The Merge (Crisis & Vertigo Cosmology?????)

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hello, people of the Wiki. In this CRT we are working with the mechanics behind DC Comics. As you know with this verse we've separated the larger holistic cosmology based on the specific writers working within different frameworks of canons such as Crisis, Vertigo, and J.M. DeMatteis' Cosmology respectively.

As such the below is the DC Cosmology as we've accepted it now:

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now this thread is intended to connect the dots between Crisis and Vertigo Cosmology which this thread will show pretty much are linked to each other. A few flaws will be here and there that's either niche or too small to matter about the canon at large. Now, the main points will be addressed one by one one starting with the section that separated them in the first place in which I will address as the main point to argue against for a connective canon.

PS: J.M. DeMatteis will remain the same because his personal view of the Cosmology is very incongruent with anything outside of his own…. well….personal view.

The Argumentation:​

This portion will address what is said about both canons being incongruent with each other.

• In Gaiman/Carey's stories, the Presence created the DC Universe and Michael Demiurgos' demiurgic power made the first matter and Lucifer Morningstar's will shaped it into all suns while in Snyder's stories, Perpetua made the DC Multiverse from the energies provided by the Source and Alpheus created every universe within it.

This is the least pressing issue in diving the canons. The explanation is rather simple to get this point out of the way.

It was explained in an interview with the writer of the Metal series, Scott Snyder, that there was a time of period during Perpetua’s Universe and the main Multiverse as we see now. This was evident during many guidebooks and stories about Perpetua’s Multiverse being there before it was undone by the Presence.

So where does Michael and Lucifer come into this?​

Well, we know that the Presence acts through emanations and avatars when in Creation. We know that the Presence has made many Creations before he made Michael and Lucifer do it, so there was a time when Creations existed prior to the Archangels, which Dream had said they existed from infinity from now which would in time be discarded by the Presence.

So, Lucifer and Michael made the Universe happen after Perpetua when the Presence decided to act directly.

As for this point:

Although quite similar, God's demiurgic power used to create the Cosmos in Gaiman/Carey stories seems to be replaced by Anti-Crisis Energy and Crisis Energy in Scott Snyder stories as the creative forces of the Cosmos and relates to memory and history.

The Presence handed Michael the Demiurgic power and Lucifer the Lightbringer power to help create the Universe, and the Presence is confirmed to be the Source. The Presece already manifested within the framework of Creation when he made his sons, so it’s not impossible to create powers that can make Creations when he is the source of powers to make Multiverses.

By, Yahweh’s own admission, he wanted something different from the previous Creation that kept following the same pattern and was not unique, so he made his sons specifically to do it with a different approach hence why he would make a set of powers that can help craft the Universe as above.

So the powers were unique to the sons of Yahweh because he gave them those powers as gifts. Perpetua was sent by the Source with different materials, but that doesn't contradict that both powers can create. You can make the energies born of the Source, but they can be exhausted. However, Lucifer and Michael powers can't diminish and they can use it at will, they're just forbidden not to use it after the world-making is done.

So what’s the distinction, if not made clear? Well…

• Crisis and Anti-Crisis Energy are natural born energies of the Presence, that he gives to his agents to craft those energies into Multiverses. You can make/use it by using what powers all things in the Universe; belief/stories. You can make Anti-Crisis energy by connecting the threads that hold all history as one important story and not undermining past and future. Crisis energies are fueled by selfishness to envelop one’s thoughts by making the present the single most important story and if not made obvious….crises empower this energy.
• The Demiurgic power is God’s own “personal” power. Sandalphon described Michael as having “perfect impersonal power.” The Lightbringer power gives Lucifer his namesake as the bringer of light and fire.

So, yeah, that shouldn't be hard to understand.

Now for the next part:

• In the Gaiman/Carey stories all gods were created from Dream of the Endless through the power of dreams and beliefs, while in the Snyder stories they were created from Hecate's Collective Unconscious.

Evidently, this is only half-true. Hecate’s Collective Unconscious didn't really create the gods. Humans did through belief which shapes the Universe, Magic, and the Sphere of the Gods. Hecate only gave touches of her power to give these gods powers to rule within their own pantheons. Dreams/belief/stories are all interchangeable terms. So this isn't really note-worthy and we know a certain Sandman comic shows the power of “belief.”

Last point:

• In Scott Snyder stories, there are infinite Multiverses in the Void beyond the main one, while in Gaiman/Carey's stories there were three Creations, those of the Presence, Lucifer and Elaine Belloc, which were later combined into one when Elaine replaced the Presence.

The first portion is true. The last is not. We see the Void as in the realm outside all Creation that contains uncountable amounts of Creations that keep rising and falling, since time is non-existent they all exist simultaneously, and yet that can't even fill the portion they occupy as volume isn't existent in the Void. So no matter how many creations exist, it can't even fill it since they look like tiny lights described as heartbeats (each heartbeat is a Creation) in the eternity of the Void.

Conclusion:​

In hindsight the reasoning isn't really that strong to separate the stories. It seems nitpicky about the information to use and well that's not how we should do things.

• I mean Scott Snyder consulted with Neil Gaiman on using the Dream of the Endless. Following that Daniel Hall is the current reincarnation of Dream.
• The Endless appears in main countunity and is mentioned several times. Same goes for the Angels and the Silver City (Shining City in JLA).
• The whole structure of dreams and beliefs are the same.
• There’s a space containing Multiversee outside the main Creation.
• Each reality has different creators.
• Multiple versions of the Multiverse have existed due to the many changes and kinks that crises event causes or reset by the Presence and/or beliefs.
• A new DC history book shows that they are indeed connected. Which states stories in both DC and Vertigo in order to know about the DCU as a whole being one.

The list goes on about how many similarities outweigh the very weak contrasts.

Tiering:​

All scans are in the blog, please check it out for reference. Also, I’ll briefly explain the tiering on each level. The short-hand summary below is within Creations.

• The material portion of the Universe will remain Low 1-A at its outermost edges compared to the very concept of space-time.
• The Dreaming is the bulk of both cosmologies. As they currently sit they both have the same tiers under the same reasoning; a hierarchy of dreams with dreams that extend through an infinity of stories. Check here and here for reference. So they remain 1-A+, and the Dreaming itself will be upgraded as High 1-A since Dream reincarnation is High 1-A as all stories and dreams in the hierarchy are part of dreamland and all lands/stories in the Dreaming are tiny facets of it, that it exists above, outside, and not connected to those dreams since its the only constant that stay even when stories are layered in there.
• The rest of the uncountable “all levels of Creation” will be layers of High 1-A. The emanationism mentioned throughout the Flash series adheres to these layers being beyond the previous.

