Crisis Cosmology Revision (Final Thread)

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is the last thread I promise. So, hopefully, the admins forgive me for making so many threads, but I had to spread the information since DC is split. Thus, I have a good reason for making these threads and this is an upgrade thread for the Crisis Cosmology.

Light of Creation Upgrade:​

The Light of Creation also known as: Overvoid, Source, and Creation will be upgraded to High 1-A.

As recently the Flash series has confirmed the Source is the Light itself. Not to mention the plane of existence where the Light/Source resides is a place that is not a place meaning it’s in some place that’s the Multiverse while simultaneously sustaining it from wherever non-place is.

Barry...it’s afraid. The….Light. The Source. It's scared.

Now, why does this matter? Well, it was explained throughout the comics that all levels of reality work on emanation. The source of it all birthing Time that runs throughout the Multiverse in which “Time” is everything which means the extent of this “Time” reaches every Multiverse which are susceptible to the Deep Change. (The Flash Vol.6 #11) Plus, it births the Speedforce, a primordial energy that sustains and nurture all time and space which it also pemeates. (Flash: Rebirth Vol.1 #4 & Flash Vol.1 #760)

Now the Source is possibly the source of the Deep Change which emanated time and the forces of Creation.

Spoiler: High 1-A

• The Deep Change is the “above-all” and the dreamer of everything. (The Flash Vol.6 #11)
• The Deep Change is the “all-thing” at the center of everything is the fountainhead of time. (The Flash Vol.6 #12)
• The Deep Change is beyond all sight and natural knowing. (The Flash Vol.6 #12)
• Time itself a byproduct of the Deep Change dreaming affects all things and exists outside causality. (The Flash Vol.6 #12)
• The Deep Change is the mathematical principle that underlines all things. (The Flash Vol.6 #13)
  • (Time and Math are not literal temporal and quantitative things as explained that the unknowable of the Source is undetectable by mundane things)
• The Deep Change is where all things are possible, where mundane and miraculous harmonize together. Where all time collides and where unimaginable now exists. (The Flash Vol.6 #13)
• The Deep Change is the source of Time itself and emanated Creation. Described as a both man and a monad though the former is obviously metaphorical. Due to being outside time and existence is atemporal. (The Flash Vol.6 #12)
• The Deep Change being infinity itself in a form of a dog was considered the source of all unprecendental power that were all innumerable worlds hinge on. (The Flash Vol.6 #15)
• It is at the center of all things and the prime mover that pushed Creation. (Green Lantern Vol.6 #7)
• A fragment of the Source called the Philsopher’s Stone has the ability to transcend reality itself. Its power can threaten all of time and space. (JLA Vol.1 #11)
• The Source sprang the universes from the nothingness. It makes a sound that is not a sound. A pain that transcends pain. (Genesis Vol.1 #3)
• The Source is everywhere and nowhere. (Genesis Vol.1 #4)
• The Source is eternal, to which its the all and beyond the all. (Jack Kirby’s Fourth World Vol.1 #1)
• One of its energy the Speedforce and Hypertime connects through all time and space in places of no time and space as well. (The Flash Vol.1 #798)

The Source exist outside of time(acasual and atemporal), where all reality(the Multiverse) is just a dream from it, and exists in an unimaginable now by itself(beyond both the Multiversal and Omniversal hierarchy).

R>F:​

It was shown several times that Wally West could breach the walls of reality and go outside the pages of comics: here. The Animal Man has shown this countless times to as reality is just a hallucination and nothing is ever real to the higher worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #19) This has been stated several times to be endless. (Animal Man Vol.1 #22 & #23)

In the Cosmology blog and in several threads. It has been accepted the Garden of Shadows has R>F over Creation. So the Source see it as unreality in the same vein that the Speedforce sees all things below it as fictional.

High 1-A is defined exactly as that:

Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-Arepresents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. In addition, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities, and so forth, endlessly.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the framework of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds while nevertheless existing in one.

Spoiler: R>F and BDE

Here are more examples of R>F and some BDE:
1 (Animal Man Vol.1 #53)
2 (Animal Man Vol.1 #54)
3 (Animal Man Vol.1 #86)
4 (Genesis Vol.1 #1)
5 (Jack Kirby’s Fourth World Vol.1 #2)
6 (Jack Kirby’s Fourth World Vol.1 #18)

The Great Darkness Upgrade:​

The Great Darkness is the infinite nothingness that preceded the Light of Creation as an invisible twinkle in its endless canvas. Nothingness is uncreated, can not be predated, and is the source of the Source of All Things.

