The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

[Mr.Cutlery]

GOSHOUWA KUDASAI, KARE NO NA WO!

This is where discussions regarding The Ultra Series will now go to.

I will start first by asking again the question I asked in the old wiki: Should we ever find time to make Bullton's page, should we include or not his game appearances?

Alright, don't fail me now, guys. >_<

Important Topic Shortcuts

Page 1: AP feats, scans and such
Page 9: Scaling Chain Finalization

 

[Peter1129]

So yeah anyways I’ve been hanging around the chinese ultraman forum these days and I realized we’ve actually had a 4-B statement ever since the first Ultraman series. So whenever CRTs are allowed we could probably upgrade most of the High 4-C chracters to 4-B using this statement.

And about Bullton I guess I would first ask if his game appearance is canon to the series in any way?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Well, UFE:Rebirth has an original story campaign, but no, it doesn't tie in any way to the canon of anything. So far, at least. So yeah.

Also, that's curious, what's this statement?

 

[Peter1129]

Zetton’s 1 trillion degree fireball can instantly destroy the solar system in one shot. This was apparently a rather famous statement known among the Chinese Ultraman fandom. Couldn’t find the exact statement until recently.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Okay, even though it's already translated, I decided to retranslate some part and yes: it does say that the attack is capable of annihilating an entire solar system. Though, given the fact that we can't be as lenient as the Kamen Rider verse, I feel this would at best be a possibility in the tiering.

 

[Jasonsith]

Just pass by.

 

[SunDaGamer]

When CRTs come around then we should probably upgrade Beryudora to 4-B.

I don't think that Bullton's game appearance should be accounted since Ultraman Fighting Evolution Rebirth is it's own thing.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Well, I changed Beryudora to 4-B with the link to the archived thread because of the new Content Revision policy

I also revisted IF's flight speed calc here what do you think about it?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Boi when Ultra Galaxy Fight: The Absolute Conspitacy drop out, there will be a lots scaling change, even the New Gen scaling was already confusing enough

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ah, right, the revision. Forgot to apply it, thanks for doing it.

And uh, I haven't been on the calculation game in a while though, but I think the calc looks pretty good.


Nah, TAC will just elevate everyone to Low 2-C. I'm joking of course.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Now that Beryudora is 4-B, what else scales with that?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Given that Zero got what is seemingly a permanent power-up from the Plasma Spark, he should be the only one who directly scales. The rationale should be that he was the one who delivered the killing blow on Belial, who was the one keeping Beryudora together in the first place. The others should probably be High 4-C+ for providing support, since they seem to have actually held Beryudora back in the time Zero approached the Plasma Spark.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Given that Zero got what is seemingly a permanent power-up from the Plasma Spark, he should be the only one who directly scales. The rationale should be that he was the one who delivered the killing blow on Belial, who was the one keeping Beryudora together in the first place. The others should probably be High 4-C+ for providing support, since they seem to have actually held Beryudora back in the time Zero approached the Plasma Spark.

Content Revision time

 

[SunDaGamer]

btw was this revision ever done fully?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

No. Gonna have to restart that thread at some point, including the new tiering proposals.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

With the new updates implemented, we should probably get to revising the necessary ones plus adding some new profiles which their later incarnations scale to.

Just to list some things to keep in mind for the future revisions:
*Remove all statements regarding M78 Ultra beams being capable of tearing through the atoms. If possible, find scans that specifically states the nature of the Specium Ray.
*Split Zero into two pages, one for his era which lists from his debut, all the way to UZF and the other for Post-Zero Era starting from Ginga S to Z.
-Alternatively, we could omit some keys like Gaiden and compress his New Gen appearances between when he is relevant and when he isn't.
*Updates on profiles in general.
*Judar's page. Going by several factors, like Hikari's statement and the fact his threat was recognized by King, we should propose him to be bumped into outright 3-A.

Pages to add:
*Most New Gen Ultras.

Now, to top it off with a question, is it possible to reach Low 2-C? So far, our most trustworthy source would be Grimdo and subsequently Tregear. Grimdo, according to the novel was sealed in order to keep the universe's stability. Now, that might be vague, but I see no reason not to believe it wasn't referring to all of space-time. This is all we can get for now, so hopefully we get an English translation of New Gen Climax. Unless some of you downloaded the chinese dub and can translate it for us. Meanwhile, I'll look around for scans regarding the original excerpts from the Novel and anything regarding Grimdo.

 

[Peter1129]

Haven’t watched New Generation Climax in a while and the movie was honestly the worst out of the New Generation movies but I could give it a rewatch and see if they mentioned anything worthwhile about it.