Now, for the interesting part; High 1-A+, and this portion will go to beings outside the Multiversal hierarchy.

High 1-A+:​

As shown here we work this tier as a logical possibility whether encompassed as possible worlds shown as semantical tools based on the laws of logic. Since Type 2 is already covered, we will focus on beings that can actualize and/or affect these worlds.

So how would this work? Well each version of Creation is predicated on the belief of humanity challenging the very nature of Creation entirely in that the previous Creation never existed or is untrue. As such, the world of cat lords where cats reign supreme never existed since that logic was changed across all of time, beginning and end.

Is it nominal?

The “world” as it is or Creation isn't changed as a separate timeline branching off some sort of difference in what stays constant in reality. The difference is that the world as it is now is always been true and always been what it is as opposed to the different function it once was. As shown with the worlds of cats being deemed as untrue and non-existent. As such:

Necessarily true e.g. “All humans are the dominate species and they rule over lesser beings as such cats.”

Necessarily false e.g. “Cats can't be big and lord over lesser things because that logic no longer exist.” In both aspects that the rules of reality dictate that humans lord over them and the laws of physics can't let them grow that big.

This shows that was the power of dreams changes the entirety of Creation from its most fundamental level. It changes what makes the world specific and unique to itself, from cats being the center of the universe to humans being the center. Two different worlds and the only constant is the truest form of the Endless.

It was shown that of all “possible worlds,” one world can be more real than reality meaning it’s distinct everytime it changes. Whatever story is the strongest by belief will change the world from whatever it is. So yeah, very much logistics changing the nature of things to be either fundamentally true, false, contingent, or all three. So reality is logical in which it functions based on the foundation of logical sequence as such that a “cause” is followed by an effect as an example.

Scaling(High 1-A+ candidates):​

• The Source: The Source will be an obvious High 1-A+. Like when I did the Sea of Brahma profile, the avatar of Pralaya is High 1-A+ for being the direct expression of the unmanifest Void actualizing herself outside the framework (because High 1-A+ do not function in a hierarchy), and because she can also use her “body” at will as such birthing and destroying actuality aka Creation. The Source came from the Darkness and actualized as the Light being the ground and prime mover that makes all these Creations possible whether in their current or changed state as in the absolute Void (The Great Darkness, they're always changing).
• Jin En Moks: Creatures older than God as they arose from the very first Cosmos. They are voidless beings without “form and void” and are untethered (aspatial and atemporal) in their true state.
• The Demiurgic Archangels: These beings inherited the aspect of God’s power. Michael can casually forge about new Creations from absolute nothing, and Lucifer realm although similar in size to Yahweh’s is completely different. As it did not require the same things as such a removal of afterlives, making cause-and-effect as secondary instead of subjection that runs throughout Creation, and time itself working differently from the main Creation.
• Night, Time, and the Endless: Beings that permeates all versions of Creation and all its possible reiterations. The Endless “true from” are changeless, immutable, and pure concepts that project viewpoints that exist across all time and space in all versions of Creations. Night and Time exist outside all version of Creation and made them all possible in which they exist in moments in which Creation changes and dies.
• The First Circle: Beings that lay about the rules of the Universe. Seemingly binding all things including the Endless (Just their aspect) in which they set upon across versions of Creation since they planned all this in the Void before the Dawn of Time.
• The Presence (Yahweh) and Elaine Belloc: The former is one of the creators of Creation. Goes by many things; Lord of Hosts, God of the Covenant, and etc….the latter replacesd the former when he left his position open. Relative to each other.

The Void/The Great Darkness:​

These two profiles: The Void and The Great Darkness are both accepted as the second type for High 1-A+. Obviously, there can only be one “all possible worlds.” Well, they're the same thing as both are described to be infinite nothingness, and the very aspect of God, primarily his mind. So to avoid confusion we can delete the Void profile and merge it with the Great Darkness and put the information there since multiplicity can only exist by name for High 1-A+.

God: ​

The Unknowable and the Creator are just the same being. 0 cannot possess multiplicity, division, distinction, plurality, or individuality. So we merge the information.

In any case of the omnipotent page about the etymology behind a 0 being. We know that a 0 permeates all possible worlds as such different philosophers go about it. God or Monad universal substance as whether undifferentiated and unchanging or infinitely expanding and always brings about is the reason why it sees the rest as just illusory and just thoughts it conjures up in which it is the ground for all their beings.

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @Zensum @Elizhaa @Armorchompy @Sandman31

What do you think about this?

 

[Osemere]

I’m fine with this because ever since Gaiman and Carey stepped away from their works (which probably will remain the case) different mainstream DC authors have continually worked within the folds of these very popular works, and out of respect taken ideas from them in inspiration while also respectfully trying to not outright touch or contradict anything in them out of reverence for the original stories, which is effectively the exact opposite for what happened for e.g. Morrison (which is why we had to stop prioritizing Final Crisis/Multiversity information and take the last word, Snyder’s, over his).

I also don’t see too big of a gap between this and something like the differences between Hickman and Shooter’s versions of the Beyonder which was reconciled through Ewing doing something that Waid is seemingly doing now much more successfully than what Snyder tried to do. It would also bring Marvel and DC to a much closer state of having two canons each (with DeMatteis having more in common with both his Marvel and DC canons than the other ones have with each other), which is a good case of symmetry.

In either case we’d have to create a new list of contradictions since as Goofy pointed out they’re either misrepresentative or inapplicable. I also don’t have any commentary on the tiering, just the reversal of this individual split.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I also think this seems good based on my understanding of both cosmologies, having read both, and understanding what would result from it. The upgrades are going to be very interesting but yeah I see no issue with it conceptually.

The DC History Book confirms their current intent to combine the two cosmologies so there isn't much if any wiggle room to that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I don't think you can have multiple Tier 0s since its about a singular entity. So I'm not sure about the Moks all being Tier 0.