So its the space from which all things can come and embodies what the Creator could contain. The Darkness is eternal, infinite, and outside all things would make it High 1-A+(type 2)

Spoiler: High 1-A+(Type 2)

• The Darkness is the nothingness from which consciousness arose. Thus, by waking up from the dream would you be sent back to the nothingness that begets everything. (Animal Man Vol.1 #48)
• An endless Void, an ocean of non-being from which all Creation and life sprang. Antagon wanted to send the vastness of the Universe back into non-existence. (Animal Man Vol.1 #49)
• Antagon using his power as the shadow of Creation was bringing darkness into the world of dreams and unreality. Which the darkness was bending and breaking time and space as well as reality as a whole. (Animal Man Vol.1 #50)
• The Darkness is the source of all life and death existing upon a seething whirlpool of life in the primal oblivion. (Animal Man Vol.1 #51)

Spoiler: Miscellaneous(Interviews about the Overvoid and the Hands):

The Overvoid exists in the same plane as the Source(which already has been accepted in the blog)

The Flash series said that all of Creation is just a slumber of the Source and it awaken to redo all the chaos in Creation with the help of the Flash family. Overvoid is said to be pure consciousness and the mind of the “Monitor.”

“It's kind of like in Buddhism where there's this pure consciousness that underlines everything, and you call it god, you call it the void. It contains everything - all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility.”

Again, the Overvoid like the Source is where all things are possible as said earlier.

In the interview with Scott Snyder. It was notioned a hierarchy of beings goes up until the Source. Obviously, this is supported as both Perpetua and the Cosmic Raptor have superiors. (Justice League Vol.4 #22)

Spoiler: Quantum Multiverse

This has been mentioned several times where the universes are quantumly connected in nature. Such examples are infinite possibility, Schrödinger’s Cat Theory, and quantum physics:
1 (Before Watchmen: Doctor Manhattan Vol.1 #1)
2 (Animal Man Vol.1 #32)
3 (Adventure of Supersons Vol.1 #1)
4 (Animal Man Vol.1 #18)

Low 1-A Material Realm:​

While we discuss the String-Theory conception of the 11-D brane cosmology. At the edge of the limitless Universe is the accumulation of time and space. Even the Absolute Universe exists outside time and space. This is considering each world/dimension can be higher than the other so special cases like the Absolute Universe aren't the only example. (Action Comics Vol.1 #1015) This is obvious since Earth-Omega itself also has no dimensional vibrancy. (Infinite Frontier Vol.1 #1) Which the Universe itself comprising of time and space can be threatened. (Superman Vol.6 #14) Wonderland is the utmost furthest part of the worlds of universes standing as the ultimate rim that envelopes all things. There is a very limit of time and space with only the Abyss and the metaphysical ahead of it. Reality itself being infinite in both complexity and in life with each level being more profound in nature. (Animal Man Vol.1 #6) The Green itself touches all these realms and spaces. (Hellblazer Vol.1 #193) Which the Rot itself also has layers. (Swamp Thing Vol.5 #12) There are a possible myriads of dimensions beyond space-time as the elemental realms touch on higher dimensions which stretches to possible infinity(possibly infinite spatial dimensions) (Animal Man Vol.1 #83)

Spoiler: Bohm’s Implicate Theory

All worlds are interconnected as the whole as suggest by Bohm’s Implicate Theory where all metaphors and words are jumbled together without knowing who dreams who. (Animal Man Vol.1 #12) Expressing that the worlds are reflections of each other, more so unfolding of time and worlds on each level. (Animal Man Vol.1 #15)

Spoiler: The Bleed/Bleedspace

The bleed space is an interdimensional Void, which means it lacks physical composition is said to exist outside of physical reality. (Lazarus Planet: We Were Once Gods Vol.1 #1) It was also described as a transdimensional energy that premeates and hit all infinity of universes. (Batman/Superman: World’s Finest Vol.1 #23) The Bleed connecting through infinite worlds, crises, and possibilities. (Batman Vol.3 #134)

Spoiler: Phantom Zone

The Phantom Zone outside the worlds is a timeless dimension of vast near-infinite nothingness (Action Comics Vol.1 #984) as a sort of void between worlds. This is why physical form and time passage really don't matter. (Batman/Santa Claus: Silent Knight Vol.1 #4)

