The Standards for Heat Resistance Seem Too Low

[Oloserian]

The Problem​

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The way the wiki currently hands out heat resistance like candy to every character shown being hit with heat-based attacks seems inconsistent with the way we treat heat. In this wiki, we seem to treat thermal energy and kinetic energy roughly the same way. This is shown in our References for Common Feats page where we, for example, calculate the durability of a character capable of surviving the heat of the Sun through the thermal energy (in Joules) withstood by the character per second. In this sense, we do not assume in our calculations that character has a specific resistance to heat, rather, they survive this because they are capable of withstanding that level of energy transfer (be it thermal or otherwise).

Despite this, a character shown surviving this feat would almost certainly be given heat resistance on their profile. Just skimming through the Heat Users category page, one can find flagrant examples. Hellboy is apparently resistant to heat because he survives an explosion that burns down a forest, despite his durability alone more than justifying him surviving it. Lord Boros is an even worse example, having heat resistance because he is said to have "evolved to be able to survive the harsh environment of his home planet" which is shown to have lava pits. Boros, having at least Tier 7 durability should be more than able to survive lava pits. Knuckles the Echidna is apparently resistant to heat by virtue of being able to withstand lightning.

Suggested solution​

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My suggestion would be to restrict giving this ability to characters who are specifically shown to be resistant to heat by way of something other than their durability. Characters that can specifically manipulate and withstand heat/fire but are otherwise not physically outstanding would be prime candidates, as the resistance would actually be a specific resistance to heat, rather than simply a product of their durability.

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[KingTempest]

Following

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, maybe?

Imo the point where this argument breaks down is that yes, substantial durability alone should grant heat resistance, therefore making listing the resistance redundant. The problem is that most action fiction don't actually treat heat, fire, and especially lava in that way. Heat is almost like acid in a lot of verses, or at the very least the durability needed to resist heat in-verse doesn't line up with IRL standards.

Look at prominent examples like One Piece (Devils' fruit users and fire technique users), Naruto (Fire style techniques), KHR (DWF), ect.
Even planet level+ dragonball characters burn and incinerate each other with normal energy blasts not even hot enough to significantly effect the surrounding environment.

So while I agree that you shouldn't just give a higher durability character this resistance based on the heat resistance feat alone, I think it should be allowed given additional context. Say, for example, we met some other people from Boros's home planet and they were tier 7's but had a very hard time dealing with the lava there; Boros should be given heat resistance in that case.

 

[Oloserian]

In the case of, for example, Dragon Ball, it's probably because the energy blasts have an energy output large enough to damage the characters. In most high-power verses, we treat fire attacks as being stronger than just regular "real world" fire. But I do agree with parts of your comment, I'd agree that if there is evidence that a verse treats fire as bypassing conventional durability, characters in the verse with resistance to it should get heat resistance

 

[Oloserian]

bump

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly I'm not even sure why it would be linked to Temperature Manip in the first place.

Extreme Resistance to stuff like fires, lightning, the sun and whatnot should just be left like "Extreme Heat" (Without linking to the Heat Manip page) or "Resistance to Fire Manip", while resisting cold would be "Resistance to Ice Manip" or "Freezing Temperatures", it's not like you're being able to resist the direct control of your temperature, just that you're mostly unaffected by whatever value it goes to.

And honestly speaking, they really should only be applied if they have feats showing as such, like Goku tanking re-entry or dipping into lava, or Saitama literally punching his way out of being frozen, etc.

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT This seems to be a topic you two are best suited to answer.

 

[Oloserian]

@KLOL506 My point is that heat resistance only as a listing makes sense when interpreted as a resistance to high temperature exclusively. Otherwise, it's just indistinguishable from having high durability, and every character with Tier 8 or above durability should get it by default (making it a pointless listing)

I'm a little reluctant to apply the same logic to freezing because I know less about it

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 My point is that heat resistance only as a listing makes sense when interpreted as a resistance to high temperature exclusively. Otherwise, it's just indistinguishable from having high durability, and every character with Tier 8 or above durability should get it by default (making it a pointless listing)

I mean, it's not like we'd give it to anyone who hasn't shown feats of Heat Resistance, like being literally on fire, tanking re-entry, lava-dipping, etc.

We don't give it to people just because they have high durability.

I'm a little reluctant to apply the same logic to freezing because I know less about it

That's another topic entirely TBF.

 

[Oloserian]

I mean, it's not like we'd give it to anyone who hasn't shown feats of Heat Resistance, like being literally on fire, tanking re-entry, lava-dipping, etc.

We don't give it to people just because they have high durability.

The problem is that, by the way the wiki treats heat, we should. We just don't because it's unintuitive. And that's the problem, either

1) We treat withstanding heat as a general durability feat;

or

2) We treat withstanding heat as a specific resistance to just heat

If we choose 1 (which is what we do currently, and I agree with), it only makes sense to assume, unless shown in the universe in question that heat somehow bypasses conventional durability, that feats of withstanding heat are just happening through conventional durability

 

[TheRustyOne]

Heat does not translate to durability whatsoever.

