The Pony of Shadows vs Lord Tirek

[MinatoSparkle]

It's highly probable for it to be PIS, and here's why. The entire schtick and gimmick for Season 4 was "What's in the box?". That concept was spread as a full season arc and pushed heavily by the writers and the MLP marketing team. In the finale, that entire arc needed to be fully wrapped up within the 15-ish minutes they had left procedding the fight. In that timeframe, they needed to let Twilight get her key, open the box, defeat Tirek and wrap up the season all in that small period of time. If it weren't for that entire theme, I'm pretty sure the writers would have handled the "trade" situation much better, which is why they never explicitly said Tirek needed to have his victim be willing or caught off guard to drain magic, which is exactly what he did to Chrysalis in Season 9

There's still no proof that he can absorb magic from those stronger than him. There are so many thing that wouldn't make sense if he couldn't absorb magic from stronger beings. Especially not draining Grogar's magic. Also, I think it's possible that Tirek is stronger than Chrysalis, so that's not evidence at all.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The most prominent example of a character displaying different AP and durability is the interaction between the Roc and Spike in "Molt Down". The Roc tanked multiple blasts from an Alicorn Twilight and was unscatched, if we go by your logic in scaling that would make the Roc's AP and Durability equal or greater than Alicorn level. Spike then comes along uses his fire and actually physically harms the Roc, charring it's feathers. That would mean that Spike's AP is near Alicorn level via scaling, and would also mean that his durability is also similar which is absolute crazy because Spike has clearly been harmed by town level threats

Well, I don't know. We know very little of Rocs. Considering it was Chrysalis' first choice for powerful flight, who has countless options, it seems impressive. Well, I would say it's PIS to make new Spike seem cool, but if it's not, then the Roc's durability at least is Alicorn Level, and Spike's AP is definitely Alicorn level. Also, the implication is that Spike became stronger when he molted, so his Town Level feats can't be used to scale for post-molt down Spike. But again, I think that whole scene was just PIS, considering even full grown dragons are not even close to 4-C. Maybe Torch is, but none others are, especially considering the showings for huge dragons in Season 1.

 

[Pikachu942]

The Roc scene is certainly PiS, and all signs point to Tirek needing to be close to the other's level or for it to be consenting for him to drain energy. Otherwise, there's no reason why he had to convince Chrysalis or Twilight in those scenarios, plus why he had to go around sucking the magic from most of Equestria before taking the princesses or Discord.

 

[FinePoint]

POS fra Let's wrap this up

 

[ThatDude343]

The first time see Tirek draining Chrysalis' magic he never asked for permission. He casually did it. There's no reason for us to believe that he was stronger than Chrysalis in that current state, seeing as she did most of the heavy lifting during the Trek to the top of the mountain and had multiple moments where Tirek was at the mercy of her Telekinesis, despite having a very small fraction of Grogar's power

 

[MinatoSparkle]

POS fra Let's wrap this up

Wrap this up? The PoS only has 6 votes if I counted correctly.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The first time see Tirek draining Chrysalis' magic he never asked for permission. He casually did it. There's no reason for us to believe that he was stronger than Chrysalis in that current state, seeing as she did most of the heavy lifting during the Trek to the top of the mountain and had multiple moments where Tirek was at the mercy of her Telekinesis, despite having a very small fraction of Grogar's power

She did most of the heavy lifting because of her unique ability. Also, you can be grabbed by telekinesis even if you're stronger/comparable. And it's true that he only had a small fraction of Grogar's power, but he was still in second form, which is likely 4-C.

 

[ThatDude343]

The first time see Tirek draining Chrysalis' magic he never asked for permission. He casually did it. There's no reason for us to believe that he was stronger than Chrysalis in that current state, seeing as she did most of the heavy lifting during the Trek to the top of the mountain and had multiple moments where Tirek was at the mercy of her Telekinesis, despite having a very small fraction of Grogar's power

She did most of the heavy lifting because of her unique ability. Also, you can be grabbed by telekinesis even if you're stronger/comparable. And it's true that he only had a small fraction of Grogar's power, but he was still in second form, which is likely 4-C.