I'd also like it if the actual tier suggestions were spelled out in more detail in the proposal.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

• The Presence (Yahweh) and Elaine Belloc: The former is one of the creators of Creation. Goes by many things; Lord of Hosts, God of the Covenant, and etc….the latter replacesd the former when he left his position open. Relative to each other.

Hold up. Wait a minute. Didn't you mention a while ago you didn't agree with them being on the same tier ? Did that change , and if so , why ?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't think you can have multiple Tier 0s since its about a singular entity. So I'm not sure about the Moks all being Tier 0.

There's only one 0. That would be the Creator/Unknowable. The Jin En Moks aren't 0, when I say “God” in that sense is talking about beyond the jurisdiction of Yahweh, whom is just an aspect of “God” as in the oneness beyond all Creation, extensions, hierarchy, etc….

You can both say the “Presence” in reference to parts (aspect) and the whole (the 0 portion).

I'd also like it if the actual tier suggestions were spelled out in more detail in the proposal.

This is true, but it’s not like I didn't mention the portion of tiering of beings outside Creation:

Now, for the interesting part; High 1-A+, and this portion will go to beings outside the Multiversal hierarchy.

They're all High 1-A+ as beings capable of actualizing worlds from the framework (The Void).

Hold up. Wait a minute. Didn't you mention a while ago you didn't agree with them being on the same tier ? Did that change , and if so , why ?

I don't recall saying this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

he Jin En Moks aren't 0, when I say “God” in that sense is talking about beyond the jurisdiction of Yahweh, whom is just an aspect of “God” as in the oneness beyond all Creation, extensions, hierarchy, etc….

The issue is that you used a term specifically about Tier 0 when talking about their upgrade

They are voidless beings without “form and void” and are boundless in their true state.

Which I think should probably be adjusted wording wise.

They're all High 1-A+ as beings capable of actualizing worlds from the framework (The Void).

I would still like this spelled out better, but I'm fine with a High 1-A+ change.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The issue is that you used a term specifically about Tier 0 when talking about their upgrade

Which I think should probably be adjusted wording wise.

The term Boundless as in 0 and just the term “boundless” in the sense of not being limited by spatial and temporal features are two different things.

I'll change the wording but I think it’s semantical.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Maybe I misunderstood, but are you giving High 1-A+ to every entity that can perform creatio ex nihilo from the void?

• The Demiurgic Archangels: These beings inherited the aspect of God’s power. Michael can casually forge about new Creations from absolute nothing, and Lucifer realm although similar in size to Yahweh’s is completely different. As it did not require the same things as such a removal of afterlives, making cause-and-effect as secondary instead of subjection that runs throughout Creation, and time itself working differently from the main Creation

• The Hands: The theoretical ascended beings as well as the Judges are accepted to be in the level of the Overvoid which is on the same plane as the Source. Beings that can bring about and actualize realities from the energy given to them.

I don’t quite understand why these beings would be High 1-A+ honestly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Maybe I misunderstood, but are you giving High 1-A+ to every entity that can perform creatio ex nihilo from the void?

I don’t quite understand why these beings would be High 1-A+ honestly.

The scaling comes from the ability to change the fundamental logic of Creation. When they do, they change whatever core things bind that Multiverse, where they change whatever thing necessitates that Creation.

In that they can use any form of belief from the Dreaming to make those things come true or just create a new world entirely.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The scaling comes from the ability to change the fundamental logic of Creation. When they do, they change whatever core things bind that Multiverse, where they change whatever thing necessitates that Creation.

In that they can use any form of belief from the Dreaming to make those things come true or just create a new world entirely.

Are there mentions that the Hands and the Archangels use the Dream to create realities?

I don’t have much memory of Vertigo unfortunately, but that argument seems a bit odd to me.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Are there mentions that the Hands and the Archangels use the Dream to create realities?

They don't typically use dreams per se. Dreams shape and define reality, the “reality” in question having many qualities that are innately connected to dreams. You can have a world that's only just eldritch creatures that constantly sleep and dream in spaces between the reals or a world where it’s a battle between cats and birds which exists outside the worlds, Heaven, and all realms.

The House of Mystery showed many of the “possible stories” that could be actualized into realities. When they couldn't they just endlessly layer themselves in the House, but we know in Sandman, enough belief will make some of those worlds come true and change the fundamental laws governing reality as such cats are no longer gigantic creatures who hunt humans and are the focal point of Creation to now be domesticated and subservient to humans.

So it checks the parameters of necessaily true and contingent while making the idea of the previous false. Obviously, it’s not just nominal since it’s not a parallel stipulation, but an entire change in the laws of reality. Cats being gigantic is a logical contradiction and also paradoxically impossible.

The Hands and Archangels can utilize those, but, they actualize worlds ie creation ex nihilo.

I don’t have much memory of Vertigo unfortunately, but that argument seems a bit odd to me.

The Vertigo thread covers a lot. It was brain rot reading House of Mystery, but that's a good place to start.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

They don't typically use dreams per se. Dreams shape and define reality, the “reality” in question having many qualities that are innately connected to dreams. You can have a world that's only just eldritch creatures that constantly sleep and dream in spaces between the reals or a world where it the battle between cats and birds which exists outside the worlds, Heaven, and all realms.

The House of Mystery showed many of the “possible stories” that could be actualized into realities. When they couldn't they just endlessly layer themselves in the House, but we know in Sandman, enough belief will make some of those worlds come true and change the fundamental laws governing reality as such cats are no longer gigantic creatures who hunt humans and are the focal point of Creation to now be domesticated and subserviant to humans.

So it checks the parameters of necessaily true and contingent while making the idea of the previous false. Obviously, it’s not just nominal since it’s not a parallel stipulation, but an entire change in the laws of reality.

The Hands and Archangels can utilize those, but, they actualize worlds ie creation ex nihilo.

I do agree with the "True Form" Endless being High 1-A+, but that argument feels a bit off to me — mainly because, as far as I understand how the Dream works, altering a universe through it is limited by the epistemic level of the entity using it.

I don’t think there’s enough information to claim that the Hands and the Archangels can literally update any possible reality, because they have limitations themselves. That’s pretty clear if you consider that neither group (at least as far as I know) has used any similar power to create realities. The Hands, in fact, are directly limited to Crisis energy for acts of creation.

The true aspect of the Dream should scale above all of them.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I do agree with the "True Form" Endless being High 1-A+, but that argument feels a bit off to me — mainly because, as far as I understand how the Dream works, altering a universe through it is limited by the epistemic level of the entity using it.