Spoiler: Timestream and Vanishing Point

Mister Mind feeding of the timestream was corrupting time and space. (Booster Gold Vol.2 #1) A more abstract realm called Vashing Point exists outside the timestream which itself means it exists beyond time and space. (Booster Gold: Futures End Vol.1 #1) Timepoint exists outside the Speedforce which connect through all time and space. (The Flash Vol.1 #796)

1-A Higher Realms and 1-A+ Totality of Creation:​

As stated several times that planes beyond corporeal reality are said to exist outside time and space such as the Green.(Justice League Dark Vol.2 #25) As such planes beyond the physical use entire concepts of time and space where they exist in place of no place and time of no time. (Infinite Frontier Vol.1 #0) Beings in these higher realm exist beyond the bounds of time and space where they are seemingly infinite in lower planes. (JLA Vol.1 #29) Behind the mortal plane is a vast absence manifested as a Great White Light beyond the recursion of worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #14) The Great White Light being the buffer zone between our primary reality and higher reality. (Animal Man Vol.1 #24) A transcendental vision of the infinite, of worlds beyond the real(most likely referring to Heaven) (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #53)

Spoiler: The Red/Lifeweb

As such Life itself is connected to a morphogenetic field or the Red is described as sort like Plato's archetypal world. (Animal Man Vol.1 #18) Being one with the Red and serving as the role of Animal Master is so ancient it goes to the beginning of time and even predates Antagon. Where the M-Field is timeless and spaceless serving in the center of the vastness of the worlds and life.(Animal Man Vol.1 #49) The M-Field/The Source of life as Animal Masters exist in a place of no time and no space. Where all the worlds of dream and imagination existing in the mind that's everywhere and nowhere is part of the Source. (Animal Man Vol.1 #50) The Red at its very core is a placeless place without time or space. (Animal Man Vol.1 #50) The lifeweb is interconnected with the Red and all life as symbolized from each of its bliion branches being a form of life. It's distinct from the world of flesh and if connected to a complex tree of life that divides infinitely and grows from the primordial soup of Creation. (Animal Man Vol.1 #55) The Red is the web of life that connects everything in the planet in both their birth and death. (Animal Man Vol.1 #73) The Lifeweb stretches infinitely to higher dimensions. (Animal Man Vol.1 #80) The Web of Life connects through the Kingdoms of spirit, mind, and imagination. (Animal Man Vol.1 #87). The World Soul spreads throughout all consciousness and eternity. Endlessly growing and premeating the implicate folding of worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #87)

Spoiler: R>F Hierarchy

The Cosmology blog already highlights several examples of these realms not being “places” but ideas that are not tied to time, this is considering there are infinite planes. (The Hellblazer Vol.1 #3) In several of these planes they not only support the worlds below them but also exist and cut in between them. Now given what we said of emanation it is possible for them to have R>F difference with the prime example being the Garden but there's also many forces and places in the same ontological existence as the Speed Force. Stated that reality again has an endless flow of emanation. (The Flash Vol.6 #11) In the Dreaming or the Dream Universe exists worlds within worlds seen as dreams within dreams. (Justice League America Vol.1 #74) Gods such as Auteru.io was able to use ideas from Earth-0 to create an endless amount of unreal worlds from a superseding reality called an archive of worlds.

Spoiler: Heaven

Heaven has more of everything and is considered a higher order of reality. (JLA Vol.1 #6) Time doesn't exist in Heaven since it is a realm beyond time and space. God in Heaven sees his creations as simple artwork and drawings that he drew and emanate. Where reality is called secondary as Heaven transcends it. (Animal Man Vol.1 #5) As such Heaven is a higher order in reality where its connects and sustains the world of forms. Everything itself being a dream within a dream. (Animal Man Vol.1 #19) Heaven also is the part in a perfect axis of symmetry. (JLA: Paradise Lost Vol.1 #1)

Spoiler: Fifth Dimension

The Fifth Dimension properties see all things as little boxes of which transcending those little boxes has dominion over all time and space. (Batman/Superman Vol.2 #22) Imps having the ability to affect the infinite multiverse and rewrite reality endlessly. (Action Comics Vol.1 #1000) They have the ability to alter time and matter as well as the laws of physics just by thinking. They can also messes with the non-material realms such as the Rock of Eternity and Heaven and distort visions of time. (JLA Vol.1 #28) The Fifth Dimension completely transcends the lower plane where they can freely travel through Time and Hypertime. (JLA Vol.1 #30) The Fifth Dimension completely sees the plane below them as fictional. (JLA Vol.1 #31) Seeing as it beyond any quantitative measure as well as time and space. (Action Comics Vol.2 #15)

