The Thorn Princess vs The Cleaner (Spy × Family Vs The Best Bout Machine)

[DemonicDude]

professional assassins from across the world in a 1 vs 22 battle with the ability to hide themselves from their senses completely and master of their weapons. Are they even capable of wiping an entire military troop by themselves

Professional Assassian vs Professional MMA, Lucha Libre, Kick Boxing are different world.
Heck several moves in martial arts alone can counter precivsion strikes and Lucha libre style is a high flying style of combat via jumping and connecting knees on the side of the skull, Even if Kenny is hurt as during one match he got beaten before he even got the ring he still one one strike was able to take down the fighter and proceed to wint he fight. Fighting against agility users who can climb walls and drop kicks instantly is something Kenny has been doing for well over 2 decades.


As far as military training vs professional wrestlers and martial arts ins kill goes i'll let Random give some comments on such a scenario on whether Military training is superior or combining all martial art styles during combat is. (Kenny is already attacked by 5 vs 1 in a Bullet Club his own grop as well as high flying Lucha wrestlers aka the United Empire group in a 1 vs 3). Kenny on top of all these skills for over a decade was trained by his long time friend Kota Ibushi (Kota is both a Martial artist and a Karate tournament winner) This stack of skill and also IN CANON in his verse is recognized as the "The greatest professional wrestler of all time" as well as "The God of Professional Wrestling") by wrestling fall of famer Jim Ross himself whose been giving analysis of fights of wrestling all over the globe since 1980's. So you are indeed facing the absolute best of best this industy has to offer and peak skill of the verse) so Profesional Assains is "term" not a feat. while Omega has achieved this feat and earned this title and on screen for over 2+ decades proved why he is the latter.
What those assassin's did can not be seen or proven as compared to defeating MMA, Lucha, Grapping, Wrestling and Shoot style fighters.

 

[Tanin_iver]

So Yor can still react to guns even if she is technically slower.

And besides, if Yor somehow loses due to being at a disadvantage from a shotgun she usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against

Dammit u caught me duping

Yor's range, poison, pressure points, aura, acrobatics, afterimage creation, instinctive reaction, etc... would like to say hi as well

Both of their ranges are similar with Kenny's shotgun and her throwing needles more or less. She needs to get close for pressure points and she will be kept in bay because of shotgun. Her IR gets negated with his IR and he has precog which she has no counter for (u haven't debunked this). She is more acrobatic but his power mimicry, AD, marksmanship should help bridge the gap eventually, and for afterimages precog may help tho not sure.

It makes my life easier since I stand alone in arguing for Yor

Well a debate isn't fun if its one sided.

They both serve to alerting Yor and Ken to attacks coming at them. Why are so hung on this

Bcos u are misunderstanding/misinterpreting their abilities.
Yor's ability allows her to detect threats through malicious intents of opponents. It means she can figure out if an opponent is a real threat even if on the exterior the opponent may not hide his real intentions/emotions.
This kind of ability can be useful in a vs match for example when say a character needs to say get close for a one shot kill. So, Yor could detect the opponents malicious intentions and avoid it getting too close and start engaging beforehand even if the opponent may try to hide his real intentions.
While Kenny's ability is analytical prediction which see's an opponent and predicts its moves, it works like minor precog. (And their IR's cancel each other so Kenny has the ultimate advantage in the end due precog and what I I explained above).

I feel like we are just going to repeat each other on these points. I will stand by my points and haven't seen anything that changes it.

I will continue to keep my vote for Yor. Whether you vote for Kenny or Yor is up to you.

U haven't debunked the precog advantage.
Well in reality Yor should solo all such wrestlers in the wiki, but going by the profiles this is actually a hard battle for her.
And I don't know why Kenny isn't in Joke Battles wiki instead of here. But, why not ig

 

[DemonicDude]

I think literally both of us gave our best, Both sides has given skills, Both sides have given analysis and so did other users after reading both profiles I don't really see a much further point in debating and trying to top one another we all have given our best.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'm at school right now, so can't give any input lel.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

As far as military training vs professional wrestlers and martial arts ins kill goes i'll let Random give some comments on such a scenario on whether Military training is superior or combining all martial art styles during combat is

It really depends on how skilled the person in military training is.

The professional wrestler has a far more versatile fighting style, though.

Military training might be a bit more lethal.