This wiki does not treat it like that either. We used too but we're trying to get away from that. Heat has no reason to translate to physical impact durability.

Obviously someone who is Tier 8 should be glowing and producing heat that vaporizes anything he attacks. But fiction doesn't treat it like that, so we shouldn't either.

The exception depends on the verse treating it like durability does or does not matter. In which case that verse's rules take priority.

 

[KLOL506]

Heat does not translate to durability whatsoever.

This wiki does not treat it like that either. We used too but we're trying to get away from that. Heat has no reason to translate to physical impact durability.

Unless of course it can generate overpressure like an explosion does. Just pure heat alone like normal fires shouldn't wield much, yes, it'd just be AP unless you got a universal power source or similar to treat physicals and elementals as one and the same strength level.

Obviously someone who is Tier 8 should be glowing and producing heat that vaporizes anything he attacks. But fiction doesn't treat it like that, so we shouldn't either.

DontTalkDT was actually supposed to elaborate on the topic concerning blunt-force trauma attacks vs heat-based attacks where he said that as a baseline extreme blunt-force attacks should generally be generating a tremendous amount of temperature but that extreme temperatures doesn't necessarily mean that you can output extreme blunt-force attacks. But that's a different topic altogether as well I think.

 

[Oloserian]

If this whole topic ties in with a larger discussion on how to treat thermal energy vs kinetic energy and that's not settled, I suppose this should come after that.

Heat does not translate to durability whatsoever.

This wiki does not treat it like that either. We used too but we're trying to get away from that. Heat has no reason to translate to physical impact durability.

I recall several instances where we have durability derived from feats like re-entry or withstanding the heat of the Sun. Is all that considered invalid now?

 

[KLOL506]

Unless of course it can generate overpressure like an explosion does. Just pure heat alone like normal fires shouldn't wield much, yes, it'd just be AP unless you got a universal power source or similar to treat physicals and elementals as one and the same strength level.


DontTalkDT was actually supposed to elaborate on the topic concerning blunt-force trauma attacks vs heat-based attacks where he said that as a baseline extreme blunt-force attacks should generally be generating a tremendous amount of temperature but that extreme temperatures doesn't necessarily mean that you can output extreme blunt-force attacks. But that's a different topic altogether as well I think.

OH, in case I didn't forget to mention, temperature feats are definitely AP no matter what anyone else has to say about it, we have gone through that shithole multiple times in several threads before this and have declared our decision as such, that they will never be disqualified from being AP. END OF STORY.

Now whether that scales to physical punching/kicking strength or physical dura is another matter entirely and is its own beast, as it relies on other stuff like universal energy sources, statements, the heat feat having overpressure like a typical explosion does, other extra context of amping physicals and whatnot.

 

[KLOL506]

I recall several instances where we have durability derived from feats like re-entry

Re-entry is measured by KE, not heat. You don't scale to re-entry unless you have a confirmed mass value and you crash-land to a screeching halt into the ground near-instantaneously upon impact.

or withstanding the heat of the Sun. Is all that considered invalid now?

That I believe is also based on the extreme pressure in the Sun's core, not just heat alone. At least, that's what I remember DontTalk saying, but I don't exactly remember where.

 

[Oloserian]

@KLOL506 Is this page outdated, then? It seems to use exclusively heat exclusively as a way of calculating withstanding the Sun

OH, in case I didn't forget to mention, temperature feats are definitely AP (...) Now whether that scales to physical punching/kicking strength or physical dura is another matter entirely

To clarify, does this mean there's a question on whether someone outputting a huge AP based on temperature would have their AP scale to their own durability or whether another character withstanding that attack would have it scale to physical durability?

 

[KLOL506]

To clarify, does this mean there's a question on whether someone outputting a huge AP based on temperature would have their AP scale to their own durability or whether another character withstanding that attack would have it scale to physical durability?

There's no question really.

Basically scaling that temperature-based AP to physicals would depend on whether the character is making use of a universal energy source, or the heat attack shows signs of overpressure like an explosion does (Where the pressure literally smashes the surroundings to bits), but at that point it's not really a heat-only attack now, is it?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Re-entry is measured by KE, not heat. You don't scale to re-entry unless you have a confirmed mass value and you crash-land to a screeching halt into the ground near-instantaneously upon impact.


That I believe is also based on the extreme pressure in the Sun's core, not just heat alone. At least, that's what I remember DontTalk saying, but I don't exactly remember where.

Durability required to resist the heat of the sun

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Oloserian]

@KLOL506 So as I understand it, a non-universal energy source-based attack would not scale to a character's own physical stats. But would a character withstanding that kind of attack have their physical durability scaled to it?

 

[KLOL506]

Durability required to resist the heat of the sun

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah, this one, I remember there being talks of trying to account for the extreme pressure here, but then it went literally nowhere.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, this one, I remember there being talks of trying to account for the extreme pressure here, but then it went literally nowhere.

It is a old calc. It is likely in need for a recalc tbh.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 So as I understand it, a non-universal energy source-based attack would not scale to a character's own physical stats.