Spoiler: Totality of Creation

All of Creation is represented through an endless ladder with parts of it deeper than any time and space with an endless pool of nothing beneath it. Areas where all dreams and imagination can come real and some parts even beyond the stairs. (Are you afraid of Darkseid Vol.1 #1) At the very bottom where the last reaches of the elemental forces happen is a timeless Void. (Animal Man Vol.2 #18)

God:​

The Creator or the supreme essence of perfection works through emanation and aspects. As such the Soul of the World, the M-Field, Spider Queen, and all of Creation is just an imagination of God, all part of its body and mind. (Animal Man Vol.1 #89) When it manifested shape, it brought the Light/Source from the words “fiat lux” which in English is said to be “let there be light.” When he said it cast a shadow, in Doom Patrol it was known as the Decreator and in JLA it was called Mageddon.

Spoiler: Boundless

• The true body of God is beyond coming and going. (Monkey Prince Vol.1 #6)
• The perfect infinite whiteness, an infinite absence beyond Maya and the veils of illusions is an experience of pure harmony and serenity compared to Buddha ascending beyond body and mind. (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #26)
• God or Divinity is pure consciousness that transcends duality and individuality. (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #41)
• Before Creation was the perfection of God as it was alone and everything. It then contracted its perfection to make room for Creation and sustain it with its divine energy. (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #85)
• Science is just a perfect dream of God that it shares with its creation. (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #86)
• God was once pure consciousness in a state of perfect grace. He existed beyond description but lived within all beings as well as above them. (Kid Eternity Vol.2 #3)
• Angels are a reflection of God's infinite glory, a hymn without a beginning or an end. (JLA Vol.1 #22)
• The primordial annihilator, the shadow of God, Mageddon is a menace from beyond the Source. (JLA Vol.1 #37)
• God has a true face, a perfection of divinity. (Detective Comics Vol.1 #961)
• The Presence first manifested in the Void, in the timeless endless beginning, a place of pure sanctity of mind and soul (JLA Vol.1 #41 & JLA Vol.1 #35)
• The Presence lives in everything even Asmodel and Hell. (JLA: Paradise Lost Vol.1 #3)
• There are no realities beyond the judgment of the Presence. (JLA Vol.1 #31)
• The Brujería's release of the Great Darkness was already within the Presence’s plan since the beginning. (Swamp Thing Vol.2 #46)
• The Spectre could have ended the war of afterlife and the darkness had it used its powers right. (Spectre Vol.2 #1)
• The Presence is the plan within all plans. The center of all centers. (Phantom Stranger Vol.4 #7 & Trinity of Sins: Phantom Stranger Vol.1 #15)
• No being is meant to possess the power got the Presence since he is everyone and everything. (Wonder Woman Vol.2 #150)
• An aspect of God’s wrath, the Spectre could tear down everything; Hell, Heaven, and everything in-between. (JLA Vol.1 #35)

Conclusion:​

• Everything in Creation is an emanation. The higher realms is considered higher than the mundane reality.
• The Hands and the Arc Angles, particularly, the latter is the first emanation of the Deep Change, where they created 1-A realm such as the Garden of Shadows. The former said to exists in as unseen beings working up a hierarchy beyond the Multiversal one.
• The Source sees all that above as just a dream in the same vein the Garden sees the Multiverse as fictional as well as the Arc Angles see it as fictional. Especially with the amount of times, Wally goes R>F. Baseline High 1-A for the Source.
• The Great Darkness an eternal nothing preceding the Light which views the Multiverse as a dream, where the Light itself is nothing but an invisible twinkle in its endless canvas. More importantly represented as the space from which the Creator could make all things possible. So High 1-A+(type 2).
• 1-A to the higher realms because why not? It's pretty obvious. Certain higher realms will get a 1-A+.
• Low 1-A Material Plane because at its furthest edges contains limitless time and space. Some Universe completely lacking time and space composition. The entirety of worlds are reflections of each other that's essentially a higher dream to the lower parts folding against their own reflection. This indicates a quantitative hierarchy that transcends each world where it seems like a dream or unreal to the higher folding of worlds, High 1-B for any destruction involving the hierarchies of worlds, and Low 1-A for the totality of the material/physical plane of existence. 1-A/1-A+ is possible but the dream within dream statement is quite vague though it was brought up often. A voting consensus can be placed here for 1-A/1-A+ or not.

