The Loli of Lolis VS The Time-Travelling, Pole-Wielding Saiyan

[ZeroTC01]

That's a phenomenal idea (What intelligence rating would that be?)

Anyway. What I mean is, I don't exactly know how to compare the two things I mentioned to each other. As in, how we'd translate Goku's comprehension to how he'd handle the info dumped on him by his precognition or info analysis on the Loli, should they even work. Just want you to touch a bit more on that.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Well, the subject on 'Gods' is pretty relative. You've seen Dragon Ball, you sure must know how much 'Gods' get shook by Goku and co.'s shenanigans, first Kami-sama, then Kaio-sama, etc. as you can see, even people like Whis were surprised on ningen's intellectual capabilities, he didn't thought it would be possible for a ningen to build a time traveling machine. They aren't that difficult to impress. Now, I know that's the 'canon' Dragon Ball and not the modified version, but I just wanted to have it there, because 'Gods' not being able to understand it doesn't mean much by itself, I need to know how smart they really are...

Moving on, the "Quantum, Temporal and Astral Physics" well... it depends on how complex they really were. The people The LoliÔäó has met before were able to understand the many systems behind the worlds I've written about earlier and yet they find it quite difficult to properly handle this child. Kami and Ningen alike, from the many worldly ordeals attributed to this vessel. No one so far has managed to put up a lasting fight against him, despite their vast knowledge on these subjects.

In other words, instead of doing a direct comparison, I did a curve and related them to what I've seen before, the people who had similar capabilities of reason, as to understand 'super-complex' stuff. It didn't really help them THAT much in a combat. It won't be of much use unless, of course, you know how to exploit them and being aware of the many mechanisms behind each attack can be quite helpful as well. Knowledge over quantum fluctuations could help to figure out the nature behind the loli's 'phantoms' but then again, it didn't work out too well and the loli sure knows how to exploit, even a simple pebble on the floor is lethal.

That is why I said it could potentially overwhelm Goku, as it's one step ahead of simply 'learning' how do they work. Theory vs. Practice. The fact he did it 'overnight' is dangerous too, because that's honestly hell-a-lot of time, specially when we're talking about doing it in the heat of combat as Goku will be seeing brand-new stuff such as the ontological (with different shades of dialetheism) attacks his opponent has.

 

[Alexcar3000]

a a a

 

[ZeroTC01]

I can't find anything from the modified Dragon Ball boosting the Kaioshins' intelligence above Gifted/Very High. Presumably, it'd be higher than the canon since they'd have great knowledge on entire Magniverses and infinite-dimensional stuff, but still.

It's a problematic comparison, and it's made harder by the fact that Goku's the most "combat-ready", intuitive and experienced Goku out of any other throughout infinite Magniverses. Who knows what those ones have been through/have been exposed to both in general situations and in the heat of combat? There are literally infinite upon infinite possibilities and Gokus, which I'm confident would mean it's more than likely they have been exposed to and has handled highly disorientating and overwhelming stuff, especially when you have Supergenius enemies capable of coming up with all sorts of nonsense via the use of numerous abilities.

Sure, it doesn't necessarily mean Xeno Goku himself has been through them, but it should mean him being able to actually handle them in the heat of battle via him being superior to infinite versions of himself in intuition and combat.

 

[ZeroTC01]

That's a phenomenal idea (What intelligence rating would that be?)

^^^^^^

 

[Alexcar3000]

Sorry, I was sleeping uWU;;

I argued about it being overwhelming because it is essentially seeing endless phantoms of actions that can happen and cannot be happen due to the future-based precognition (not to mention the past phantoms differ from future ones...) whilist trying to focus on the ones that could happen and could not happen and what is actually happening, which are outside of the scope of regular possibility and more on the undetermined aside. It would essentially be like fighting those infinite^infinite versions simultaneously and then some boys outside the infinite^infinite equation pop-up sometimes.

