The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[Marvel_Champion_07]

His statistics should probably be updated to match those of a Watcher.

Well, Uatu is 2-A, so I guess The Stranger can get his 2-A old rating back

 

[Antvasima]

All beyonders scale at least equal in power amd each of them are singly layers into Outerversal.

Well, they all should scale to having defeated The Living Tribunal at least.

This should go on to tell just how powerful Owen Reece is.

He has the power of several of them combined, yes.

Also Never Queen scales even to Eternity and should be superior to Beyonders.

Probably true. As I stated earlier here, we need reasonably knowledgeable volunteers to update her page and that of other characters affected by the latest Defenders comic books.

As we saw the beyonders are mere fractions of the second cosmos.

No, they just live within it.

Also the beyonder couldnt leave abyss until Never Queen had to help them.

From what I recall he mostly seemed disinterested in what was going on at the time.

Another point they used only their machine which draws power from the phoenix to be superior to Eternity, without which they are considered inferior to multiversal embodiments.

That was never clarified.

GOS Loki scales to the likes of Beyonder.

He has powerful hax, but it is very uncertain exactly how strong it is, so it seems uncertain to scale it nearly that high yet.

Toaa possibly transcends the house because Adam stated the house was only the beginning of what he represents. And toaa could show them what exist even outside the crown of creation far deep into the mystery.

That is not how I remember it. Please provide exactly worded quotes.

Finally, The mystery should be considered as the only idea in marvel that transcends even toaa, considering the crown is just one place in the endless mystery, Never Queen called it a truly infinite place and toaa even said it intrigues him as Mystery seems to be a concept of things unknown.

We will have to wait for further clarifications regarding the OAA and other entities that potentially exceed him.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Uatu is 2-A, so I guess The Stranger can get his 2-A old rating back

That seems reasonable, yes.

 

[Fitz_100]

No, they just live within it.

According to issue #2 they were made from the very potential possibilities of the second cosmos.

From what I recall he mostly seemed disinterested in what was going on at the time.

Yes, but again clearly stated his inferiority to the phoenix and considering the abyss scales opposite to the hot room it makes sense that should the beyonder try he still will be unable to leave.

That was never clarified.

It infact was, they make use of their machine which draws power from beyond the beyond as a control mechanism over creation from the outside. Issue #2 also.

He has powerful hax, but it is very uncertain exactly how strong it is, so it seems uncertain to scale it nearly that high yet.

He clearly deemed himself inferior to Glorian when with the eternity mask, he has entrapped the beyonder in his plot hax and even when the beyonder thinks he has escaped he still appears as fiction to Loki. As he said that he has seen all of his stories.

That is not how I remember it. Please provide exactly worded quotes.

I dont use discord so I really cannot send images here unless there are other ways I can do it.

We will have to wait for further clarifications regarding the OAA and other entities that potentially exceed him.

So far though no such entity exist.

 

[Gasper]

I dont use discord so I really cannot send images here unless there are other ways I can do it.

You can just quote it.

 

[Antvasima]

According to issue #2 they were made from the very potential possibilities of the second cosmos.

Please provide scans of this.

Yes, but again clearly stated his inferiority to the phoenix and considering the abyss scales opposite to the hot room it makes sense that should the beyonder try he still will be unable to leave.

He was inferior to the full Phoenix Force in the White Hot Room, yes, but we do not know anything for certain beyond that.

It infact was, they make use of their machine which draws power from beyond the beyond as a control mechanism over creation from the outside. Issue #2 also.

Scans with specific clarifications please.

He clearly deemed himself inferior to Glorian when with the eternity mask, he has entrapped the beyonder in his plot hax and even when the beyonder thinks he has escaped he still appears as fiction to Loki. As he said that he has seen all of his stories.

Glorian was definitely not superior to The Beyonder, and simply vainly tried to use illusions to get access to his power.

I dont use discord so I really cannot send images here unless there are other ways I can do it.

Imgur, Gfycat, or some other reliable upload site should work fine.

So far though no such entity exist.

We were told of something called The Great Enigma that would have a crown over everything, but that remains to be seen.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, we still need to make all of the updates to The Never Queen, The Beyonder, The Phoenix Force, etc. that I mentioned earlier here. Can we drop all of the derailment here and get back to what is most pressing to revise please?