Scaling:​

Low 1-A material plane: Any being that can completely destroy the entire structure and all the universes. If not, they'll just stay High 1-C for partial destruction.

1-A realms and beings: Hecate, Upside Downman, Lords of Chaos and Order, Mister Mxyzptlk, Bat-Mite, Quintessence, Hell Lords, Angels, Garden of Shadows, Empty Hand, Darkseid, and servants of the Darkness.

1-A+ realms and beings: Dreaming, Dark Multiverse, Divine Conntinnum, 5th Dimension, and 6th Dimension, Speedforce. Anyone who scales to those, the Monitors Brothers. Spectre, Dream, and Barbatos get a possibly 1-A+.

High 1-A realms and beings: The Light of Creation(Overvoid, Source, and Presence), the Unseen Council/Hands get this as well as the Arc Angles.

High 1-A+(type 2) realm and being: The Great Darkness

0: The Creator(Presence’s true form)

Voting:​

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Elizio33

Disagree:

​

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Simon Spurrier carrying the Cosmology like DeMatteis.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yep looks good

 

[HenshinIntervention]

As usual, I agree.
Will Wally get an upgrade?

 

[Elizio33]

Looks good. So to summarize, The Source and The Great Darkness would be High 1-A and the Greater Omniverse The Hands, Perpetua and the Arc Angles would be 1-A?

What about the Sixth Dimension and the Monitor Brothers ? They should also be ranked similarly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

As usual, I agree.
Will Wally get an upgrade?

1-A via amp probably.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Looks good. So to summarize, The Source and The Great Darkness would be High 1-A and the Greater Omniverse The Hands, Perpetua and the Arc Angles would be 1-A?

Yeah, Perpetua can just straight up be 1-A. Arc Angles can have a profile, if we accept 1-A+ Multiverse then they would be 1-A+. If we take the statement that there's a hierarchy of beings in the Greater Omniverse then it goes for the Hands as well to being 1-A+.

What about the Sixth Dimension and the Monitor Brothers ? They should also be ranked similarly.

Probably, they're superior or relative to the Garden.

 

[Elizio33]

The only thing I'm a little doubtful about is that the Greater Omniverse is part of The Source's dream. Although it has no name at that time, the Greater Omniverse always existed in older stories as the realm of The Source, beyond the Source Wall. The Death Metal story even mentioned The Source as existing at the center of the Greater Omniverse.

 

[Elizio33]

Yeah, Perpetua can just straight up be 1-A. Arc Angles can have a profile, if we accept 1-A+ Multiverse then they would be 1-A+. If we take the statement that there's a hierarchy of beings in the Greater Omniverse then it goes for the Hands as well to being 1-A+.

Probably, they're superior or relative to the Garden.

The story implies that there is indeed a hierarchy that eventually reaches The Source so why not?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The only thing I'm a little doubtful about is that the Greater Omniverse is part of The Source's dream. Although it has no name at that time, the Greater Omniverse always existed as the realm of The Source, beyond the Source Wall. The Death Metal story even mentioned The Source as existing at the center of the Greater Omniverse.

I've always read that the Greater Omniverse is just a creation of the Source. If the Hands created the Multiverse in the space that populates it to become the Greater Omniverse then the Source making that space for those Multiverses to be filled is reasonable to me.

The Hands arbitrate the Multiverse and Source arbitrates the Greater Omniverse is what I find to be the case. You can absolutely exist in what you create like the Voice is with Heaven, while in the Flash story they left “reality” as a whole in a place that's not a place. A fitting description that the Void being inherently empty is where the Source as just unbridled energy exists.

For a time there weren't any Multiverses so the Greater Omniverse in general being a term to denote the space where the Multiverses exist wouldn't have existed and would rather be just the Void before being filled as such description matches the Source.

The story implies that there is indeed a hierarchy that eventually reaches The Source so why not?

Right then it fits the bill and criteria for 1-A+ following that everything is an endless stream of emanation.

 

[FroYoSans]

1-A via amp probably.

I agree on him being 1-A but I do have some questions:

A. Are you saying the "amp" in question is when he exits the story?

B. It should be a permanent (until they retcon it because let's be fr, I love DC but they'll do it eventually), amp correct? Like something he always has access to?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If the Void and Greater Omniverse are one and the same then we can adjust it to dreaming the Multiverses only then.

 

[Weaver261]

I've always read that the Greater Omniverse is just a creation of the Source. If the Hands created the Multiverse in the space that populates it to become the Greater Omniverse then the Source making that space for those Multiverses to be filled is reasonable to me.

