• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Antvasima said:
Some really important and interesting events just happened in the "Defenders Beyond" miniseries.
Click to expand...
Based on the images that are shown regarding the "Enigma", and the various Kabbalah symbolism used in regards to The One-Above-All and the House of Ideas, my belief is that the Enigma is a representation of the AIn Sof Ohr.

Since the House of Ideas and One Above All are both represented as Keter/Kether in Kabbalah, then the only thing that could be higher up the chain would be the Ain Sof Ohr. Since its both physically and metaphysically unreachable, it would make a sort of sense to be the only possible force that could be beyond the Mystery and TOAA. It will be interesting to see the developments regarding this revelation.

Also Loki's attempt to gain true freedom from the Grand Design set in place by the TOAA seems to been borrowed heavily from DC/Vertigo Comics Lucifer, who tried doing the exact same thing when he left reality and entered the Overvoid to free himself from the Presence's multiverse. I guess Al Elwing is a fan of Lucifer.
 
Well, I think that he was seeing the setting from an author perspective while he was away in The House of Ideas, and then realised that he had been systematically changed and belittled and mentally mutilated for decades by the powers that be, which culminated in him tearing apart the narrative that was forming around him and break free to try to be himself again, after he reacted to Loki's similar situation, but opposite decision.
 
Last edited:
Antvasima said:
Well, I think that he was seeing the setting from an author perspective while he was away in The House of Ideas, and then realised that he had been systematically changed and belittled and mentally mutilated for decades by the powers that be, which culminated in him tearing apart the narrative that was forming around him and break free to try to be himself again, after he reacted to Loki's similar situation, but opposite decision.
Click to expand...
This is true but let's see further in other books cause all my friends are in disagreement as it didn't seem he unretonned himself, Anyways I'd read all this books when i've got time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, we have to wait and see, but that is the way that I perceived the issue at least.
 
Yes, I don't know if that is what Al Ewing has in mind, or if he will even get the chance to write how it turns out.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I think that he was seeing the setting from an author perspective while he was away in The House of Ideas, and then realised that he had been systematically changed and belittled and mentally mutilated for decades by the powers that be, which culminated in him tearing apart the narrative that was forming around him and break free to try to be himself again, after he reacted to Loki's similar situation, but opposite decision.
Click to expand...
He simply doesnt want to be restricted and just tore out the pages.
 
SageM said:
Based on the images that are shown regarding the "Enigma", and the various Kabbalah symbolism used in regards to The One-Above-All and the House of Ideas, my belief is that the Enigma is a representation of the AIn Sof Ohr.
Click to expand...
Am not sure ewing is planning on going that deep.
SageM said:
Since the House of Ideas and One Above All are both represented as Keter/Kether in Kabbalah, then the only thing that could be higher up the chain would be the Ain Sof Ohr. Since its both physically and metaphysically unreachable, it would make a sort of sense to be the only possible force that could be beyond the Mystery and TOAA. It will be interesting to see the developments regarding this revelation
Click to expand...

This isnt what was revealed though. Nothing so far is beyond toaa. Adam did say the house is just the beginning of what toaa represents and beyond the crown of creation is the mystery (Enigma) and that isnt a limit to the idea of the one above all at all. It is only even treated as a threat to Eternity and not toaa.
SageM said:
.

Also Loki's attempt to gain true freedom from the Grand Design set in place by the TOAA seems to been borrowed heavily from DC/Vertigo Comics Lucifer, who tried doing the exact same thing when he left reality and entered the Overvoid to free himself from the Presence's multiverse. I guess Al Elwing is a fan of Lucifer.
Click to expand...
Yeah this is very true.
 
Antvasima said:
Speaking of "Defenders: Beyond", the following issues very likely need to be dealt with quite quickly. Is somebody here willing to handle it please?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Antvasima?threadId=4400000000003472668

"The true identity of the Never Queen and origin of the Beyonders

The latest defenders comic in marvel reveals some revelations regarding not only the Beyonders, but also the true identity and origin of the Never Queen/Queen of Nevers. Which means that both pages should be updated with the new up to date information.

The Never Queen is not simply the paramour of eternity and the embodiment of possibilities like we were originally led to believe, she is in fact the personification of the Fourth Cosmos. Better known as "The Pilgrim", who was the only member of the Ultimate Ultimates that wasn't present during the final confrontation with the First Firmament. Since she is a former version of the Marvel Universe, she would have the same statistics and key as Eternity and the FF.

As for the Beyonders, they are shown to have be another one of the creations of the Celestials. After the birth of the First Iteration of the multiverse (Second Cosmos) an unobservable space outside the universe was formed after the break up of the FF. This space contained raw chaotic energies that the celestial didn't they could fully managed and might lead to the same set of events that destroyed the First Firmament. So they created a race of entities that could safely handle the infinite power of this space called the Omega's. The Omega's resided in the unobservable space until they were trapped in it after the end of the Second Cosmos and the birth of the Third. Over the eons that followed, they evolved into the beings we know today as The Beyonders and the space they resided in became known simply as "Beyond".

All these events and revelations are shown and properly explained in Defenders: Beyond. Both articles should contain the new information, though since both pages are currently locked i can't add the data."
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Also, going by the final "Defenders: Beyond" comic book, it seems like The One Above All is not longer an author avatar, but rather "just" Marvel Comics' in-universe supreme being and driving creative force, given that it referred to the author of the comic book in question as separate from itself.