 

[DemonicDude]

I'm at school right now, so can't give any input lel.

Arghhhhh School

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'm honestly leaning towards Incon here.

In terms of CQC, I'd say they're roughly even. Both have many, many ways to counter each other in combat.

Kenny's main win cons are teleportation, accelerated development, and of course, V-Trigger and One-Winged Angel.

Yor has her poisons that will most likely take down Kenny the moment he gets injected. She also has her PP attacks, which will be a KO for her if connected.

They have multiple win cons, it's just a matter of who will get the final hit, and that's honestly hard to decide.

 

[Pikaman]

I'm honestly leaning towards Incon here.

Becoming your damn catchphrase

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Becoming your damn catchphrase

IncondomGuy2345

 

[Pikaman]

IncondomGuy2345

You haven’t thought this one through buddy have you

 

[Tanin_iver]

I think literally both of us gave our best, Both sides has given skills, Both sides have given analysis and so did other users after reading both profiles I don't really see a much further point in debating and trying to top one another we all have given our best.

Well that's the fun part of debating i.e Topping one another.
Apologies if I have sounded rude or irritating or instigating.
Anyways I haven't voted for anyone yet, I was just arguing for Kenny.

 

[DemonicDude]

Well that's the fun part of debating i.e Topping one another.
Apologies if I have sounded rude or irritating or instigating.
Anyways I haven't voted for anyone yet, I was just arguing for Kenny.

you said nothing wrong I wasn't reffering to anyone I was just saying we all tried our best in this battle lol

 

[DemonicDude]

One thing I didn't mention is

• Social Influencing (When Omega was young and training to became a wrestler decades ago in 2008, A year later he begin to perform infront of small audiences and meet a Japanese wrestler who came to United States named Kota Ibushi who himself is a Karate champion who became so influenced by Omega's style that he and Omega instead of fighting against each other together went to Japan and became beloved tag team champions loved by the audience for their style and charisma known as "The Golden Lovers". Years later Omega became smarter getting now into dirty bussiness as he started to attack people from behind and was good at making offers, Omega was so influential that the evil group the Bullet Club who choose him as the leader of the Bullet Club dethroning Aj Styles as they believe he is the better choice. Kenny despite being an evil character now fans seems to love Omega's Bullet club violent run so much he broke the record of merchandise sales. Omega convinced Cody Rhodes and tag team champions Young Bucks to murder Adam Cole with poison juice after becoming the leader of the group resulting in Cole's death. Kenny has a very strong will he was assaulted by Cody Rhodes who is very influential wrestler. Who gave order to the Bullet Club members to savagely attack Kota Ibushi to which they all agreed however Kenny refuses despite knowing that him not following the orders of the villainous group is gonna result in him being kicked but he refuses to get convinced by others)

• In Professional wrestling: Wrestlers uses their mic skill which is a form of social influencing to stop someone from attacking 8:14 Time stamp

Kenny has already made many evil offers and is knowing for convincing people to Join Bullet Club and made others do many crime as he's no stranger of the underground evil.

Kenny after knows her weapons that they are indeed Poisonous via analyzing, Will use his absolute peak MMA skills in the combat, Yor in the show does not on daily basis meets people who can rival her and instantly kills them. But........after seeing the agility and combat style of Kenny she'll notice this is no ordinary person.
Kenny in the mid of the fight where she is about to deliver the death blow will stop her and will ask "You have great potential, What if I were to tell you to join the Bullet Club, my stable with absolute best of the best assassins of the world"

Depending on what jobs of assassination Yor takes in her daily life she could benefit from this, she would want to join such a powerful stable for multiple reasons:
A-Apply to assassination job/Money
B-Would see the potential to meet the absolute best assassinations of the world
C-Coming from the mouth of such a great combat fighter in Kenny these offers will be believable enough to momentarily convince her

This would let her guard down as it would give Kenny the opening to deliver the Invisible Chainsaw or use teleportation + V-Trigger for a knock out strike or use his Exploding Barbed wire for a headshot. This is how in the verse of Professional Wrestling Social Influencing work and in the end of the battle will play a major role.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Depending on what jobs of assassination Yor takes in her daily life she could benefit from this, she would want to join such a powerful stable for multiple reasons:
A-Apply to assassination job/Money
B-Would see the potential to meet the absolute best assassinations of the world
C-Coming from the mouth of such a great combat fighter in Kenny these offers will be believable enough to momentarily convince her

Well, one of the professional assassins from the boat cruise already try to propose a legitimate business proposition to her in the middle of combat before, offering her portions of an enormous bounty (large enough to attract every hit man from across the world) if she was to stand down but Yor responded that she wasn't interested in mind games.