Isn't the greater omniverse just the collection of infinite multiverses? Multiverse is already on the overvoid if we count sixth dimension. The whole thing about Overvoid viewing multiverse as infinitesimal is about Local Multiverse and Bleed. I doubt Greater Omniverse qualitatively transcends Multiverse. But I agree with Greater Omniverse being the creation and emanation of the source since Greater Omniverse can be broken down to space and time.
I suggest sixth dimensional characters to have the same tier as overvoid. Or downgrade the overvoid since it's on the same plane of existence and it can be tear or rent without permission

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Isn't the greater omniverse just the collection of infinite multiverses? Multiverse is already on the overvoid if we count sixth dimension. The whole thing about Overvoid viewing multiverse as infinitesimal is about Local Multiverse and Bleed. I doubt Greater Omniverse qualitively transcends Multiverse. But I agree with Greater Omniverse being the creation and emanation of the source since Greater Omniverse can be broken down to space and time.

During Final Crisis, it meant the whole of the Multiverse, not just the Orrery and the Bleed.

The Infinite Frontier or the Omniverse is not the same thing as the Greater Omniverse. Though, it's arguable if the Source emanated the Greater Omniverse, but I'm willing to hear both sides.

 

[Elizio33]

If the Void and Greater Omniverse are one and the same then we can adjust it to dreaming the Multiverses only then.

It's possible that the Greater Omniverse is an emanation of The Source but i think it would be safer to consider the Greater Omniverse as the realm of The Source. It wouldn't change much to be honest, given that there is an infinite hierarchy of emanation that eventually reaches the Source.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It's possible that the Greater Omniverse is an emanation of The Source but i think it would be safer to consider the Greater Omniverse as the realm of The Source. This change not that much to be honest considering that there's an infinite hierarchy of emanation that eventually reaches The Source.

I'll adjust the OP then.

 

[Elizio33]

Isn't the greater omniverse just the collection of infinite multiverses? Multiverse is already on the overvoid if we count sixth dimension. The whole thing about Overvoid viewing multiverse as infinitesimal is about Local Multiverse and Bleed. I doubt Greater Omniverse qualitatively transcends Multiverse. But I agree with Greater Omniverse being the creation and emanation of the source since Greater Omniverse can be broken down to space and time.
I suggest sixth dimensional characters to have the same tier as overvoid. Or downgrade the overvoid since it's on the same plane of existence and it can be tear or rent without permission

This is the Divine Continuum which is not the same as the Greater Omniverse which exists beyond the Source Wall.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree on him being 1-A but I do have some questions:

A. Are you saying the "amp" in question is when he exits the story?

Yeah.

B. It should be a permanent (until they retcon it because let's be fr, I love DC but they'll do it eventually), amp correct? Like something he always has access to?

Given his control over the Speedforce and a possible threat to the Source, it should remain permanent until any new retcon.

 

[Weaver261]

During Final Crisis, it meant the whole of the Multiverse, not just the Orrery and the Bleed.

Do you have definite scans proving these? According to my understanding, Overvoid contained the flaw with divine metal. That divine metal jar is the same one we saw in NIL at final crisis showing orrery and bleed from which the monitors sucking dry. We can also see CAS extracting bleed from the jar to save Lois at the end.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Do you have definite scans proving these? According to my understanding, Overvoid contained the flaw with divine metal. That divine metal jar is the same one we saw in NIL at final crisis showing orrery and bleed from which the monitors sucking dry. We can also see CAS extracting bleed from the jar to save Lois at the end.

It was described in the Guidebook as everything that is not the Overvoid.

 

[Weaver261]

It was described in the Guidebook as everything that is not the Overvoid.

Which guidebook? Multiversity? or just other guidebooks like the recent ones? Just asking cuz these guidebooks tend to contradict from what's portrayed in the comics sometimes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Which guidebook? Multiversity? or just other guidebooks like the recent ones? Just asking cuz these guidebooks tend to contradict from what's portrayed in the comics sometimes.

Multiversity. The Flaw is treated as the Multiverse given that all stories exist within it.

 

[Weaver261]

Multiversity. The Flaw is treated as the Multiverse given that all stories exist within it.

It did stated, "Flaw" is everything that "Perfection" is not. But with the amount of scans showing flaw is just the local multiverse, with that alone it's not really convincing i'd say. you can also see in JLI #4, When the flaw cracked open, it bursted into a multiverse with infinite earths (universes).