Unicorn Twilight showed us in Season 1 that there is a certain level of physical ability needed to use telekinesis on stronger opponents. She was barely/struggled to be able to lift the Ursa Minor after it stopped resisting. There was clearly some stress present. If Chrysalis is able to effortlessly do it to Tirek despite resistance, that's a good indicator that at their current forms they aren't equals.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Um,she struggled because it was a huge bear that probably weighed many tons. Telekinesis effort depends on weight.

 

[ThatDude343]

Weight and Mass = Power. There's no differentiation. The more powerful you are, effects what you can and cannot lift. Discord individually is more powerful than Celestia and Luna which is why he is able to move both the sun and moon with his magic.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It takes power to lift weight and mass, but it doesn't take weight and mass to have power. Is a blue whale stronger than a nuclear bomb because it's heavier? No. Celestia also moved both the sun and moon for 1000 years, so I don't know what you're trying to prove with that statement. Tirek is only probably a few hundred pounds at most, and that's why Chrysalis was able to use telekinesis on him, not because her power is greater than his. This is just basic logic.

 

[ThatDude343]

You missed the point. The idea was that there was visible evidence that there was a physical strain from Twilight to lift the Ursa Minor. You implied that telekinesis could be used on stronger opponents regardless of any other external factors which is not true.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

There was physical strain on Twilight because it was a huge freakin' bear. And telekinesis can be used on stronger opponents regardless of any external factors. Maybe they can break free if they're stronger, but it doesn't mean they can't be lifted by weaker opponents. Tirek clearly didn't try to break free, so him being lifted doesn't mean anything.

 

[ThatDude343]

You're basically saying that regardless of individual strength, physical strain will only be shown through telekinesis via weight. Which again, is false.


In Magic Duel, Twilight shows strain to stop a wagon. Clearly a wagon isn't heavier than an Ursa Minor and we've seen Twilight effortlessly levitate much heavier objects. This is irrefutable proof that there are external factors to telekinesis other than the weight of the target. To add on, this is the same episode where minutes prior, it calls back to the same Ursa Minor feat that she pulled off.


And what do you mean Tirek never tried to break free? He took multiple steps and flailed his arms back before he fell over. That's resistance.

 

[Pikachu942]

I feel like you're trying to go against something that's been proven not only with multiple examples, but also multiple story beats in several episodes, with a singular example that very much could just be an outlier.

 

[ThatDude343]

This is all deriving from the absurd claim of how Tirek "wouldn't" be able to absorb PoS's magic. Something that hasn't been proven like this makes the playing field more blurred.


I can understand Tirek at his weakest form not being able to storm up to the Princesses and Discord and draining their magic, but not because he would be unable to do it, but because he wouldn't get far being in the presence of multiple characters more powerful then him. I'm also surprised that you haven't considered the interaction between him and Twilight an outlier seeing as that's generally the basis for the assumption for him not being able to absorb characters of equal strength directly.

Speaking of PIS, I would say it's not the Roc example that is lacking information, but rather the power system in general. The magic system has barely any established rules and therefore we can use other examples to fill in the gaps.

 

[Pikachu942]

It wouldn't be an outlier, because it falls in line well with the other scenarios, such as him not going for the Princesses or Discord until he was stronger, or needing to trick crowds of ponies in order to get it with the help of Discord at first, before when he's stronger able to just stop a hoard and take it with ease. Another example would be during the fight with Twilight when he has her in his grasps at multiple times, but doesn't suck out the energy.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You're basically saying that regardless of individual strength, physical strain will only be shown through telekinesis via weight. Which again, is false.

In Magic Duel, Twilight shows strain to stop a wagon. Clearly a wagon isn't heavier than an Ursa Minor and we've seen Twilight effortlessly levitate much heavier objects. This is irrefutable proof that there are external factors to telekinesis other than the weight of the target. To add on, this is the same episode where minutes prior, it calls back to the same Ursa Minor feat that she pulled off.