Also if nobody is making Greeza I call dibs on making it.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

It's the best anyone can do. But yeah, holler up if you find that worthwhile thing.

I was planning to, but go ahead.

 

[Peter1129]

Peter1129/Sandbox2

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is what I have so far. I’ll add the abilities for it’s final form tomorrow. Since thats going to take a while due to how many monsters it absorbed. I would also like to discuss which abilities I forgot to add for Greeza tomorrow. Also I’m not sure what to write for it’s ability descriptions.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Limited time and matter manipulation should be added for the X version, given he could reanimate and turn monsters into Spark Dolls. Might also work for Z version since Bullton was meant to redirect all forms of anomaly including temporal ones. Existence Erasure via absorption works too, unless it was stated that his regular energy attacks was also stated to be capable of such.

Extra note, all top tiers would be At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C once the revisions are done.

And speaking of Greeza, he should have effectively be Low 2-C in Z since he embodies the anomalies of the entire universe and is said to return all to nothing with Bullton no longer around to redirect the anomalies. Most likely a metaphorical thing, but it's worth pondering about because it gives me a headache knowing TsuPro wants to make them stronger but is constantly vague about it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

That will scaled to X and Z, right?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Which case are you referring to? If X and Z scale to the new tiering? Whether both versions of Greeza would have the same abilities? If so, it's yes to both.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yes, that what i mean

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah Greeza should also have those abilities. His existence erasure would be kinda terrible though since it takes him a while to actually erase the stuff he absorbs. It didn’t instantly erase all the monsters that it absorbed which allowed X to free them all and weaken him by letting it swallow a second Xlugger. Geed also wasn’t instantly erased even after being absorbed for at least half a day.

So I haven’t really been caught up to the revisions. What is the reason for High 3-A likely Low 2-C top tiers?

Honestly I’m not sure if I agree with Low 2-C Greeza because of being an anomaly. It’s really vague and I’d rather have actual Low 2-C feats or statements like destroying, creating, or merging with the universe like King.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I think with the case of Geed, it's more of a plot thing, or because Geed resists because he's based. The people he absorbed at the start of Z #15 were completely gone. On the Spark Dolls, I don't think it's because Greeza's existence erasure has a limit, it's more because he absorbed them after X's suicide attack which gave him a corporeal body, no longer making him a void.

The reasoning for the new tier is in accordance to the proposals here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/ultraman-zero-and-belial-revisions.41088/

Basically, the Childhood Radiation in its entirety would be Low 2-C (and subsequently King), for supporting the entire Side Space Universe's continuum, and since the RMM capsule only contains a small amount of it, Geed would be High 3-A as per the rule regarding scaling a character who has a small amount of a Low 2-C character's power.

Edit: On Greeza's hypothetical rating, I know, it was never meant to be considered in the first place.

 

[Peter1129]

So about the High 3-A thing. Wasn’t there like a thread a few months back that talked about the standards of High 3-A being changed or something? Cause looking at the tiering system now High 3-A seems to just be infinite 3-D now. Having a small amount of 4-D power doesn’t seem to be considered High 3-A anymore. Or maybe I’m just reading it wrong and having a small amount of 4-D power is still High 3-A.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I'm sure there was, except it's said that the revisions were never carried out. It was also Ant who actually agreed that it can at least warrant At least High 3-A. Or, at least Possibly Low 2-C.

 

[Peter1129]

Ehh I think it’s safer to make a thread and discuss this again. Ant gave the okay last year and I’m pretty sure this High 3-A standard thing happened sometime this year.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Why not, that's what the revisions will be used for anyway.

 

[Peter1129]

Ehh I guess. So this would mean the Greeza in Z would be High 3-A since he was able to defeat Galaxy Rising which is stated to be Geed’s strongest form. The Greeza from X won’t scale since Zaigorg who was equal to that Greeza was easily defeated by Royal Mega Master who possesses a small amount of King’s power.

Peter1129/Sandbox2

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is what I have so far for Greeza. I’ll add his ability galleries later. By the way, what resistances should Greeza have? Should we list all the known ones or do we just chalk it up to it having resistance to all these things due to being nonexistent? Also now that I think about it since Geeeza doesn’t exist in any way shape or form would his regeneration be considered Low-Godly or Mid-Godly? Cause looking back at the descriptions I think Mid-Godly fits Greeza more than Low-Godly.

Finally does anyone know how to add music to the profiles? I kinda want to add Greeza’s theme onto his page.

 

[Peter1129]

Oh right also Zero's strongest form got retconned. Shining is now his strongest form once again not Beyond.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I already knew Shining is his true strongest form of all of his forms

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Since I wasn't able to find it, explosion manipulation should also be added since just him flying around blew up the buildings in Z. And yes, Mid-Godly should be his level of regeneration.