However, if this Goku is the best outcome out of all possible Goku's combat-smarts (which tbh I didn't know or may have forgotten), then I could give him the benefit of the doubt and say he would be able to at least handle the phantoms. That leaves us out with two stupidly combat-smarties duking it out, though each having entirely distinct combat methods (well, outside fisting each other). However, there are many weirder things the loli can do, some of which Goku hasn't met yet, like the ontological shenanigans, so he can't lower his guard just yet!

The 'Intelligence' rating... ? Let me se... If you're able to keep up with both me and Goku's extensive shenanigans, without having your head immediately implode on itself, then I'd say at least as smart as both of us when it comes to combat. Since, well, you are keeping with with our fight, don't ya? Ow< ~ ☆

 

[ZeroTC01]

Alright, I'm good with the intelligence part too.

I think you can continue covering the fight.

 

[Alexcar3000]

It's your turnnn

 

[ZeroTC01]

Nani do you mean??? ƒºÉ

 

[Alexcar3000]

I already gave my points about loli's stuff, I want to hear your thoughts and possible counters!

 

[ZeroTC01]

Oh well, I'll see what I has.

Just gimme a bit. Grandma back from her travels and stuff, so you know how families are in such occasions.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Ok ie uwU

 

[ZeroTC01]

I'll just share my thoughts on these for now.

• "Attack Reflection: Alright, this one may work against the loli (at least initially, what he later does aren't even registered as 'attacks' as mentioned in the 'AP' section), as his attacks would be read as 'Physical', 'Psychological', 'Spiritual' and 'Conceptual', but that's not enough to warrant a win, specially when the loli has his own bullshit version in the form of SAVE and LOAD (that lacks filter)."

So, what're you implying exactly? If it's that the non-attacks you mentioned wouldn't be reflected, I'd argue otherwise. Not only can these things be reflected by the ability anyway, as mentioned in the profile, but I doubt they need to register as attacks either. If they're a, well, thing posing a threat to Xeno Goku AND they fall under the listed categories in the powers and abilities list, they should be reflectable.

• "Fate Manip: Alright. This one isn't going to be effective against the loli. Not only because the general abstract idea in itself (the pure idea / concept instead of the causal-based probable outcomes you see in quantum branches / timelines on the many-worlds interpretation or "buttefly effect") of a pre-existing course of events written down / hardwired onto reality / the world gets twisted and superseded passively via Determination and Killing Intent...
  
  [DT~ K.I.: Selectively rejects changes made onto and generated by, the world, less akin to "pulling the strings" and more akin to climbing up a waterfall contrary to the water flow and against the wishes of gravity, getting wet with only the droplets of water containing the desired effect, usually for 'defensive' purposes in regards to Determination and for 'offensive' purposes regarding Killing Intent; should no droplets of water containing said desire exist, with no single molecular re-arranging of said droplets possibly matching the contents (basically, not existing at all / null), then the 'impossible' events turn up, which are overwhelminly difficult for reality / the world to properly 'read' the input, creating 'glitches.']
  
  ... but also the ones regarding Probability (now being of the quantum branches or timelines kind), creating what are known as 'phantoms' where said space of probability bleeds into the actual occupied space (and time; of any number of dimensions; of any alternate positions) which makes the past, present and future (whatever they may be) being undetermined despite it actually happening (for the perspective of the world AKA being a fact / truth)...
  
  ... and due to, again, 'Destiny' or 'Fate' being part of the Philosophy of the World and Worldly Laws, where even having all of reality / the world itself operating under Deterministism... would simply be rendered as an 'ITEM' via SAVE and LOAD, as invalid, as something vague, something of trivial matter, or as a null due to what I previously said on the AP section...
  
  ... luckily enough for Goku, he also has very strong resistances agains fate manip and reality has been capped in a certain way that it won't be as scary either, so let's say both their fate manipulations cancel each other out! "

I agree.