 

[Fitz_100]

Please provide scans of this.

Unless you want me to quote I cant post scans

He was inferior to the full Phoenix Force in the White Hot Room, yes, but we do not know anything for certain beyond that.

The white hot room is said to be the exact opposing force to the abyss. Also beyonder said in or out of the hot room he is inferior to the phoenix.

Scans with specific clarifications please.

Same issue.

Glorian was definitely not superior to The Beyonder, and simply vainly tried to use illusions to get access to his power.

I meant GOS loki scales superior to Glorian and has used his powers to affect the beyonder. Affecting beings on his level of existence in this wiki shoulf make him scale.

Imgur, Gfycat, or some other reliable upload site should work fine.

Alright would try that.

We were told of something called The Great Enigma that would have a crown over everything, but that remains to be seen.

Actually this is a misinterpretation.

The entire point of defenders beyond aside loki's search for free will is the concept of mystery and how it applies to the marvel cosmology.
The defenders keeps journeying to unending layers of reality and it never ends. Just like the never queen told them, that even when they get to the "final door" which is the house of ideas the mystery still exist beyond it.

In this run we get to learn that the very crown of creation is the house of ideas and I believe it is the true form of the house when looking at it from a full perception. The house was called the crown of creation and that was what toaa showed the defenders, as their mission was to see that which exists outside creation and outside it is just endless mystery, basically the unknown.

Toaa showed them the crown and a glimpse of the enigma (which is a synonym for mystery) to come. Ewing is trying to tell a story that the greatest threat to Eternity is the unknown basically hinting that there are possibilities that will be coming for Eternity, Enigma was just a word used to represent it. That said, toaa never viewed it as a threat, as it was only described as a threat to Eternity and not the almighty.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So, we are giving Loki a God of Stories key right?
If so what tier?

 

[Antvasima]

We need a new page for Loki's modern incarnations, with the god of stories version included as a key.

 

[SageM]

Unless you want me to quote I cant post scans

The white hot room is said to be the exact opposing force to the abyss. Also beyonder said in or out of the hot room he is inferior to the phoenix.

Same issue.

I meant GOS loki scales superior to Glorian and has used his powers to affect the beyonder. Affecting beings on his level of existence in this wiki shoulf make him scale.

Alright would try that.

Actually this is a misinterpretation.

The entire point of defenders beyond aside loki's search for free will is the concept of mystery and how it applies to the marvel cosmology.
The defenders keeps journeying to unending layers of reality and it never ends. Just like the never queen told them, that even when they get to the "final door" which is the house of ideas the mystery still exist beyond it.

In this run we get to learn that the very crown of creation is the house of ideas and I believe it is the true form of the house when looking at it from a full perception. The house was called the crown of creation and that was what toaa showed the defenders, as their mission was to see that which exists outside creation and outside it is just endless mystery, basically the unknown.

Toaa showed them the crown and a glimpse of the enigma (which is a synonym for mystery) to come. Ewing is trying to tell a story that the greatest threat to Eternity is the unknown basically hinting that there are possibilities that will be coming for Eternity, Enigma was just a word used to represent it. That said, toaa never viewed it as a threat, as it was only described as a threat to Eternity and not the almighty.

Actually the Enigma is something else. As Loki saw a glimpse of it while traveling the multiverse with Verity. He considered it a worse threat than the Black Winter, which compared to the Enigma is nothing more than an angry baby. And considering Loki was present when The Black Winter attacked, that's saying something.

The enigma is something that always existed in the outside/The Mystery, or perhaps some place further removed from it. The Beyonders thought they could isolate the cosmos from it, but they failed. So whatever it is, it has power that even the Beyonders tech can't influence.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

So, we are giving Loki a God of Stories key right?
If so what tier?

tier would probably be the same physically just with smurf plot hax

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I always think why argue marvel over dc and vice versa when you can just enjoy both.

Marvel = DC (no one is better than the other, they are both good/equal)

 

[Fitz_100]

Actually the Enigma is something else. As Loki saw a glimpse of it while traveling the multiverse with Verity. He considered it a worse threat than the Black Winter, which compared to the Enigma is nothing more than an angry baby. And considering Loki was present when The Black Winter attacked, that's saying something.

