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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
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- marvel comics
Excellence616
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J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)
As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...
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J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)
As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...vsbattles.com
I just realized... since all the scans used in the OP to support an infinite R>F hierarchy are being used for our current cosmology justifications in the Omniverse section of this blog, the CRT would immediately result in a direct loss of Marvel's High 1-A cosmology ratings.
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Eh, I don't know about that. I'm waiting on Ultima to give his two cents on what will happen and he said it could be either or.
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This might help with determining the new cosmology for Marvel.
But is a Demattis cosmology split even needed?
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Nothing ever is, but it's clear his stories are better as a stand-alone.
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Btw, the stuff about the classic Beyonder being infinite dimensional in nature would still probably mean the universal eternity cosmology is at minimum High 1-B even without Demattis.
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Yeah, probably. We've seen in the Hulk story when Beyonder was walking through Crossroads that the material world is multi-layered with an endless number of dimensions, though he's referring to the whole of the Multiverse, the actual scale could just be given to the Universal True Body of Eternity.
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Well Ultima stated in the cosmology blog and whatnot on how the evidence indicates the Beyonder to be inside Universal Eternity, so Eternity could still be high 1-B/Low 1-A.
Also I recommend that blog I linked to above.
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Btw are you sure we should damage Marvel cosmology for an author with so few appearances/profiles?
It seems to be without good reason asides from getting a tier 0.
What's Ultima's thoughts on this?
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That's not really the point. This could be said for DC since we damaged it by splitting Cosmologies. It is best that J.M. DeMatteis have his own Cosmology because his canon isn't supported much in the larger holistic canon.
So the point isn't to damage Marvel. It simply addressing to certain canon that are detached from the main story. If Marvel gets downgraded because of it then that's a shame, but that shouldn't warrant just keeping it as is.
I'm pretty sure Ultima doesn't mind. I consulted with him on this topic several times.
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He as quite a few issues (I think Google says over 400) but I agree it's just one author seems a lot of work over 1 author and 1 character, and is he just inconsistent about TOAA or has he directly contradicted about characters such as Eternity and family?
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Speaking of Eternity, how is he High 1-A+ when he got defeated by Dormammu, who was amplified by a shift in the cosmic axis, which is a hierarchy dictating how powerful abstract entities are, implying he’s bound by a hierarchy?
And if creation is High 1-A, how is Eternity High 1-A+ for embodying it?
Also, unless I’m misinterpreting something, wouldn’t these R>F layers violate the new standards if Silver Surfer can just travel through them?
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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure nothing that's not 0 is a hierarchy, especially on how the story works.
Even if you aren't referring to my work we can assume that how Eternity contains the Quantum Sea(infinite regression of the metaphysical realm). Either way, he's on the lower end of High 1-A+.
He's not physically moving through those and he didn't move through them at all.
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I am not sure if we should create a separate DeMatteis cosmology, or just ignore/not incorporate his version of it, and I am also very reluctant to readily accept that Ultima endorses this change without direct clear public statements from him.
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The original thread was to separate the profile from the Divine Creator and the One Above All. The people kept asking how his pseudo-canon would even work since his characters never worked outside his stories. So if we had no problem separating DC then I don't see how Marvel is different. If I recall correctly, you were on the notion that we could.
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Did the CRT even get accepted?
-Qawsedf disagreed with a cosmology split.
-Elizio agreed.
-Ant seems to have switched to neutral, leaning on disagree (the thread isn't concluded yet, so you can't argue he already voted and that's final).
-Firestorm said he'd agree only if there was a consensus, which I guess could be intepreted as him agreeing since the vote was 2-1, but now that Ant doesn't seem to firmly agree anymore, the vote is technically 1-1 (Elizio vs Qawsedf), thus removing Firestorm's vote.
-Qawsedf disagreed with a cosmology split.
-Elizio agreed.
-Ant seems to have switched to neutral, leaning on disagree (the thread isn't concluded yet, so you can't argue he already voted and that's final).
-Firestorm said he'd agree only if there was a consensus, which I guess could be intepreted as him agreeing since the vote was 2-1, but now that Ant doesn't seem to firmly agree anymore, the vote is technically 1-1 (Elizio vs Qawsedf), thus removing Firestorm's vote.
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I figured we’d wait for Ultima’s input before proceeding with that.
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The Cosmology split is a different thing, but the profile split needs a review again. Technically, that aspect was already accepted. The larger question at hand was if the Cosmology should be split which is 1-1 or 2-1 depending on how you view it.
Ant needs to reping the staff to get another consensus, but the majority sides with the CRT. The mods are needed to get it going.
Yuhady123
Username Only- 156
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Dont worry, Marvel has a tons of infinite dimensional stuffs and would keep its High 1-B even when someone low ball it into oblivion.
No to say, all this stuffs like "Worlds within world" "A universe is a multiverses to all of other universe of possibilities" "Omniverse" "A lager thought is contained by another larger thought" is more of the same idea but explained in different tone.
Every writers including him adopted this idea into their works. Dematteis works specifically explained this R>F Hierarchy of Universes in more detail, like this phrase "World within world" which was used by every writers.