She does do her assassin work for money (although stated that she has enough money already to support her family even if she did quit) and her country, but that isn't all. She does her work primarily because she wants to protect her love ones' carefree lives and will continue to keep fighting because that goal even if it means living a life where her life could end at any moment and have to bloody her hands. The potential to meet the absolute best assassinations of the world wouldn't interest her because that is not her desire/goal

 

[Pikaman]

It will probably forces Yor to use her stealth to get by. And her stealth is comparable to those who can effectively completely hide from other professional assassin like her and her senses and could hide her malice til the moment she is attacking. She was able to sneak behind the likes of Twilight with his senses when she didn’t mean to

That is true, but Yor has no way to anticipate (or at least counter) the Time Stop the first time around. It’ll be pretty helpful for Kenny, and could be massive depending on the usage of a finisher or not

His Prediction is matched by her ability to detect his bloodlust and malice

Honestly I looked at the Analytical Prediction scans and I am flabbergasted. It’s not even close to Analytical Prediction. It needs removing ASAP

pressure point techniques

Wait Kenny still has pressure points? We agreed a while back finishers aren’t pressure points, just higher AP (there are revisions ongoing for WWE finishers but they don’t apply to Kenny since he’s AEW/NJPW)

Speed Amp

What speed amp?

Sneaking is not going to work because he is a cyborg and has Camera installed on his eyes and Homing Target will keep Lock on him. Yor can not escape from his view to begin with.

Yor would still only have to escape his line of sight or disappear into darkness, since the camera has the same field of vision as his human eye

Indeed, he does have an invisible chainsaw that makes lots of noise, wield it in two hands, required him to get close to Yor with her poison weapons, pressure points and higher LS where she can turn it against him with ease.

Yor has no reason to take the invisible chainsaw seriously, it could catch her off guard and chop her to pieces, and if she tried grabbing a turned on chainsaw without knowing where the blade ends and the handle starts, she would just mangle her hands

By teleporting, you mean this video where he has to stay in a certain position for quite a while to do so

Not to mention thats not combat applicable if that’s its only showing yes I am aware of the irony of me talking about combat applicability of teleportation

Ha! I like your taste, considered yourself followed by this fanta!

Consider the favour returned!

One thing I never understood was that why we need to make a CRT on a calculation that was already accepted.

Because of things like this (before you clown on me this was my first ever thread)

This argument urghhh.... Read the Versus Thread Rules

So Yor can still react to guns even if she is technically slower.

For once this argument actually has validity. This applies to hax, if you have certain hax from superhuman speed you retain that hax even if you get speed equalised to snail’s pace. That doesn’t apply to Yor dodging bullets through speed.




Ok, that’s all the arguments I had gripes with. Essentially, I think Kenny holds a marginally better CQC record, but his defences against Yor’s attacks were violently overhyped here, from teleportation to Analytical Prediction which frankly needs nuking. Yor holds PP and Poisons as very valid win-cons, and her fighting style is a bit more lethal, but Kenny’s finishers and chainsaw are equally effective, and things like time stop help him set it up. Neither side’s arguments were flawless, which makes this one a little tricky to evaluate, but I think Kenny probably clutches this in one of the closest matches in the verse’s history. I honestly could be swayed in a single well put together post - that’s how tight it is - but for now I vote for Kenny

 

[DemonicDude]

Honestly I looked at the Analytical Prediction scans and I am flabbergasted. It’s not even close to Analytical Prediction. It needs removing ASAP

It needs a discussion ASAP you mean. Kenny isn't WWE wrestler his finisher isn't Pressure point, His Knee trike and Back head kick is treated as Pressure point both are NOT his finishers.

 

[DemonicDude]

What if Random is Pika from an alternate Universe

 

[KobsterHope07]

Yor has no reason to take the invisible chainsaw seriously, it could catch her off guard and chop her to pieces, and if she tried grabbing a turned on chainsaw without knowing where the blade ends and the handle starts, she would just mangle her hands

Why? When he does it, it makes lots of noise, the actions he does when revving it up and not to mention, Yor has shown to lack common sense as she didn’t even blink an eye when Loid uses "concussive therapy" to beat up the criminals he says are his "patients”. She may not be able to see it, but she can still sense his malice and know something dangerous is coming.