• Sealing and BFR: No one has attempted to seal the loli away, though I'm not sure how effective would be anti-sealing / bfr resistence and anti-dimensional travel methods to seal, there are ways to prevent this from happening. So, there's a hit-or-miss factor to this. I may need my memory refreshed on the method of sealing Goku has because I have forgotten the specifics of it. The loli has the means of eventually busting his way out if the zone he was bfr / sealed to is considered a world on its own.

He either seals his opponent in any physical container, like the Mafuba seal or "an electrical rice cooker", as well as the Dragon Balls or a pocket reality/other dimension of his creation/an already existing one. Evidently, only the latter would be considered a world of its own, and that... break-out-off-able... albeit Goku can manipulate the quantum make-up of them if that helps at all. The sealing abilities are basically a big wave that he fires out, albeit there's a struggle that may occur and the opponent may or may not be able to escape from the regular Mafuba. However, with the Divine Mafuba and the nameless technique, a resistance is strictly needed to survive. Forms of DT, Time Travel, or Teleportation are null-and-void when trapped by this.

• "Hakai: As mentioned in the 'AP' sections, dimensionality and the properties of erasure are something the loli has stupidly complex methods of going around them. If you remove the loli from dimensionality, it would assign the property of being adimensional, but then, 'erasing' him from there could be interpreted in either being erased from dimensionality itself OR being denied its adimensional properties, but that's not at all enough to get rid of him, I'm afraid. The Numidium's Zero-Sum that denies others of their True-Godly could to absolutely nothing against the loli, as we've concluded in the Discord. Not to mention he's perfectly fine as something that doesn't exist and exists simultaneously, dimensional or not. The paradoxical, contradicting properties can easily be patched up as well, so even if it works, he would come back from it, I mean, Goku can also come back from it, and I don't think Goku can resist a null-value erasure like the loli has (and can just as easily inflict)... or can he? owo"

Would resisting the Hakai qualify for resisting the LoliÔäó's erasure? Also, I argue Shenron Mode could come into play here. Super Shenron is capable of practically anything within the realm of his power, as long as Goku knows what to wish for/what to do, so seeing as though he's superior to Goku here by a margin that's supposedly equal to Zeno, he could potentially pull some useful forkery off.

• "Conceptual Manip and Type 2 Abstract Existence Neg: Man, these have barely any use against the loli, who can take attacks that jeopardize the concept of his very own self like a regular punch to the face. Not to mention the abstract existence of a broken vessel goes way beyond type 2, since conceptuality is irrelevant and only the world has a use of it, and even then, it has great difficulty being aware of what the hell is even happening, with or without the reality cap."

I agree.

• "Miracle CI, Resistances, Shenron Mode, Rege, Immortality, Acausality Negation, Toon Force, 4th Wall Breaking, Plot Destruction: They both counter the heck out of each other in a back-to-back fashion. The Loli has bs resistances, probability shenanigans, stupid immortality, reality warping based on his own perception that could be mistaken for toon force due to the dumb things that happens with it, too many acausalities and beat the shit out of the plot. So, they're even on that regard, it seems."

Nothing to say here. Already mentioned Shenron Mode.

 

[Alexcar3000]

You didn't need to post all the things I wrote dsajgdisao

• Attack Reflection: So, what're you implying exactly? If it's that the non-attacks you mentioned wouldn't be reflected, I'd argue otherwise. Not only can these things be reflected by the ability anyway, as mentioned in the profile, but I doubt they need to register as attacks either. If they're a, well, thing posing a threat to Xeno Goku AND they fall under the listed categories in the powers and abilities list, they should be reflectable.

Ah, not at all. I am not talking about a 'thing' either, due to what I said in the AP section, it doesn't fall under any category the world (all conception) can register, transgressesing nonduality and manifesting ontological paradoxes that have a chaotic logical connection, the act of 'reflecting' would be a 1 and 'not reflecting' would be a -1... the "attack" would be Ôêà.