Well, I guess we can summarize it as this:

Necessarily true e.g. “All humans are the dominate species and they rule over lesser beings as such cats.”

Necessarily false e.g. “Cats can't be big and lord over lesser things because that logic no longer exist.” In both aspects that the rules of reality dictate that humans lord over them and the laws of physics can't let them grow that big.

I don’t think there’s enough information to claim that the Hands and the Archangels can update any possible reality, because they have limitations themselves. That’s pretty clear if you consider that neither group (at least as far as I know) has used any similar power to create realities. The Hands, in fact, are directly limited to Crisis energy for acts of creation.

Well, partly that they (The Hands) also scale to the Source and exist on the same level as the Overvoid. You know there's no formal “higher” between the High 1-A+.

The true aspect of the Dream should scale above all of them.

Yeah. Ultima and I debated, he prefers keeping the very truest form of the Endless above the Archangels, but High 1-A+ can also affect these worlds (not that they are limited to the process of history), and the Archangels aren't bound to these worlds. The problem is how much they can change if dreams play a role in it but I realize Lucifer has many faces in many folklore and religions does summarizes he's a constant as Yahweh’s negative shadow. Plus, he can survive in the Void where he technically brought about a Creation, although that isn't as great of an example as the cat world thing, but it should apply since Elaine stumbled upon the Dreaming in his Creation as well meaning they can be permutations and multiplicity of other modal worlds that come from changing some form of his creation. It just hasn't happened because lack of imagination in his creations, possibly?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well, partly that they (The Hands) also scale to the Source and exist on the same level as the Overvoid. You know there's no formal “higher” between the High 1-A+.

Well, maybe I’m wrong, but just existing in the void doesn’t necessarily mean you scale to that void. It’s like a fish in an infinite ocean — I don’t know if I’m making myself clear. It just feels like a strange way to scale the Hands.

"THROUGHOUT THE VOID, BEINGS LIKE PERPETUA ARE TASKED WITH STARTING MULTIVERSES. THEY DO THIS USING CONNECTIVE ENERGY, BORN OF THE PRESENCE, OF THE SOURCE"

Based on what I understand, these beings use Crisis energy to create realities — they don’t use the logical possibilities of the Dream. I get what you’re trying to argue, but it feels like too big of a leap to me.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, maybe I’m wrong, but just existing in the void doesn’t necessarily mean you scale to that void. It’s like a fish in an infinite ocean — I don’t know if I’m making myself clear. It just feels like a strange way to scale the Hands.

No, I got you. I was pivoting that all High 1-A+ are of equal existence, but the Hands still have too much lackingness to their abilities to get the tier.

Based on what I understand, these beings use Crisis energy to create realities — they don’t use the logical possibilities of the Dream. I get what you’re trying to argue, but it feels like too big of a leap to me.

Yeah….the Hands might have to lose it. I will remove them.

As for the Archangels at least they complete the one of the niches for High 1-A+:

That said, characters who embody the framework of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds while nevertheless existing in one.

 

[Xearesay]

I don’t think the vertigo stories like Lucifer and Sandman should have ever been interpreted as outside of DC continuity so I’ll say I agree with that part, however I disagree with how you're trying to interpret the cosmic hierarchy as it largely invalidates the map and either ignores or misinterprets multiple other defined elements of the cosmology.

Evidently, this is only half-true. Hecate’s Collective Unconscious didn't really create the gods. Humans did through belief which shapes the Universe, Magic, and the Sphere of the Gods. Hecate only gave touches of her power to give these gods powers to rule within their own pantheons. Dreams/belief/stories are all interchangeable terms. So this isn't really note-worthy and we know a certain Sandman comic shows the power of “belief.”

She did create the Gods. In here it's said by Diana that the moon or Hecate, pulls the mind just as much as the real moon pulls the tides, and the moon oversees the hidden(unconscious) parts of ourselves, and shapes and forms them into dreams. Here the writer of this story, James Tynion, would also clarify this relationship between the dreaming and the Collective Unconscious, by talking about how the dreaming is where the power of the Collective Unconscious becomes something more literal than a dream. Additionally, he would refer to heaven as interpreted in the Sphere of Gods, as transcended by the archetype of heaven in the Collective Unconscious. This is simply through the manner in which the collective idea of heaven is more real than any individual interpretation given to it. However, this doesn't just explain why the realms exist, but also how all the Gods and god-like beings exist in those realms themselves without overlap. For example. on New Genesis, Orion is war, but on Mount Olympus, war is known as Ares. They are both war because they are two distinct ways of looking at war, which as an archetype transends them both by virtue of remaining unexpressed, and yet patterned across all of it's interpretations.

Furthermore, here Grant Morrison would also support the narrative James Tynion set up, where he would refer to the Sphere of Gods as a result of humanities attempt to render the Collective Unconscious. Dematteis would also explore this same message here, where a member of the Risen(a group of archetypes in the Collective Unconscious), would be acknowledged as the archetype behind beings like The Word or the Presence, even though he is truly nameless. And all of this would be encompassed by Hecate as she represents the entirety of the Collective Unconscious itself.

Everything else in your post hinges on this, so I don't feel the need to address much else. I also don't know how you got the Dreaming to uncountable high 1-A layers as none of the scans you used suggest any type of ontological transcendence. You also throw out the flash series which has no relation to the uncountable layers scan you posted, so there's nothing supporting that tier at all. I also disagree with almost every vertigo character you put at High 1-A+, since are quite literally transcended by the Collective Unconscious, Limbo, and Nil. The Hands actually might have a justification for type 1 and The Source per se, should be flat out tier 0, but I feel like that's a topic for another day.

Lastly, I don't even know how you think the Endless are high 1-A+ if their native realms are not High 1-A+ but merely uncountable layers as you suggest. So unless you think the Dreaming is High 1-A+, they shouldn't really be that tier either. And also, the preview of the upcoming DC history comic that you linked, points out how the Endless were created as a side effect of Perpetua sparking existence, which is a complete contradiction to them being High 1-A+ unless you think the Endless are as powerful as Perpetua too. Although that wouldn't make sense either since Perpetua operates on a completely different level of existence to them, and created the realms in which they emerged. Also, funnily enough your whole post doesn't even attempt to explain the Monitors, which is odd since they're shown and implied to be above the Endless in the preview you posted. I wonder why you didn’t care to tier the Monitors?