I strongly recommend that all knowledgeable Marvel Comics supporter in this forum read all 10 of Al Ewing's Defenders comic books, and try to rationally evaluate them as well as they are able, so we can reevaluate the information in our profile pages based on them.
Click to expand...
Anyway, we really need to fix this.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Are any of youwilling to help out with it?
 
Well, the current version is at least equal to other members of The Beyonders, so I think so, yes.
 
A new key seems far more appropriate, given that his cosmic cube power levels were far lower.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the current version is at least equal to other members of The Beyonders, so I think so, yes.
Click to expand...
Cause of he realising himself and all that right? But has he Shown feat or being powerful to that level of other beyonders despite him realising himself?
Gasper said:
Will this new beyonder be seen as a new key or will he be merged with pre-retcon beyonder profile?
Click to expand...
No reason to merge them.
 
There is no reason to think that he isn't a fully grown Beyonder now.
 
I need to ask, why is the Stranger 2-C when his justifications are basic 2-A/Low 1-C scaling?
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Stranger

The Stranger is a powerful cosmic entity who has claimed to have several different origins over the years, although The Living Tribunal once strongly suggested that The Stranger was originally an aspect of itself that somehow gained independence. Tier: High 1-B Name: The Stranger Origin: Marvel...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer said:
I need to ask, why is the Stranger 2-C when his justifications are basic 2-A/Low 1-C scaling?
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Stranger

The Stranger is a powerful cosmic entity who has claimed to have several different origins over the years, although The Living Tribunal once strongly suggested that The Stranger was originally an aspect of itself that somehow gained independence. Tier: High 1-B Name: The Stranger Origin: Marvel...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Yes, Marvel Abstracts are usually rated 2-A or higher and Uatu, as well as a well-fed Galactus, Odin, Zeus, and the Celestials are 2-A.
 
One question: is galactus being stated he transends dimensions considered an outlier? Or just too vague?
Dude also gets beaten by 3-D beings, so idk.
 
Gasper said:
One question: is galactus being stated he transends dimensions considered an outlier? Or just too vague?
Dude also gets beaten by 3-D beings, so idk.
Click to expand...
I think that happened after he became the Lifebringer. So I don't believe its an outlier but rather something he hadn't demonstrated until now.

As he had no valid reason to do so (since he exists in the physical universe to consume planets). So transcending dimensions wasn't something that was required of him except in circumstances where he had to converse with the other Abstracts.
 
SageM said:
I think that happened after he became the Lifebringer. So I don't believe its an outlier but rather something he hadn't demonstrated until now.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't he then have different key for that? He also never demonstrated anything on that level as far as am aware.
 
All beyonders scale at least equal in power amd each of them are singly layers into Outerversal.

This should go on to tell just how powerful Owen Reece is.

Also Never Queen scales even to Eternity and should be superior to Beyonders. As we saw the beyonders are mere fractions of the second cosmos. Also the beyonder couldnt leave abyss until Never Queen had to help them.
Another point they used only their machine which draws power from the phoenix to be superior to Eternity, without which they are considered inferior to multiversal embodiments.

GOS Loki scales to the likes of Beyonder.

Toaa possibly transcends the house because Adam stated the house was only the beginning of what he represents. And toaa could show them what exist even outside the crown of creation far deep into the mystery.

Finally, The mystery should be considered as the only idea in marvel that transcends even toaa, considering the crown is just one place in the endless mystery, Never Queen called it a truly infinite place and toaa even said it intrigues him as Mystery seems to be a concept of things unknown.
 
MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer said:
I need to ask, why is the Stranger 2-C when his justifications are basic 2-A/Low 1-C scaling?
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Stranger

The Stranger is a powerful cosmic entity who has claimed to have several different origins over the years, although The Living Tribunal once strongly suggested that The Stranger was originally an aspect of itself that somehow gained independence. Tier: High 1-B Name: The Stranger Origin: Marvel...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
His statistics should probably be updated to match those of a Watcher.
 
SageM said:
I think that happened after he became the Lifebringer. So I don't believe its an outlier but rather something he hadn't demonstrated until now.

As he had no valid reason to do so (since he exists in the physical universe to consume planets). So transcending dimensions wasn't something that was required of him except in circumstances where he had to converse with the other Abstracts.
Click to expand...
Can somebody find and show the scan in question please? If it was from "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars", that is not a part of continuity. Also, "transcending dimensions" usually simply means being beyond some local space-time continuum, not being infinite degrees into infinity or more.
 
Fitz_100 said:
Adam proved it if we consider his statement valuable. He said the house is just the starting to what toaa represents.
Click to expand...
Can you cite the exactly worded quote please?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Excellence616
  • Locked
Marvel Comics: Combat Speed Upgrade For Some Characters
2
Replies
43
Views
4K
Excellence616
Excellence616
LordTracer
DCU General Discussion Thread
6 7 8
Replies
280
Views
20K
Lacku
Lacku
MarkGoldbridge
The Walking Dead Discussion Thread
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
Renitr
Renitr
Suigetsuhyugs
  • Locked
[Marvel Comics] Some Upgrades and stuff...
2
Replies
62
Views
3K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Deceived3596
The Evil Within Discussion Thread
Replies
2
Views
350
Deceived3596
Deceived3596
Back
Top