Also, I’m curious on a point, does it actually chop people to pieces? The video in its justification does not show it tbh. The other guy was able to grab the chainsaw as it was about to coming down upon them and didn’t lose a limb or something

For once this argument actually has validity. This applies to hax, if you have certain hax from superhuman speed you retain that hax even if you get speed equalised to snail’s pace. That doesn’t apply to Yor dodging bullets through speed.

I believe it does apply to her ability to dodge bullet. That‘s like saying due to speed equalized, a character that can consistently react to lightning suddenly lose the ability to do so if their speed is equalized to like Superhuman

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Pika does make a pretty good argument for Kenny.

Yor has shown to lack common sense as she didn’t even blink an eye when Loid uses "concussive therapy" to beat up the criminals he says are his "patients”

Then Kenny's Social Influencing is 100% a wincon.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Then Kenny's Social Influencing is 100% a wincon.

She’s not the brightest in the world but she know better than to let herself be taken in by mind games/business propositions in the middle of active combat

 

[RandomGuy2345]

She’s not the brightest in the world but she know better than to let herself be taken in by mind games/business propositions in the middle of active combat

I mean, Yor legit bought a terrible lie from Loid. What's stopping Kenny from using his SI to **** with her?

Sure, she's extremely smart in combat, but in terms of common sense, she tends to fumble the bag a bit more often than not.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, Yor legit bought a terrible lie from Loid. What's stopping Kenny from using his SI to **** with her?

Well, one of the professional assassins from the boat cruise already try to propose a legitimate business proposition to her in the middle of combat before, offering her portions of an enormous bounty (large enough to attract every hit man from across the world) if she was to stand down but Yor responded that she wasn't interested in mind games.

 

[KobsterHope07]

I mean, Yor legit bought a terrible lie from Loid. What's stopping Kenny from using his SI to **** with her?

Sure, she's extremely smart in combat, but in terms of common sense, she tends to fumble the bag a bit more often than not.

That the fact this is actual combat.

She is not fighting as Yor, the naive clerk, she is fighting as Thorn Princess, the legendary assassin who has success rate of probably 100% in terms of getting rid of targets and is revered by other assassins. She is usually sent in-character by Shopkeeper to assassinate targets in the name of world peace and is more than happy to do so. As stated on her profile, her demeanor is different than how she normally acts when on the job

 

[KobsterHope07]

Pika does make a pretty good argument for Kenny.

Though he made some points about the removal of Pressure Points and Analytical Prediction. And the fact that the teleportation is not combat applicable.

Sounds like another CRT for the verse in addition to the AP

 

[Pikaman]

Not to mention a lot of Kenny’s Social Influencing relies on outskilling by a noticeable margin or provocation, the former isn’t available to him here and the latter is an asset, but not a direct win-con

 

[Pikaman]

Though he made some points about the removal of Pressure Points and Analytical Prediction. And the fact that the teleportation is not combat applicable.

Sounds like another CRT for the verse in addition to the AP

Yeah, probably a CRT needs made but I’m doing the Genshin revisions next, and as long as we just use word of mouth and discard the 2 abilities we should be fine for this match

 

[KobsterHope07]

Yeah, probably a CRT needs made but I’m doing the Genshin revisions next, and as long as we just use word of mouth and discard the 2 abilities we should be fine for this match

Yep

With all that have been said, everybody that come to this thread can now look over the arguments presented over this 60 posts thread, taking into mind everything that was said and look at the profiles, and come to a solid conclusion; To vote for Yor, Kenny or Inconclusive if people believe that both combatants have equal chances of taking the other down/can’t decide

 

[Pikaman]

That‘s like saying due to speed equalized, a character that can consistently react to lightning suddenly lose the ability to do so if their speed is equalized to like Superhuman

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Reacting to lighting is a speed feat, and thus is affected by the equalisation of speed. Creating a tornado or travelling through time with speed is hax, and thus we allow the character to use it even if their speed is dampened. In the same way, Yor dodging bullets with speed gets equalised, and she’ll have to rely on stealth and mobility to avoid getting shot.