 

[Osemere]

Well, maybe I’m wrong, but just existing in the void doesn’t necessarily mean you scale to that void. It’s like a fish in an infinite ocean — I don’t know if I’m making myself clear. It just feels like a strange way to scale the Hands.

I agree with this (that they shouldn’t be on the level of the Source), but if we’re equalizing it with the Void it would gain further justification for H1-A+ itself due to some statements Morrison made about his view of the Light in the Crisis Cosmology some years ago:


This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God, so I’m not here to give anyone a hard time over interpretation.

Perpetua being able to take “shards” from this Void to create universes means she’s selecting from the totality of all possible thoughts and concepts, even contradicting ones, which is similar to the Demiurgic and Luciferian power the brothers gained after the Presence sought to start over due to Perpetua’s failure under this cosmology-merging. Of course this would only be type 1 with power from the Source, since Perpetua would still be within the Source as a thought, but that doesn’t disqualify the tiering itself (just the type of the tiering).

 

[Osemere]

Sorry to double post, but given the consensus so far is that a merge is warranted, shouldn’t scaling be left for a secondary thread just like how the original threads for the split happened?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

She did create the Gods. In here it's said by Diana that the moon or Hecate, pulls the mind just as much as the real moon pulls the tides, and the moon oversees the hidden(unconscious) parts of ourselves, and shapes and forms them into dreams. Here the writer of this story, James Tynion, would also clarify this relationship between the dreaming and the Collective Unconscious, by talking about how the dreaming is where the power of the Collective Unconscious becomes something more literal than a dream. Additionally, he would refer to heaven as interpreted in the Sphere of Gods, as transcended by the archetype of heaven in the Collective Unconscious. This is simply through the manner in which the collective idea of heaven is more real than any individual interpretation given to it. However, this doesn't just explain why the realms exist, but also how all the Gods and god-like beings exist in those realms themselves without overlap. For example. on New Genesis, Orion is war, but on Mount Olympus, war is known as Ares. They are both war because they are two distinct ways of looking at war, which as an archetype transends them both by virtue of remaining unexpressed, and yet patterned across all of it's interpretations.

Furthermore, here Grant Morrison would also support the narrative James Tynion set up, where he would refer to the Sphere of Gods as a result of humanities attempt to render the Collective Unconscious. Dematteis would also explore this same message here, where a member one member of the Risen(a group of archetypes in the Collective Unconscious), would be acknowledged as the archetype behind beings like The Word or the Presence, even though he is truly nameless. And all of this would be encompassed by Hecate as she represents not only the entirety of the Collective Unconscious itself.

Everything else in your post hinges on this, so I don't feel the need to address much else. I also don't know how you got the Dreaming to uncountable high 1-A layers as none of the scans you used suggest any type of ontological transcendence. You also throw out the flash series which has no relation to the uncountable layers scan you posted, so there's no correlation there at all there. I also disagree with every character you put at High 1-A+ for obvious reasons, since they quite literally are all transcended by the Collective Unconscious except The Source which per se, should be flat out tier 0, but that's a topic for another day.

Lastly, I don't even know how you think the Endless are high 1-A+ if their native realms are not High 1-A+ but merely uncountable layers as you suggest. So unless you think the Dreaming is High 1-A+, they shouldn't really be that tier either. And also, the preview of the upcoming DC history comic that you linked, points out how the Endless were created as a side effect of Perpetua sparking existence, which is a complete contradiction to them being High 1-A+ unless you think the Endless are as powerful as Perpetua too. Although that wouldn't make sense either since Perpetua operates on a completely different level of existence to them. Also, funnily enough your whole post also doesn't even attempt to explain the Monitors, which is crazy since they're shown and implied to be above the Endless in the preview you posted, which makes sense since they operate on the same existence level as Perpetua, meaning the Endless can't be above them even if we ignore the whole Collective Unconscious thing.

We've discussed this several times. I'm not going to do another tangent about Hecate. I'll just put you down for disagreeing with the tiers and agreeing with the merge.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Sorry to double post, but given the consensus so far is that a merge is warranted, shouldn’t scaling be left for a secondary thread just like how the original threads for the split happened?

I decided to pull one of my old tricks of just tackling two birds with one stone.

Quite ironic since Ultima told me in another thread to cover a split/merge in one thread and the tiering for another. Then again, that's no fun.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Perpetua being able to take “shards” from this Void to create universes means she’s selecting from the totality of all possible thoughts and concepts, even contradicting ones, which is similar to the Demiurgic and Luciferian power the brothers gained after the Presence sought to start over due to Perpetua’s failure under this cosmology-merging. Of course this would only be type 1 with power from the Source, since Perpetua would still be within the Source as a thought, but that doesn’t disqualify the tiering itself (just the type of the tiering).

That's too much speculation, especially since we never really get this in the actual comic. His version of God would just be 0 rather than anything lower. The Overvoid as of now isn't 0.

 

[Osemere]

That's too much speculation, especially since we never really get this in the actual comic. His version of God would just be 0 rather than anything lower. The Overvoid as of now isn't 0.

Sure, but it’s not the end-all be-all there. The Overvoid (the thing that is consciously aware of itself and is the “supermind” there) even in his model was the thing drawn upon against its will and it was also corrupted by narratives upon first contact, which is also an instance of changing the framework of logic likened to the Vertigo instance. The true unconscious mind Grant would believe in would be the tier 0 in this case, what we would call the Creator, etc. Since it’s not that largely contradicted I think it’s fine as a secondary justification.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I agree with this (that they shouldn’t be on the level of the Source), but if we’re equalizing it with the Void it would gain further justification for H1-A+ itself due to some statements Morrison made about his view of the Light in the Crisis Cosmology some years ago:

Perpetua being able to take “shards” from this Void to create universes means she’s selecting from the totality of all possible thoughts and concepts, even contradicting ones, which is similar to the Demiurgic and Luciferian power the brothers gained after the Presence sought to start over due to Perpetua’s failure under this cosmology-merging. Of course this would only be type 1 with power from the Source, since Perpetua would still be within the Source as a thought, but that doesn’t disqualify the tiering itself (just the type of the tiering).