And what do you mean Tirek never tried to break free? He took multiple steps and flailed his arms back before he fell over. That's resistance.

But what external factors would there be with a wagon? It doesn't have power on its own, and Trixie wasn't currently using her magic on it, so it's clearly just an outlier.

Multiple steps and flailed his arms? What are you talking about? The 3 times in the song that Tirek was held in telekinsis, he just looked surprise. There was never strain on his face as if he couldn't break free. And even if he couldn't, Twilight couldn't get out of Tirek's grip, which means maybe comparable opponents can hold each other.

 

[ThatDude343]

It wouldn't be an outlier, because it falls in line well with the other scenarios, such as him not going for the Princesses or Discord until he was stronger, or needing to trick crowds of ponies in order to get it with the help of Discord at first, before when he's stronger able to just stop a hoard and take it with ease. Another example would be during the fight with Twilight when he has her in his grasps at multiple times, but doesn't suck out the energy.

That can easily be explained by him not getting far whilst he's absorbing the magic. He can't fight and absorb magic at the same time and he would need to deal with the onslaught of Royal Guard at these vital moments. Also, his first interaction with Discord was literally him at his weakest. The difference in power between PoS and Tirek is not that garguantuan.

 

[ThatDude343]

You're basically saying that regardless of individual strength, physical strain will only be shown through telekinesis via weight. Which again, is false.

In Magic Duel, Twilight shows strain to stop a wagon. Clearly a wagon isn't heavier than an Ursa Minor and we've seen Twilight effortlessly levitate much heavier objects. This is irrefutable proof that there are external factors to telekinesis other than the weight of the target. To add on, this is the same episode where minutes prior, it calls back to the same Ursa Minor feat that she pulled off.


And what do you mean Tirek never tried to break free? He took multiple steps and flailed his arms back before he fell over. That's resistance.

But what external factors would there be with a wagon? It doesn't have power on its own, and Trixie wasn't currently using her magic on it, so it's clearly just an outlier.
Multiple steps and flailed his arms? What are you talking about? The 3 times in the song that Tirek was held in telekinsis, he just looked surprise. There was never strain on his face as if he couldn't break free. And even if he couldn't, Twilight couldn't get out of Tirek's grip, which means maybe comparable opponents can hold each other.

External factors like gravity? Twilight stopping the wagon during momentum? It can't be an outlier.


He flailed his arms and took a couple of steps during the time in the song where they piled on one another.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

There's always gravity. And momentum isn't a big enough difference to make her struggle as much with that as she did with a building sized bear. And why can't it be an outlier?

He didn't take any steps. He just flailed his arms very briefly. And he still wasn't struggling. He was just surprised. That's why he flailed his arms.

 

[ThatDude343]

Gravity applies, but most telekinesis in the show is applied on an already static object. This one was in the process of falling already. It can't be an outlier because there is nothing to be disproven about the physical strain. There was an assumption made that she strained because the bear was heavy, despite the fact that it hasn't been the only time Twilight has lifted a building+ level mass and seen no fatigue (notable example being in Mare Do Well when she levitates dozens, potentially hundreds of pony sized boulders to fix the dam)


Although it was a couple of frames, it clearly was a stepping motion. Chrysalis didn't lift his hoof up, she just forced him to the ground.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Just because something's not disproven doesn't mean it's an outlier. Roshi's moon busting isn't disproven as not being viable yet it isnt used. Also, that was a lot of small things, so it's not as much as a huge freakin' bear. Plus, that was in Season 2, while the bear lifting was early in season 1, so she got stronger.

The point is he didn't really try to break free.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump.

 

[Jackxagon]

Pony of shadows, for the durability feats and reasons above.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Tirek: 1

The Pony of Shadows: 7

Inconclusive: 1

Grace.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Grace is over. I'll add it.