I'm also unsure about what resistances Greeza should have. If it isn't already there, I'll make a thread asking what resistances characters with nonexistent physiology or walking voids should have by default.

Finally, on Shining. I completely agree with that decision to make it Zero's strongest form.

unrelated, but Z for Touhou 18

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Question: What do you think about that one scene in Geed's finale before King manifested his other forms? Would you consider it a power-up?

 

[Peter1129]

Oh right that should qualify for explosion manipulation. I only put explosion manipulation in his final form after absorbing EX Red King.

Well reading the page for Void Manipulation it seems like Greeza by default is resistant to existence erasure so that’s one. Also in the novel Tregear admitted that he can’t do a thing against Greeza despite being able to change Leugocyte’s genetic information. So that would also give Greeza resistance or immunity to biological manipulation which makes sense since he’s just a void and doesn’t have a physical body. Don’t remember any other notable resistance though.

Huh now that I think about it what type of nonexistent physiology does Greeza qualify for?

Although I remember seeing a statement in the Chinese fandom I think from the data book that said because Greeza is nonexistent he is able to reduce any and all damage down to 0. Basically you could hit him with physical and energy attacks but he takes 0 damage from them since he’s a literal void.

Only reason he was defeated in X was because the Xlugger has wish granting powers. Daichi wished that he could hit Greeza which gave Greeza a physical body even though it’s only temporarily. After one day Greeza will regain his nonexistent properties and his spatial distortion powers.

If I remember correctly that scene was called Symbol of Geed in the data book and it’s supposed to be a one time thing like the Hybrid Armor X used.

And believe it or not Ultimate Final Geed is stated in the data book to be stronger than Symbol of Geed. Just like how Beta Spark X is stated to be stronger than Hybrid Armor X.

Like seriously Tsuburaya loves to power creep the crap out of old bosses and Ultras and than bring them back later on and give them a power up.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

If we take Tregear's statement as literal, that would mean Greeza would be resistant or outright immune to things like: Biological manipulation, Soul manipulation and Mind manipulation. The databook statement sounds like it could be Power Null.

Huh, where did the whole wish-granting and by extension the temporary wish come from? That same databook?

And yeah, I know Ultimate Final is meant to be stronger than the Symbol of Geed.

Initially, I wanted to say that the combination attack could be Low 2-C given that their powers directly stemmed from King's own, meaning that Ultimate Final could very well be Low 2-C, but now I'm a little iffy about it myself.

 

[Peter1129]

I mean Greeza should be immune to those right? He’s just a void and was officially stated to have no mind and intelligence. I think rather than power null it’s simply because he’s a void. Though I’m not sure if we could use that since I can’t find the statement. I’m also not exactly sure if that’s from the databook or from an interview with one of the directors. Since the Xlugger giving Greeza a physical form was actually first mentioned in an interview. But honestly the thing about him turning damage to 0 makes sense since we see Greeza get hit by both physical and energy attacks in both X and Z before gaining a physical body and still took no damage whatsoever.

And yeah the Xlugger having wish granting powers also seems to be from the databook (I think). I remember reading that Daichi wanted to see his parents which is why he saw them in the final episode of X and Greeza gaining a physical body was also because of his wish. I’ve seen it being mentioned a couple of times but I can’t find it since it gets lost in the hundreds of thousands of threads on baidu. And I don’t have a chinese phone number so I can’t even make an account to go and ask them for the scans.

Honestly I don’t think that’s enough to prove Low 2-C. King could very well have used a small portion of his power once again.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Yeah, an outright immunity actually makes sense with the context we were given from both instances.

Also, it's fine if you can't find the scans right now.

I'm aware of the possibility, so yeah, I'll keep those questions off the table for the time being.

 

[Peter1129]

So immunity to Biological Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and Mind Manipulation and Resistance to Existence Erasure right? And even if context within the show implies that Greeza likely is immune to physical attacks we still can’t give it to Greeza without actual statements right? Also imagine if Reibatos proves that Greeza somehow has a soul by reviving Greeza in Ultra Galaxy Fight 2 lol.

Sometimes I really wish I found out about the chinese Ultraman fandom back when I was in China. Cause I could’ve found so many scans if I were there when they were releasing and translating all the databooks. Now it seems like several of the scans have been deleted due to copyright or just can’t be found because too many threads. Also kinda sucks that they don’t have a wiki so they could only keep all the scans in their forums.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

The new immunities and resistance looks good. And yeah, I don't think we can say he's unable to receive physical damages because it was never really brought up, or was made an important thing for them to overcome.

Sounds painful to imagine.