I’m not knowledgeable enough about DC to properly debate this topic, so I’ll leave it in the hands of those who know the verse, to avoid putting more pressure on Goofy than he’s probably already under.

That said, I’d like to point out that pulling X possibilities from an unlimited pool of potentialities (especially in the very limited way the Hands do) shouldn’t scale to High 1-A+. It feels like assuming they can literally update a reality using the entire content of the Overvoid, when as far as I remember, that’s never stated.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Sure, but it’s not the end-all be-all there. The Overvoid (the thing that is consciously aware of itself and is the “supermind” there) even in his model was the thing drawn upon against its will and it was also corrupted by narratives upon first contact, which is also an instance of changing the framework of logic likened to the Vertigo instance. The true unconscious mind Grant would believe in would be the tier 0 in this case, what we would call the Creator, etc. Since it’s not that largely contradicted I think it’s fine as a secondary justification.

The Overvoid being 0 is fine if Grant had a stand-alone cosmology like DeMatteis (This sentiment was shared by Ultima), but since we keep him as part of Crisis Cosmology then we can't really pivot the Overvoid any higher than what it’s already accepted as.

 

[Osemere]

That said, I’d like to point out that pulling X possibilities from an unlimited pool of potentialities (especially in the very limited way the Hands do) shouldn’t scale to High 1-A+. It feels like assuming they can literally update a reality using the entire content of the Overvoid, when as far as I remember, that’s never stated.

Oh, I never meant it to be a direct H1-A+ instance. You'd be correct that since doing anything at all would be selecting from the collection of all possibilities, this would just be further justification that the Hands as being empowered by the Source would be capable of acting upon the abstract level of all possibility if we further tie this into the Dreaming being able to act on that level if we do this merge.

The Overvoid being 0 is fine if Grant had a stand-alone cosmology like DeMatteis (This sentiment was shared by Ultima), but since we keep him as part of Crisis Cosmology then we can't really pivot the Overvoid any higher than what it’s already accepted as.

I agree with this. It's just that using that statement as a tie-in to this merge with regard to the Source and the Void, as the manifest portion would make everything possible (as you said) selecting from the unmanifest portion, which would be the "sum total" of all those possible thoughts as Grant said. It wouldn't be tier 0 since that's overwritten by the further authors in their cosmological hierarchies, it's just that seemingly the contemporary Crisis cosmology accepts the Light/Void as being an abstract level of possibility anyway (compare this with Spurrier and his idea of the Source being a "mathematical principle" behind all concepts and math.)

For the record again I’m fine with ignoring this statement but I would say it gains some precedent in the Light being basically the same thing as the Void is in the Vertigo cosmology which also helps this merge, it’s just that even if you want to ignore it lesser instances of that concept seems to pop up lately in places like Spurrier. But given that it’s basically irrelevant, I don’t care which way or another.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Oh, I never meant it to be a direct H1-A+ instance. You'd be correct that since doing anything at all would be selecting from the collection of all possibilities, this would just be further justification that the Hands as being empowered by the Source would be capable of acting upon the abstract level of all possibility if we further tie this into the Dreaming being able to act on that level if we do this merge.

To clarify. The Dreaming isn't High 1-A+, it’s only baseline High 1-A because it was accepted as that in my previous Vertigo thread. The idea is to use “dreams” to actualize worlds. Since the worlds that don't exist are within the Dreaming and they don't count as modal worlds. Those “worlds” are facets of the Dreaming, so yeah, they're not High 1-A+ until they're actualized into formed reality. These “dream worlds” are more real than the physical world universes, but they are nothing beyond that. So scaling above the Dreaming unfortunately isn't High 1-A+

Plus, when I asked Ultima a while back about High 1-A+ Dreaming, he didn't like the idea that something that's not the apex getting that tier. I agree.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

For the record again I’m fine with ignoring this statemen but I would say it gains some precedent in the Light being basically the same thing as the Void is in the Vertigo cosmology which also helps this merge, it’s just that even if you want to ignore it lesser instances of that concept seems to pop up lately in places like Spurrier. But given that it’s basically irrelevant, I don’t care which way or another.

Well, the Light is accepted as another name for the Overvoid. The Void from Vertigo would be beyond both since the Greater Omniverse which contains infinite Creations is no less the same as the very small portion of the Void teeming with Creations rising and falling as amounting to 0 to the actual Void.

 

[Osemere]

To clarify. The Dreaming isn't High 1-A+, it’s only baseline High 1-A because it was accepted as that in my previous Vertigo thread. The idea is to use “dreams” to actualize worlds. Since the worlds that don't exist are within the Dreaming and they don't count as modal worlds. Those “worlds” are facets of the Dreaming, so yeah, they're not High 1-A+ until they're actualized into formed reality. These “dream worlds” are more real than the physical world universes, but they are nothing beyond that. So scaling above the Dreaming unfortunately isn't High 1-A+

Plus, when I asked Ultima a while back about High 1-A+ Dreaming, he didn't like the idea that something that's not the apex getting that tier. I agree.

Yeah, I misspoke there, I didn’t mean the actual cosmological-structure but the mode of narrative and belief that changed the setting in Sandman #18. I agree with everything you (and Ultima seemingly) said here. I’m also fine with the interpretation that the Light and the Void aren’t the same thing, as the latter is uncorrupted and unbound by story while the former was, it’s just that by my previous comment in saying they were talking about the same thing in a merge-scenario would be with regard to the manifest/unmanifested dichotomy (of H1-A+ type 1 and type 2 in terms of the “energy” the aspect gives and the actual Void which is the “unconscious” of the actual capital-G God.) So I’m fine with all the tiering you’ve set out so far in principle.

 

[Xearesay]

Well, the Light is accepted as another name for the Overvoid. The Void from Vertigo would be beyond both since the Greater Omniverse which contains infinite Creations is no less the same as the very small portion of the Void teeming with Creations rising and falling as amounting to 0 to the actual Void.

In what comic is it said that the Void Lucifer went into contains the Greater Omniverse? You realize that the Angels can literally traverse that void when flying to earth from the silver city right? It’s quite literally just the space the Silver City sits in, so claiming that it’s beyond the entire map and the Overvoid is just wild.

The Void as shown in the Lucifer comics has no evidence of transcending the Overvoid. This is just another attempt of yours to just absolutely revise the cosmology while completely ignoring the map of the Multiverse because it goes against whatever characters you’re trying to scale to some tier they don’t belong in.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

In what comic is it said that the Void Lucifer went into contains the Greater Omniverse? You realize that the Angels can literally traverse that void when flying to earth from the silver city right?

