just works as a great metaphor.

Also really need staff opinion on this feat.
Samael_010 said:
sandman31 reasoning for HoS is based on old standart so i got another scan.

at the end of The Unwritten. to save the world Wilson Taylor use the Maanim to turn his son Tom to a complete fictional character, with this he made the event of The Unwritten doesnt exist. it was revealed The Unwritten become something noneless as a fiction that wilson write. This proof that Writer in the unwritten can do more than that, because you know Unwritten cosmology.
Click to expand...
 
Confluctor said:
I think changing justifications in this case is much better than downgrading it. The justifications are outdated, but the story itself does fit the criteria for the tier it has currently.
Click to expand...
@Confluctor

Please elaborate.
 
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