Unless Marvel is trying to make the realm or idea of mystery into an actual villanous being i believe the enigma is nothing but a "possible threat" the defenders sent to defeat it couldnt even find it , toaa tried showing it to them but they only saw the crown of creation as a glimpse of it. We basically dont know what it is. Just that it means the Mystery.

The enigma is something that always existed in the outside/The Mystery, or perhaps some place further removed from it. The Beyonders thought they could isolate the cosmos from it, but they failed. So whatever it is, it has power that even the Beyonders tech can't influence.

Wherever the enigma exists it isnt beyond the mystery. Nothing can be and that the idea of the mystery. Think it's just Random Enigma means mystery?
The beyonder tech and themselves are useless against Phoenix for sure, i'lld still say this Enigma concept of a villain is basically meant to be unknown until it eventually becomes something.

Assuming it is greater than toaa when it has only been compared to Eternity is a massive canon. Loki likening it to Winter only proves it is but another end to a multiversal cycle, powerful but nothing beyond or even close to toaa.

 

[Fitz_100]

Imgur, Gfycat, or some other reliable upload site should work fine.

We were told of something called The Great Enigma that would have a crown over everything, but that remains to be seen.

There! Adam telling toaa that the house is only the beginning of the journey, of what he represents.

 

[Vasco]

I'm still reading the silver surfer and it seems Uni-Lord operates through avatars/manifestations since his the universe(stated like 5 or 6 times), his 3-A since his stated to be the universe(since he needs a corrupted watcher to tell him what he sees in the universe..i doubt he merged with all of the universe and the universe's time) but I haven't reached where both he and Silver surfer fights. It was shown he fought an avatar like in the future or possible future so Kulf_Boba wasn't wrong but still that's a manifestation. I might be done by today or tomorrow.

Done in a week, decided to hurry on it due to school stress before I go back from my weekend break. Anyways, Uni-Lord is stated to be the universe, and can alter his form or transform into manifestations to meet the dark counsel, With a mere thought his powerful enough to devour galaxies. Why I believe Uni-Lord isn't fully the universe is cause the narration kept saying Uni-Lord is on the other side of the known universe but its stated multiple time of him being the universe both by himself and other characters. The narration does say his on the other side of the known universe or across the universe. The young watcher vartu saw a glimpse of a battle between silver surfer and the Uni-Lord during his travels while crossing the Breach, And it's stated by the watcher the Uni-Lord is in pain and in his most Vulnerable...and weaker than he ever was. Let's move to the battle between Silver surfer and the Uni-Lord, It's shown the Uni-Lord is easily more powerful than the Silver Surfer. The surfer found a flaw and defeated the Uni-Lord, Then the Uni-Lord reformed, Easily overpowered the surfer Then the surfer had to Summon his board and began to absorb the powers/souls of the Uni-lord via the Power of the Blackbody merged with his own, and since when Uni-Lord had took the board into its being(since the beginning of the battle) the board had already been heavily draining his powers according to the surfer which later made them equal. And the Silver surfer finally defeated the Uni-Lord which took out several planets also.

From everything I doubt Silver Surfer scales to the Uni-Lord at all, though Silver Surfer became the Uni-Lord for a few pages before he reverted back to normal anyways. That's all and Thank you.

 

[Vasco]

Well, it was a long storyline between Silver Surfer issues 111 and 121, if I have understood correctly. Is somebody willing to investigate please?

I can check it but it would take me 3 to 4 days since i'm busy with school and stuff, I hope i can check all before then. All I just need to do is check if Silver Surfer scales to him right?

Yes, you or somebody else here who is reasonably good at critical evaluation.