It was shown in the Sandman comics that the “Void” was the gap in between realms. Morpehus traverses through the void to get to Hell. The concept of multiple Creations that are not just different versions of the same Universe wasn't introduced until Lucifer. Gaiman had a weird interpretation of the term “void” throughout his Sandman series. In Overture, you can apparently be faster than “void.”

During that time of writing, it was implied the Silver City wasn't even Heaven as in a paradise that souls go to, but something that was not part of the order of created things ie Creation.

The Void as shown in the Lucifer comics has no evidence of transcending the Overvoid. This is just another attempt of yours to just absolutely revise the cosmology while completely ignoring the map of the Multiverse because it goes against whatever characters you’re trying to scale to some tier they don’t belong in.

The Map is very outdated.

Again, I'm not planning to argue endlessly with you. You've made your stance clear.

 

[Xearesay]

It was shown in the Sandman comics that the “Void” was the gap in between realms. Morpehus traverse through the Void to get to Hell. The concept of multiple Creations that are not just different versions of the same Universe wasn't introduced until Lucifer. Gaiman had a weird interpretation with the term “void” throughout his Sandman series. In Overture, you can apparently be faster than the “void.”

During that time of writing, it was implied the Silver City wasn't even Heaven as in a paradise that souls go to, but something that was not part of the order of created things ie Creation.

Ok, but this just supports my claim that it’s not beyond the Greater Omniverse. Since to exist there you’d need to transcend the entire map, which the Silver City and all realms in this Void, do not.

The Map is very outdated.

Again, I'm not planning to argue endlessly with you. You've made your stance clear.

The map is not outdated. It has been used multiple times every year and in every major event, since its release in Multiversity(2014). I can actually find you an instance from this year and last year, where the map was used. I feel like you know this is not true so I’m not even gonna take it very seriously.

You’re making new claims that aren’t in your OP, like suggesting that the Void shown in Vertigo transcends the map and the Overvoid, so I’m allowed to express my disagreement with these newer claims too.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

In the DC-history preview, we know that the Silver City which is a fortress of Heaven is at the heart of Creation. This aligns with the notion during the Lucifer series about beginning places such as Yggdrasil and Eden Garden.

So what I'm trying to get at is that these places have been there since the Dawn of Time. We can also include “The Shining Tower” from Eternity Girl that is at the heart of everything. These are the cosmologically apex within the Multiverse and we should add them to the blog. Especially when all things collapse even the “Void” collapses into true non-existence ie the Great Darkness/The Void.

 

[Xearesay]

So what I'm trying to get at is that these places have been there since the Dawn of Time. We can also include “The Shining Tower” from Eternity Girl that is at the heart of everything. These are the cosmologically apex within the Multiverse and we should add them to the blog. Especially when all things collapse even the “Void” collapses into true non-existence ie the Great Darkness/The Void.

Are you saying that they’ve been there before Perpetua brought about existence? If so that’s nonsense since Perpetua created the Collective Unconscious, which by extension creates the Dreaming, which then literalize’s the Silver City from dreams. And when they move out of the dreaming, they’re retroactively added to creation as if they already existed. This is supported in the Dream of a Thousand Cats story that I’m sure you’re familiar with. That’s why every being in the Godsphere like Darkseid, Zeus, Odin, Rama, etc, all have statements about being eternal and beyond “creation.” Creation in the context of Godsphere denizens, is not referring to the whole map. It’s just referring to the mortal realm which they all claim to be the true creators of in their myths. And I gave you like a whole truckload of evidence for this. I don’t you think you realize that I could literally scale beings like Rama Kushna and Lords of Order/chaos, to the same tiers that you like to propose Lucifer, Michael, and the Presence are, since they literally have the same statements. All I need to do is just ignore the creation myth element, and boom, tier 0 Rama Kushna.

And I’m still not past you trying to say the map was outdated, when it’s obviously not, it just contradicts your interpretation of things.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Are you saying that they’ve been there before Perpetua brought about existence? If so that’s nonsense since Perpetua created the Collective Unconscious, which by extension creates the Dreaming, which then literalize’s the Silver City from dreams. And when they move out of the dreaming, they’re retroactively added to creation as if they already existed. That’s why every being in the Godsphere like Darkseid, Zeus, Odin, etc, all have statements about being eternal and beyond “creation.” That’s why creation in the context of Godsphere denizens, is not referring to the whole map. It’s just referring to the mortal realm which they all claim to be the true creators of in their myths. I gave you like a whole truckload of evidence for this.

They were there at the earliest moments of Creation, I didn't say they predate it. It doesn't matter if it was before or after Perpetua being sealed, they were there when things began.

As for Perpetua, she only created the structure of the Multiverse in the three forms. So she didn't create anything outside of that and things naturally came and progressed from the Multiverse growing. So I highly doubt, she made the Collective Unconscious or any of the realms I mentioned.

Though, the Collective Unconscious didn't create the Dreaming. It is the Dreaming since you know the Dreaming has been called the very same name countless times and is the source of all dream/nightmarish archetype as we see in the Sandman written by the same author who wrote Justice League Dark.

And I’m still not past you trying to say the map was outdated, when it’s obviously not, it just contradicts your interpretation of things.

Yeah, it’s outdated. Some stuff added later on does not appear in it and every time it’s used, it’s not for accuracy but just the generalized shape of the Multiverse and its outline. We see it during Dark Crisis and during that time the Source Wall and the Orrery should have existed. Even during the time of the Final Crisis, there shouldn't even be a Source Wall yet we see it on the map when it came out with Multiversity. It’s a generalized showing of the structure of the Multiverse, which does not mean it’s up to date which means it’s outdated.

Simple logic that goes above your head. Then again, you make some weird notion with things despite it not being accepted in the Wiki.

 

[Elizhaa]

The opening proposals look fine, from what I read.

 

[Xearesay]

First, just to prove a point. Here’s how Rama Kushna becomes literally tier 0 off of ignoring creation myth like you’re doing with Lucifer and the Presence.

As for Perpetua, she only created the structure of the Multiverse in the three forms. So she didn't create anything outside of that and things naturally came and progressed from the Multiverse growing. So I highly doubt, she made the Collective Unconscious or any of the realms I mentioned.