Why? When he does it, it makes lots of noise, the actions he does when revving it up and not to mention, Yor has shown to lack common sense as she didn’t even blink an eye when Loid uses "concussive therapy" to beat up the criminals he says are his "patients”. She may not be able to see it, but she can still sense his malice and know something dangerous is coming.

She’ll know something is off but I don’t think she can possibly anticipate an invisible chainsaw, no matter how many red flags there are

Also, I’m curious on a point, does it actually chop people to pieces? The video in its justification does not show it tbh. The other guy was able to grab the chainsaw as it was about to coming down upon them and didn’t lose a limb or something

Good point actually, it doesn’t draw blood in the scan. Still, it’s obviously a rather devastating weapon

 

[DemonicDude]

I'm almost certain I've seen in the old NJPW VHS tapes of it causes blood
Here are some examples
His Teleporting basically it falls under
same argument as Demon Balor teleporting not happening in the combat It's part of the character plus he doesn't need it to predict or counter Yor which he can do via pure dodging skill feats in CQC. As for Pressure Point's he already proved that against martial art legend himself in the CQC scene where Kenny who about to be hit with the karate strike in the neck then dodge it and proceed to knock him out.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'd say Incon is the best option to go here.

 

[DemonicDude]

With the Skill, Chainsaw, Cyborgization info analysis, Target lock, Social Influence, CQC/High Damage strikes I'm confident in keeping my vote too and we've been over this.
Going to sleep gn

 

[Pikaman]

His Teleporting basically it falls under
same argument as Demon Balor teleporting not happening in the combat

No. They’re two distinctly different moments

Kenny used his teleportation to get around, The Demon used it to get the jump on a group of opponents

One is far more easily argued as combat applicable than the other

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

The main reasons I'll be voting Kenny is teleportation, accelerated development, and invisible chainsaw. Those are dang good and he kinda actually counters Yor's usualy Poison MO

I don't think social influencing really works on Yor. Although she did have that slipup where she was nearly killed in that ship arc I don't think that speaks levels on her.

Though a tie is good too, I'll swap to that if there's more tie votes later. But for now I vote Kenny. Great debating from both sides tho

 

[Pikaman]

Honestly I’m opposed to an incon, it’s tight of course, but still discernible.

 

[KobsterHope07]

The main reasons I'll be voting Kenny is teleportation, accelerated development, and invisible chainsaw. Those are dang good and he kinda actually counters Yor's usualy Poison MO

I don't think social influencing really works on Yor. Although she did have that slipup where she was nearly killed in that ship arc I don't think that speaks levels on her.

Though a tie is good too, I'll swap to that if there's more tie votes later. But for now I vote Kenny. Great debating from both sides tho

I will say that the teleportation is shown not to be combat applicable

The slipup was because during that arc, she was struggling to find the motivation to continue the life as an assassin since Yuri was now independent and didn’t need her anymore.

And thanks for the praise. It seems that I did my job on debating Yor’s side good

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I will say that the teleportation is shown not to be combat applicable

The slipup was because during that arc, she was struggling to find the motivation to continue the life as an assassin since Yuri was now independent and didn’t need her anymore.

And thanks for the praise. It seems that I did my job on debating Yor’s side good

It's tricky but if it's utilized more than Finn who has good reasons not to abuse it in a WWE match (and not in a street match) I think it's reasonable.

Oh no I'm in agreement. I was just pointing out some "mistakes" performed by characters don't necessarily mean they're vulnerable to that.

Yeah, I went in here thinking with that level of stuff on Kevin this might be a mismatch only for you to nearly convince me it's a tie.

 

[KobsterHope07]

It's tricky but if it's utilized more than Finn who has good reasons not to abuse it in a WWE match (and not in a street match) I think it's reasonable.

But that’s the thing. We don’t know if he utilized it more than Finn, hell we don’t even know if he uses it in combat since it was shown once and only once (and it wasn’t even for combat purpose/in the middle of combat). Unlike Finn (who we don’t know the method), Kenny’s requires him to take a stance (crouched down) and wait a few seconds and when he done teleporting, he is in the same stance. This is why I am skeptical on Teleportation being a factor in this battle if we don’t know Kenny utilize it to fight and have to assume he will use it in a fancy particular way

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyway, current votes?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Anyway, current votes?

Some people vote Yor, some vote Kenny, and some vote Incon.

A very divisive thread so far.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I mean the numbers lel