Done in a week, decided to hurry on it due to school stress before I go back from my weekend break. Anyways, Uni-Lord is stated to be the universe, and can alter his form or transform into manifestations to meet the dark counsel, With a mere thought his powerful enough to devour galaxies. Why I believe Uni-Lord isn't fully the universe is cause the narration kept saying Uni-Lord is on the other side of the known universe but its stated multiple time of him being the universe both by himself and other characters. The narration does say his on the other side of the known universe or across the universe. The young watcher vartu saw a glimpse of a battle between silver surfer and the Uni-Lord during his travels while crossing the Breach, And it's stated by the watcher the Uni-Lord is in pain and in his most Vulnerable...and weaker than he ever was. Let's move to the battle between Silver surfer and the Uni-Lord, It's shown the Uni-Lord is easily more powerful than the Silver Surfer. The surfer found a flaw and defeated the Uni-Lord, Then the Uni-Lord reformed, Easily overpowered the surfer Then the surfer had to Summon his board and began to absorb the powers/souls of the Uni-lord via the Power of the Blackbody merged with his own, and since when Uni-Lord had took the board into its being(since the beginning of the battle) the board had already been heavily draining his powers according to the surfer which later made them equal. And the Silver surfer finally defeated the Uni-Lord which took out several planets also.

From everything I doubt Silver Surfer scales to the Uni-Lord at all, though Silver Surfer became the Uni-Lord for a few pages before he reverted back to normal anyways. That's all and Thank you.

So what do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

There! Adam telling toaa that the house is only the beginning of the journey, of what he represents.

Okay, but it was also stated that the OAA has creators (the Marvel writers) and that it is unknown (by Al Ewing and the Blue Marvel) if there is a final guiding hand above our reality.

As such, I think that it simply means that the OAA themself only reaches as high as The House of Mystery (control over Marvel Comics), but that what he represents (human creativity) can reach much farther than that.

 

[Antvasima]

Done in a week, decided to hurry on it due to school stress before I go back from my weekend break. Anyways, Uni-Lord is stated to be the universe, and can alter his form or transform into manifestations to meet the dark counsel, With a mere thought his powerful enough to devour galaxies. Why I believe Uni-Lord isn't fully the universe is cause the narration kept saying Uni-Lord is on the other side of the known universe but its stated multiple time of him being the universe both by himself and other characters. The narration does say his on the other side of the known universe or across the universe. The young watcher vartu saw a glimpse of a battle between silver surfer and the Uni-Lord during his travels while crossing the Breach, And it's stated by the watcher the Uni-Lord is in pain and in his most Vulnerable...and weaker than he ever was. Let's move to the battle between Silver surfer and the Uni-Lord, It's shown the Uni-Lord is easily more powerful than the Silver Surfer. The surfer found a flaw and defeated the Uni-Lord, Then the Uni-Lord reformed, Easily overpowered the surfer Then the surfer had to Summon his board and began to absorb the powers/souls of the Uni-lord via the Power of the Blackbody merged with his own, and since when Uni-Lord had took the board into its being(since the beginning of the battle) the board had already been heavily draining his powers according to the surfer which later made them equal. And the Silver surfer finally defeated the Uni-Lord which took out several planets also.

From everything I doubt Silver Surfer scales to the Uni-Lord at all, though Silver Surfer became the Uni-Lord for a few pages before he reverted back to normal anyways. That's all and Thank you.

Hmm. We probably need to remove the Silver Surfer's scaling to the Uni-Lord from his VSBW profile page then.

You should preferably explain all of your reasoning in the following thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-thor-shaking-the-realms-of-the-world-tree.142674/

 

[Vasco]

Okay, but it was also stated that the OAA has creators (the Marvel writers) and that it is unknown (by Al Ewing and the Blue Marvel) if there is a final guiding hand above our reality.

As such, I think that it simply means that the OAA themself only reaches as high as The House of Mystery (control over Marvel Comics), but that what he represents (human creativity) can reach much farther than that.

It's stated OAA has creators? I thought his normally called the author/creator to all that is. Seems that origin is changed.

 

[Antvasima]

The Blue Marvel explicitly referred to them here, and, given that Marvel Comics recurrently enters metafiction territory, this seems to refer to the many writers for the company.

 

[Vasco]

You should preferably explain all of your reasoning in the following thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-thor-shaking-the-realms-of-the-world-tree.142674/

This thread seems to be about tier 2 Thor and it's already 13 pages (reason why i refused to engage in it,lmao) , do you want me to give my input in the thread? I can if you want.

 

[Gasper]

I just wanted to bring up that enigma was also mentioned in
Thor (Vol 6) #24
(April, 2022) by donny cates

 

[Antvasima]

This thread seems to be about tier 2 Thor and it's already 13 pages (reason why i refused to engage in it,lmao) , do you want me to give my input in the thread? I can if you want.