The sphere of gods and the Collective Unconscious are a part of the seven forces of creation, which is Perpetua’s power so this is just wrong. Also, in the preview you posted it literally states that from her creation came the Endless who are beings in the Sphere of Gods, and are responsible for the rest of the Sphere of Gods existing, which you know includes the Silver City.

Yeah, it’s outdated. Some stuff added later on does not appear in it and every time it’s used, it’s not for accuracy but just the generalized shape of the Multiverse and its outline. We see it during Dark Crisis and during that time the Source Wall and the Orrery should have existed. Even during the time of the Final Crisis, there shouldn't even be a Source Wall yet we see it on the map when it came out with Multiversity. It’s a generalized showing of the structure of the Multiverse, which does not mean it’s up to date which means it’s outdated.

Of course, other and newer stuff doesn’t appear on it, it’s a map of the cosmos, it’s not supposed to showcase everything to the most explicit detail. If we had to go by your standard of accuracy, no map in the world would be accurate since all maps are supposed to be generalizations in some way, even basic park maps. Like imagine if DC released a new map, every time a new alternate universe was “discovered” in the Multiverse because the previous map didn’t have it specifically illustrated in the Orrery. Do you know how ridiculously stupid that would be? They would be releasing a new map like every freaking year. And even then you could still argue that it’s not accurate in some way, since you can get even more specific than a universe, since specificity is how you’re judging accuracy here.

Maps are accurate as long as the general pattern they are trying to show, hasn’t changed. And since DC keeps using the map, the general pattern must still be relevant. The reason they don’t illustrate for you that (insert new realm) is in the Sphere of Gods, is because you’re supposed to use common sense and apply whatever new that comes out, into somewhere on the map. This is actually talked about by Tynion btw. Although truthfully, we shouldn’t even have to discuss this because you’re not talking about a newer realm, you’re talking about the silver city which has been around for decades. I’m not arguing with you about whether some new realm is on the map, I’m arguing with you about a whether a realm that already existed before the map and was illustrated on the map, holds true to… the map.

I digress, the generalization(which you admit is what the map depicts), showcases the Silver City in the Sphere of Gods. So by that logic, if the map is still being used we consider the Silver City’s position in the Sphere of Gods, still accurate. Meaning every comic you’ve seen in the past about the Silver City, is taking place in the Sphere of Gods and the Void that the Silver City sits in, is clearly not beyond the Greater Omniverse or the Overvoid.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

First, just to prove a point. Here’s how Rama Kushna becomes literally tier 0 off of ignoring creation myth like you’re doing with Lucifer and the Presence.


The sphere of gods and the Collective Unconscious are a part of the seven forces of creation, which is Perpetua’s power so this is just wrong. Also, in the preview you posted it literally states that from her creation came the Endless who are beings in the Sphere of Gods, and are responsible for the rest of the Sphere of Gods existing, which you know includes the Silver City.


Of course, other and newer stuff doesn’t appear on it, it’s a map of the cosmos, it’s not supposed to showcase everything to the most explicit detail. If we had to go by your standard of accuracy, no map in the world would be accurate since all maps are supposed to be generalizations in some way, even basic park maps. Like imagine if DC released a new map, every time a new alternate universe was “discovered” in the Multiverse because the previous map didn’t have it specifically illustrated in the Orrery. Do you know how ridiculously stupid that would be? They would be releasing a new map like every freaking year. And even then you could still argue that it’s not accurate in some way, since you can get even more specific than a universe, since specificity is how you’re judging accuracy here.

Maps are accurate as long as the general pattern they are trying to show, hasn’t changed. And since DC keeps using the map, the general pattern must still be relevant. The reason they don’t illustrate for you that (insert new realm) is in the Sphere of Gods, is because you’re supposed to use common sense and apply whatever new that comes out, into somewhere on the map. This is actually talked about by Tynion btw. Although truthfully, we shouldn’t even have to discuss this because you’re not talking about a newer realm, you’re talking about the silver city which has been around for decades. I’m not arguing with you about whether some new realm is on the map, I’m arguing with you about a whether a realm that already existed before the map and was illustrated on the map, holds true to… the map.

I digress, the generalization(which you admit is what the map depicts), showcases the Silver City in the Sphere of Gods. So by that logic, if the map is still being used we consider the Silver City’s position in the Sphere of Gods, still accurate. Meaning every comic you’ve seen in the past about the Silver City, is taking place in the Sphere of Gods and the Void that the Silver City sits in, is clearly not beyond the Greater Omniverse or the Overvoid.

I'm curious. What's your proposal for the tiers?

 

[Xearesay]

I'm curious. What's your proposal for the tiers?

For the realms or the characters? For the cosmic landscape I’m making a massive blog that will go over basically everything. It’s still a work in progress but I plan to have it complete before the summer ends.

DC cosmology solved

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have most of this blog actually already completed in a google doc that spans over 60 pages detailing numerous scans and essays for why me and a group of others think everything we do about this verse, but getting all of it ready and organized takes time, hence why progress is slow.

For realms, the Sphere of Gods should start at baseline High 1-A. I think this part is accurate, I just don’t agree with Goofy’s reasoning for it, as I think his argument is very weak and relied on either flimsy or no evidence at all. Like for example the Flash series alone brings the Speed Force to like Low 1-A, and with a thorough understanding of the Green and the Red, the elemental realms could get 1-A+, which brings the Sphere of Gods to baseline by virtue of Swamp Thing considering the Gods and their realm beyond the Green. However, Goofy doesn’t even acknowledge any of this, and just uses some vague scans that don’t actually prove what he’s talking about.

Taking into account Dematteis could get the layers suspending from the Gods to the Collective Unconscious massively into High 1-A, but Dematteis’s stories are being treated separately from continuity without much of any reason, thanks to Goofy. And that’s something I’m going to have to address eventually. Nil should be High 1-A+ for very not so obvious reasons, and the Overvoid, The Source, and the Unknowable should be taken as one absolute and the tier 0 of the verse. You could throw the Smile in here too.

I interpret the Greater Omniverse as just the Overvoid where CAS was standing, and the Dark Multiverse as equivalent to the Orrery. With the Darkness and Light being two primal dualities within the Collective Unconscious, expressing themselves through the sphere of gods and the material world.