If it's only temperature-based and has no showings of being able to damage the surroundings via overpressure (Once again, explosions and shockwaves and the like), yeah.

But would a character withstanding that kind of attack have their physical durability scaled to it?

Depends on whether the attack shows signs of being a physical attack capable of damaging its surroundings. But again, at that point, it's not even a temperature-based attack anymore.

 

[Oloserian]

Depends on whether the attack shows signs of being a physical attack capable of damaging its surroundings. But again, at that point, it's not even a temperature-based attack anymore.

Couldn't purely heat-based attacks damage surroundings even without overpressure? We have things like melting feats and such, right?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Couldn't purely heat-based attacks damage surroundings even without overpressure? We have things like melting feats and such, right?

At that point, we have to account for the heat transfer per second and so on.

It is in one of the laws of Thermodynamics IIRC.

 

[Oloserian]

At that point, we have to account for the heat transfer per second and so on.

It is in one of the laws of Thermodynamics IIRC.

The energy transfer per second was how I thought we treated all heat feats, but there seems to be a larger discussion on whether extreme heat necessarily translates to being able to generate extreme kinetic energy

 

[KLOL506]

At that point, we have to account for the heat transfer per second and so on.

It is in one of the laws of Thermodynamics IIRC.

Ye, we do that often, we also take energy intervals taken in one second, I believe this also applies to feats other than heat or electricity and somesuch, like stopping fast moving objects or something.

 

[KLOL506]

The energy transfer per second was how I thought we treated all heat feats,

We do, yeah. Also works for slowing down a fast-moving object over time I believe, but it's been a while since I saw a calc like that.

but there seems to be a larger discussion on whether extreme heat necessarily translates to being able to generate extreme kinetic energy

No, that's a topic of AP, not a topic of resistance.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Ye, we do that often, we also take energy intervals taken in one second, I believe this also applies to feats other than heat or electricity and somesuch, like stopping fast moving objects or something.

That is one of the Newton’s laws of motions like stopping a fast moving object.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

 

[KLOL506]

That is one of the Newton’s laws of motions like stopping a fast moving object.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

Yeah, assuming it isn't stopped dead in its tracks quickly and is stopped over a decently long period of time.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, assuming it isn't stopped dead in its tracks quickly and is stopped over a decently long period of time.

If I not mistaken, it can take account for both instances IIRC.

The problem will always taking note of the energy transfer interval IIRC.

 

[KLOL506]

If I not mistaken, it can take account for both instances IIRC.

The problem will always taking note of the energy transfer interval IIRC.

Something something insane amounts of deceleration or energy transfer direction and energy spreading out or something else that doesn't work because fiction ignores those laws.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Something something insane amounts of deceleration or energy transfer direction and energy spreading out or something else that doesn't work because fiction ignores those laws.

I am pretty sure we don’t ignore the entire laws of physics or how else we gonna do calcs?
Remember, technically speaking we do use statements, feats, and some guessworks in order to do the mathematical side of things and account for the scientific part.

 

[KLOL506]

I am pretty sure we don’t ignore the entire laws of physics or how else we gonna do calcs?
Remember, technically speaking we do use statements, feats, and some guessworks in order to do the mathematical side of things and account for the scientific part.

Yes, but we also ignore another crucial element, conservation of energy.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, but we also ignore another crucial element, conservation of energy.

Ah, shoot, I swear we might need another discussion for that topic because of that:

 

[KLOL506]

Ah, shoot, I swear we might need another discussion for that topic because of that:

Nah, we ain't the OBD wiki, AP =/= DC

Also it's literally in our Attack Potency page:

"We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well."

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Nah, we ain't the OBD wiki, AP =/= DC

That is true.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Case by case actually; on one hand. It's generally agreed by higher up staff members that withstanding X Joules/Watts of thermal energy won't guarantee withstanding X joules of blunt force trauma/overpressure. However, an X Joule punch inherently doubles as producing X joules of thermal energy manipulation because that's how friction works is that the kinetic energy of internal atoms and molecules are always moving at least as fast as the entire body is in motion to generate overpressure. For example, throwing a water balloon at mach 10 speeds would make all those water molecules run at least as fast. Though, a glass of water sitting in room temperatures would average having those water molecules as 500 m/s but that doesn't mean the glass of water is doing the equivalent of being thrown at 500 m/s.

Though, that's only if you compare pure joules to joules. Thermal energy also has multiple factors; such as the joules of thermal energy could be due to extremely high specific temperature, mass/density of a specific object, or just specific heat capacity. We could have a Tier 6 feat that is only 5000 degrees C due to having very high density and/or heat capacity which is only limited on extreme heat. But then we have attacks millions of degrees Celsius but only Tier 8 which is far more impressive at granting heat resistance on powers and abilities but won't be as impressive on the durability section. But when hit by a 100 megaton punch, they can withstand that much overpressure and that much thermal energy. But we cannot determine the specific temperature or contrast it with heat capacity. So we cannot grant resistance to extreme heat just from that detail alone unless some statements about specific temperature are mentioned.

But KLOL already explained other parts yeah.