It turned into a revision thread for all of Marvel Comics' 5-B, 3-C, and 2-C characters, but, given its length, it would be appreciated if some knowledgeable member creates a continuation thread in which all of the revisions regarding that topic that we currently need to discuss and apply are explained in the first post.

 

[Antvasima]

I just wanted to bring up that enigma was also mentioned in
Thor (Vol 6) #24
(April, 2022) by donny cates

Hmm. Can you link to the scan in question please?

 

[Gasper]

Also beyonders also refer to him (enigma) as "nonlinear threat".which maybe confirms beyonders are limited by linear time.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I think that it was stated outright that they are linear beings in the latest Defenders story as well.

 

[Gasper]

Hmm. Can you link to the scan in question please?

I think it's more so referring to "enigma force". Which could potentially be connected but not sure though.

 

[Gasper]

Yes, I think that it was stated outright that they are linear beings in the latest Defenders story as well.

I know, but on their profiles it's ignored because it dosen't make sense. They killed living tribunal who was stated to transend time and space.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel Comics usually does not make coherent sense at all since Joe Quesada and later Sana Amanat began to systematically corrupt and destabilise it. However, it has been a major plot point that Beyonders cannot time travel under their own power.

 

[Gasper]

Well, Marvel Comics usually does not make coherent sense at all since Joe Quesada and later Sana Amanat began to systematically corrupt and destabilise it. However, it has been a major plot point that Beyonders cannot time travel under their own power.

Yeah, exactly. Idk why is everyone pretending that they are not linear beings. It's outright stated and shown to us they are bound by time. I think beyonders really limit marvel cosmic side because of that.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you suggest as a solution for our other cosmic character pages then?

 

[Gasper]

So what do you suggest as a solution for our other cosmic character pages then?

I suggest we find statements for each of the cosmic characters that where at some point stated to "transend time and space" or being beyond time or something like that, And probably not scale "if character A is stated to be beyond time and space and character B killed/defeated him that makes character B beyond time as well"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so all immeasurable speed statistics should be removed then?

 

[Gasper]

Okay, so all immeasurable speed statistics should be removed then?

I think for cosmic characters that aren't stated to be beyond time and space or had shown any immeasurable speed feats should be changed to "unknown" speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that seems reasonable.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I think for cosmic characters that aren't stated to be beyond time and space or had shown any immeasurable speed feats should be changed to "unknown" speed.

I think that should be alright

 

[Vasco]

I think for cosmic characters that aren't stated to be beyond time and space or had shown any immeasurable speed feats should be changed to "unknown" speed.

What if such characters have calculable feats?

 

[Antvasima]

Also beyonders also refer to him (enigma) as "nonlinear threat".which maybe confirms beyonders are limited by linear time.

Yes, I think that it was stated outright that they are linear beings in the latest Defenders story as well.

I know, but on their profiles it's ignored because it dosen't make sense. They killed living tribunal who was stated to transend time and space.

Well, Marvel Comics usually does not make coherent sense at all since Joe Quesada and later Sana Amanat began to systematically corrupt and destabilise it. However, it has been a major plot point that Beyonders cannot time travel under their own power.

Yeah, exactly. Idk why is everyone pretending that they are not linear beings. It's outright stated and shown to us they are bound by time. I think beyonders really limit marvel cosmic side because of that.

So what do you suggest as a solution for our other cosmic character pages then?

I suggest we find statements for each of the cosmic characters that where at some point stated to "transend time and space" or being beyond time or something like that, And probably not scale "if character A is stated to be beyond time and space and character B killed/defeated him that makes character B beyond time as well"

Okay, so all immeasurable speed statistics should be removed then?

I think for cosmic characters that aren't stated to be beyond time and space or had shown any immeasurable speed feats should be changed to "unknown" speed.

Okay. I think that seems reasonable.

What do the rest of you think?

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Gasper]

What if such characters have calculable feats?

I mean, they should at least scale above the herald level characters who have mftl+ speed. So there are two ways we can scale cosmic entities, give them "unknown" rating or give them "at least mftl+, possibly higher (scaling above herald level characters)".