Even without Dematteis, the scale of Main cosmology will still remain the same. Like I said above, the Main cosmology still has the its own of infinite universe contained by universe which in turn contained by multiverse. To understand what im saying, The Superflow encompassed the Earth-616 and other alternates universes, all of choices maked in universes like Earth-616 would result in branching out Earth-616-1, Earth-616-2 and infinite which Earth-616 encompasses them. Then in turn Earth-616-1 can also branch another infinite universe of possibilities and this go on infinitly just like this statement. So no in my point of view.
"As above, so below"
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Okay. I think that makes sense. Never mind. I currently agree with you then.
Yuhady123
Username Only- 156
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On second thought, if the Abstracts will become 1-A then the universes will also scale them which would make Astral Plane, Dark Dimension, any realms beyond astral plane and characters that scale to them become 1-A. Damn, Marvel is a lucky verse to have Ultima saved and gived us the glorious Marvel upgrade any verse cant get.
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I do not want the cosmology incorrectly and harshly reduced to a 5-D Earth 616 and a 7-D multiverse for the sake of having one tier 0 profile.
I doubt that Demattis had this intention of a different canon in mind when writing his own stories.
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We'll see what happens with this Demattis stuff first.
And the DD being beyond the Astral Plane would not be consistent, sadly, as Dormammu and the DD are within Earth 616.
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We get to see more of thor siblings which is nice since they barely get appearances in comics. Referance to marvel g.o.ds run with the birth of 8th cosmos forces magic and science are fighting each other for dominance. Tyr got possed by oblivion. More good feats for elder gods, tiwaz said he beat atum in his prime with wit and trickery so good feat for his magic. His rune was able to expel oblivion from tyr
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He doesn't yet we separate his stories.
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If the main continuity Cosmology gets downgraded then that's just how it'll be. However, separating the profile of the One Above All and Divine Creator has nothing to do with a Cosmology split. Rather, how is J.M. DeMatteis's story ever used where it's a focal point of other writers, clearly there's a reoccurring pattern in his work that doesn't align with the bigger canon at hand. His interpretation rarely, if ever goes beyond any of his stories. The 0 part is just a cherry on top.
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I really don't care all that much for cosmology and stuff, but I really don't see why is that character so important that we are basically creating a cosmology entirely for him.
Many authors make mistakes or are inconsistent with each other, some of which worked on marvel more than DeMatteis, and multiple authors have their own "quirks" they add to the comic as easter eggs.
It just seems really poitless to change the entire marvel cosmoly for a single author with his one character.
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So even if it is never stated to be non canon, not even by Demattis himself, we're going to split it?
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“Non-canon” isn't the issue. His stories, characters, and how he interprets Cosmology are really only congruent in his own stories. Why do you think they separate his from the main DC Cosmology? He writes exactly the same across the companies he works.
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It was not for “one character” nor is that the reason. While you can argue others make mistakes, Matteis's story is specific to his beliefs and his tie to his spiritual journey and doesn't really connect with the larger canon. It’s “how his story works with the larger canon” not “we’re changing for one profile.” I don't know how people interpret as changing the Cosmology due to a character and this isn't the first time Matteis had his own separate Cosmology.
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I'm saying that his "canon" is not something that is so significant that it's worth it's own cosmology, despite the inconsistencies it seems like we might as well split marvel cosmology by the many authors who have an interpretation that goes against the others, which there is a lot. And despite him being a good writer and all that is not like he is so important for Marvel comics as he is for DC, he created a lot of stuff for DC so I guess he is significant enough to be worth havint it's own thing, but in Marvel he doesn't have all that much to show off.
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That's because his more notable for his Spider-Man story and if anything he’s more regarded in Marvel. There's more than enough information on his take on the Cosmology to separate it unless you undermined or did not read much of his stories. He's always been clear on how he interprets his character and the Cosmology, the rest are more so minor nitpick mistakes while Matteis's “mistakes” as you call them warrant entirely different views and philosophies.
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He done a lot more DC stuff than Marvel. It's not exacly mistakes but the fact that the authors don't always talk with each other or are unaware of each other's stories one example that I just saw today in Captain Marvel comic one person sent a letter asking Marvel team if the character "Undone" who stated to be Entropy has any relation with Griever at the end of all things, to which the team answered with "Funny enough those 2 cosmic entities are NOT related - It's pure coincidence they both refer to Entropy", there are also other stuff that doesn't make much sense like the character called Life and Phoenix ect, Divine and TOAA might just be 2 characters who by coincidence share similarities and at the same time being the same
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Obviously, as I mentioned this is minor nitpicky information that doesn't disregard or warrant an entirely different view. This is a weak basis for an argument.
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If his stuff is still considered by everyone to be canon to the Marvel cosmology, we can't split it due to our own headcanons.
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By everyone you mean just the people arguing for the side of keeping the Cosmology? I, rather, wait for more input because as far as I can tell “canon” is not what's being regarded here. So, please let's not say “its headcanon” to say otherwise.
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Also, JM Demattis didn't write the issue of Fantastic Four #290, right?
Because if he didn't, the hyperspace stuff from that and the Infinite-Dimensional Beyonder stuff should ensure that the high 1-B stuff stays, and in turn Eternity should still be Low 1-A (or maybe 1-A via either BDE 2 and/or R>F)
Because if he didn't, the hyperspace stuff from that and the Infinite-Dimensional Beyonder stuff should ensure that the high 1-B stuff stays, and in turn Eternity should still be Low 1-A (or maybe 1-A via either BDE 2 and/or R>F)
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