The Loli's attack would be comparable to, having the entire world cease to exist, where the concept of being hurt, being damaged, etc. are all 0, and still being "hit" by an unknown from which nothing at all could be compared to as nothing else exists. As such, they aren't physical, they aren't void, they 'aren't' and vaguely even 'aren't' at that.

This is the "vagueness" and part of the "null-value erasure" I've been talking about (the later has been nerfed in this match-up due to the reality cap hindering some haxes, making it being similar to a confused calculator or an indecisive student answering an exam: "... 1? nono, it is a -1! .... not it's actually...").

Since it lacks filtering, all aspects of Goku's being, including the vagueness between the boundaries of conception (i.e.: where does 'physicality' stop and where does 'non-physicality' start) and the given definitions for them which back up and press the boundaries together (the conceptually-attributing defintion of 'physicality' and 'non-physicality'). The same goes for the nature of the "attacks" or "actions" the loli does.

• Sealing and BFR: He either seals his opponent in any physical container, like the Mafuba seal or "an electrical rice cooker", as well as the Dragon Balls or a pocket reality/other dimension of his creation/an already existing one. Evidently, only the latter would be considered a world of its own, and that... break-out-off-able... albeit Goku can manipulate the quantum make-up of them if that helps at all. The sealing abilities are basically a big wave that he fires out, albeit there's a struggle that may occur and the opponent may or may not be able to escape from the regular Mafuba. However, with the Divine Mafuba and the nameless technique, a resistance is strictly needed to survive. Forms of DT, Time Travel, or Teleportation are null-and-void when trapped by this.

He hasn't shown (because no one has been able to... well, because no one has even tried) seal him away, and RESETs would be akin to a form of bfr but... if the containers said bfr/sealing could be said to be alternate worlds (even if we are talking about a pocket dimension in the form of an object, a rice cooker in this case), then he could break his way out. It's not that he's stepping away from them, he's tearing them up from the inside. Has this been attempted before? Of course, this can greatly hinder him if Goku starts out with this, since the loli is starting out without much of his high-level, multi-formal hax, but he could eventually get out if that's the case.

Not sure what are the rules of 'time trapped/incapacitated' when it comes to BFR/Sealing in a match-up... sorry if my response is lackluster, but I'm really unfamiliar with how BFR/Sealing works... similar to how you were being iffy about the "Intelligence" part... How could you compare the world and the seal... I mean, the world (AKA the reality cap in this match-up) itself barely contains him due to the vagueness, hm...

• Hakai: Would resisting the Hakai qualify for resisting the LoliÔäó's erasure? Also, I argue Shenron Mode could come into play here. Super Shenron is capable of practically anything within the realm of his power, as long as Goku knows what to wish for/what to do, so seeing as though he's superior to Goku here by a margin that's supposedly equal to Zeno, he could potentially pull some useful forkery off.

As explained above, there is a sharp difference between being erased after being removed from dimensionality, and the vagueness and absolute null. The former is stable and functional under the conceptual-dimensional boundaries of the world and the latter is something not even the world knows about. Initially, if you asked the world about it, it would vaguely state to be dimensional or be adimensional (vagueness), but then it wouldn't even know, and could not percieve it (null). You would need hax on the level of transduality of type 2 (due to the cap reality has in this match-up) to be able to function enough to come back as vagueness or null. Since the loli is a vessel, it already has an abstract mechanism that enables it to persist like this, specially with Determination and Killing Intent (something as of now seemingly encompassed by Will).

Note: I want to know more about the role of Super Shenron and Zeno in this match-up though. Since reality has been given a cap, how could this affect Super Shenron's 'in the realm of his power' abilities. The Loli has it so it can't go that much beyond the current world reality, and vagueness should be the cap instead of the full-on capacities for null, for example (there's multiple ways of interpreting a "null" and the higher-ends the loli has goes by the multi-formalism that makes absolute infinity muda muda muda... so that's not allowed lmao).