 

[Elizio33]

Multiversity. The Flaw is treated as the Multiverse given that all stories exist within it.

The Flaw is the story (or push and pull of Light and Darkness) in the Multiverse. Why this Multiverse was considered so special, even to the Chronicler who has ventured into billions of dead Multiverses and seen nothing like it before? He even described this Multiverse as a cosmic fairy tale and was shocked by its stories of heroes and villains. It was basically the first Multiverse whose stories is so complex.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It did stated, "Flaw" is everything that "Perfection" is not. But with the amount of scans showing flaw is just the local multiverse, with that alone it's not really convincing i'd say. you can also see in JLI #4, When the flaw cracked open, it bursted into a multiverse with infinite earths (universes).

I don't think it contradicts anything, really. When the Multiverse was created a lot of things were still forming such as the Sphere of the Gods being powered by the mortal realms. The Monitor Sphere hadn't existed until after Crisis on Infinite Earth. The Multiverse just grew after a while.

 

[Weaver261]

I don't think it contradicts anything, really. When the Multiverse was created a lot of things were still forming such as the Sphere of the Gods being powered by the mortal realms. The Monitor Sphere hadn't existed until after Crisis on Infinite Earth. The Multiverse just grew after a while.

I do think it contradicted a lot though. Flaw is not just a simple crack anymore. The push and pull between light and dark cause the flaw to crack open effectively creating a multiverse with both elements inside it. Overvoid contained the flaw inside The Divine Metal Jar which is the same one we saw in final crisis. NIL isn't even the peak of Multiverse yet. If even NIL monitors can observe the flaw the same way overvoid does, it's hard to believe, so called "Flaw" contains more than orrery and bleed. If you have more evidences on flaw being the whole multiverse upto source wall, I'd like to see since these arguments sound so vague.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I do think it contradicted a lot though. Flaw is not just a simple crack anymore. The push and pull between light and dark cause the flaw to crack open effectively creating a multiverse with both elements inside it. Overvoid contained the flaw inside The Divine Metal Jar which is the same one we saw in final crisis. NIL isn't even the peak of Multiverse yet. If even NIL monitors can observe the flaw the same way overvoid does, it's hard to believe, so called "Flaw" contains more than orrery and bleed. If you have more evidences on flaw being the whole multiverse upto source wall, I'd like to see since these arguments sound so vague.

There are a few way of explaining it as I mentioned earlier about the growth of the Multiverse. Also, in several of these instances the “containing of the Flaw” with a concept predates most things within the Multiverse anyways. As we see in several scans that showed the Orrery with nothing but the Overvoid existing outside of it. Then later information coming from Multiversity expanded upon it to say it was the “everything” to the Overvoid “nothing.” They even called the Orrery “All Creation” in several instances.

Also, the containing only the Orrery was never even mentioned. It was just an interview on the concept of how the Flaw was contained without spreading. We saw when the Probe entered it, the first experience of “story” was there which only the Overvoid existed outside of said story which was used in several instances as creation, multiverse, and everything.

 

[Weaver261]

There are a few way of explaining it as I mentioned earlier about the growth of the Multiverse. Also, in several of these instances the “containing of the Flaw” with a concept predates most things within the Multiverse anyways. As we see in several scans that showed the Orrery with nothing but the Overvoid existing outside of it. Then later information coming from Multiversity expanded upon it to say it was the “everything” to the Overvoid “nothing.” They even called the Orrery “All Creation” in several instances.

Also, the containing only the Orrery was never even mentioned. It was just an interview on the concept of how the Flaw was contained without spreading. We saw when the Probe entered it, the first experience of “story” was there which only the Overvoid existed outside of said story which was used in several instances as creation, multiverse, and everything.

That's what I think too. It started out as a small flaw with orrery and bleed inside it. But since the flaw (orrery and bleed) is contained inside the divine metal jar, Sphere of the gods and others higher realms must be beyond that. One example is NIL monitors observing the multiverse. Containing the orrery doesn't even need to be mentioned since divine metal jar's depiction is obviously showing many earths(universes).
My original argument was about how Sixth Dimensional characters being able to access overvoid and traverse it. Overvoid can be rent without permission by the hands just as Perpetua did. Mar Novu traveled to other multiverses. With that, giving Sixth Dimensional characters just 1-A doesn't seem quite right. That's why I suggested we either downgrade Overvoid or upgrade 6D characters. We can keep Source and The Light as H1-A

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

My original argument was about how Sixth Dimensional characters being able to access overvoid and traverse it. Overvoid can be rent without permission by the hands just as Perpetua did. Mar Novu traveled to other multiverses. With that, giving Sixth Dimensional characters just 1-A doesn't seem quite right. That's why I suggested we either downgrade Overvoid or upgrade 6D characters. We can keep Source and The Light as H1-A

I've talked to Ultima about “renting from the Overvoid” and we both came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Simply, they exist within the same plane of existence, we both agreed during Death Metal it wasn't anything special.

Obviously, it changed to it being a lot more conceptual than how it was portrayed during Death Metal.

 

[Weaver261]

I've talked to Ultima about “renting from the Overvoid” and we both came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Simply, they exist within the same plane of existence, we both agreed during Death Metal it wasn't anything special.

Obviously, it changed to it being a lot more conceptual than how it was portrayed during Death Metal.

So is it possible for 1-A characters to take out pieces of H1-A framework easily? I don't know how that will work though. If you consider, 6D characters are on the same plane of existence as Overvoid, doesn't that prove my point? Even now, overvoid doesn't change that much aside from being equalized to the light and the source. I personally consider Overvoid as a lesser manifestation of the light. Sorry, if i was reading this wrong.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So is it possible for 1-A characters to take out pieces of H1-A framework easily? I don't know how that will work though. If you consider, 6D characters are on the same plane of existence as Overvoid, doesn't that prove my point? Even now, overvoid doesn't change that much aside from being equalized to the light and the source. I personally consider Overvoid as a lesser manifestation of the light. Sorry, if i was reading this wrong.

Obviously, a 1-A character cannot take a piece of High 1-A character unless the High 1-A gave them the power to do so. Even if you don't agree that the Overvoid was treated differently in Death Metal as opposed to now, it's quite obvious that the Light and Overvoid are one and the same as stated in the blog. You would have to make a CRT to change that.

 

[Elizio33]

Forgot about that part where Pepetua tore pieces from the Overvoid and shaped them into her children. That would make The Hands High 1-A too if this thread if accepted. Unless, The Source allowed her to tore pieces from its being.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Forgot about that part where Pepetua tore pieces from the Overvoid and shaped them into her children. That would make The Hands High 1-A too if this thread if accepted. Unless, The Source allowed her to tore pieces from its being.

More likely that the Source did so within the confines of what we know now. Though, if it were just Death Metal logic of the Overvoid then there's some grey areas that were left insufficient to how that feat in particular made any sense.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

OP seems fine

 

[Eseseso]

Which characters are affected by the Low 1-A/1-A section of the OP?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Which characters are affected by the Low 1-A/1-A section of the OP?

Sphere of the Gods and up. Low 1-A is guaranteed in my opinion for the realms. 1-A is a little shaky for anything lower than the 5th or 6th Dimension. However, if the Flash comics is referring to all planes being emanations then 1-A can work on the Sphere of the Gods as well.

It'd be a big help to include Animal Man and JLA which reinforces it even better, but I think we can still make it work without it.

 

[Elizio33]

More likely that the Source did so within the confines of what we know now. Though, if it were just Death Metal logic of the Overvoid then there's some grey areas that were left insufficient to how that feat in particular made any sense.

Then i see three options:

We consider Perpetua's feat to be inconsistent and remove it from her profile.

OR

We consider that this feat was possible because The Source allowed it.

Or

Nothing changes but Perpetua and The Hands become High 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

The way I see it for the hypothetical High 1-A Hands is that they are much deeper in the hierarchy of emanation that ultimately reaches Source than any being in the Multiverse and acts as the "Hands of the Source" that shape Multiverses throughout the Void beyond Creation and the Source Wall using the limitless power of The Source of All Existence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We consider Perpetua's feat to be inconsistent and remove it from her profile..

Leaning toward the first two. Though, it seemed like Perpetua did it on her own so option one made the most sense to me.

The way I see it for the hypothetical High 1-A Hands is that they are much deeper in the hierarchy of emanation that ultimately reaches Source than any being in the Multiverse and acts as the "Hands of the Source" that shape Multiverses throughout the Void beyond Creation and the Source Wall using the limitless power of The Source of All Existence.

The power and their nature must be identical for them to be High 1-A. They used powers from the Source, but it's not inherently theirs. At best, it would be “High 1-A via amps from the Source” but focusing that power in just building a 1-A+ Multiverse isn't really High 1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Imma edit the OP one more time for Low 1-A Orrery and 1-A Sphere of the Gods.