Note 2: I have a question for you, the same one that makes me iffy about the usefulness of sealing/bfr: What's so different between breaking the boundaries of the world and breaking a seal? The world itself would be limiting you in a way to stay inside of it or you completely cease to exist as all conception is given inside of it. As the world-transgressing capabilities of the loli were nerfed for the match-up, the 'cap' changes and this could be a way of victory if the loli can't tear the alternate world apart, since it would be an equal that of the currelt reality they're fighting. The only saving grace would be SAVE and LOAD if that were the case. Then again, I'm inexperienced behind the mechanics of BFR/Sealing... qwqq

 

[ZeroTC01]

swetfdsadfvgbfth

I'll have to reply to this later. I needs to go to bed soon, so I can't reply now In fact, I was too lazy to finish Cell's Mega-Composite profile since the damn summary was left

Sorry our replies being far apart, but that's that I guess.

 

[Alexcar3000]

o ki uwu;;

 

[ZeroTC01]

Attack Reflection

Hah! Not doing it twice. Anyway, now that you clarified it, yeah. This is something Goku has no counter to. He would certainly be vulnerable to such "attacks".

Sealing, Note 2 and BFR

Sealing can be a tad bit confusing. Basically, let's say you get sealed by the Mafuba. You're essentially stuck in whatever you're sealed in with no means of doing anything. DT, Teleportation, Time Travel, hax, breaking out, etc. For some reason, ya just... can't do that anymore. It's as if you're knocked out, transmuted into some green demon stuff and power nulled at the same time, but it's evidently something else considering numerous characters that resist those things still get trapped in seals for years. I mean, I don't have anything to really translate it to. It's sealing XD. You may be easily capable of breaking through the world or tearing it apart, but you're for some reason left helpless and incapable of it while in a seal.

BFR is just Teleportation (spatial, temporal, etc.) against your will. You can easily come back from this.

Hakai

Ah. So this doesn't seem like something Goku has anything to deal with either. Neither should Super Shenron, in fact. He's capable of granting any wish within the realm of his existence, and that would involve all sorts of different forces and aspects of reality potentially being altered. Tori-Bot can deal with things like what you mentioned, but he has nothing to do with this fight. Neither does Genesis Zeno (who would end up accidentally killing Goku should he be summoned anyways).

 

[Alexcar3000]

aa aa sorry i didn't see ittt

 

[Alexcar3000]

So the thing we have to see now is the sealing. I still think it won't be effective the loli. If it's about power-null / statistics modification / status effect inducement, there's a ton of resistance against such as when the FIGHT commands were messed with and similar to Asriel's immense pressure causing the opponent unable to take their turns.


If it restricts one's more fundamental components, such as their body, mind, soul, etc. to make then unable to escape, then thanks to the nature of the vessel being able withstand breaking its components and 'patch' them up. If it is a combination of all of the above and considered as an alternate world, there's still the SAVE and LOAD functionality which is dislocated from the loli himself and the world he resides, so it could... for a lack of a better term, 'spawn' the loli again.


This sealing technique, based on the little information I know and the information you've told me, is able to hinder the loli at the start but he could potentially find a way to get around it, even if it means killing himself.

 

[KingPin0422]

With all of the arguments presented in this thread so far, my vote is going to the loli.

 

[Alexcar3000]

-high pitched screaming-

 

[Twilly18]

My vote goes to Alex loli.

 

[Alexcar3000]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Shota FRA.

No, I refuse to call you a loli.

 

[Christian_Higdon]

Loli FRA.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Y o u c a n ' t d e n y t h e l o l i .

 

[Christian_Higdon]

I think the loli's angery.

 

[Alexcar3000]

- screa mo -

 

[ZeroTC01]

5 votes including me own.

About time Goku got his ass kicked

 

[Alexcar3000]

uwoh

 

[ZeroTC01]

Aren't we, ya know, adding this? Also,

Damn it, Alex! How... or more like, why do you hold off on voting in these situations? Meanwhile, ovo intensifies

 

[Alexcar3000]

I thought you were gonna add them...