The Glory (Doctor Who) downgrade?

[Jockey-1337]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/doctor-who-feats-and-source-thread.298198/#post-14425204


This quote "vortex made up of an infinite number of well, levels for want of a better description" is about TIME VORTEX which is below Six-Fold Realm which is 11-dimensional. So DW omniverse is just 11 dimensional. Glory is 11-dimensional then.


You may also check next quotes:

1) "The Lampreys live in the Time Vortex"

2) "A Lamprey is put on omniversal level threat in this quote. "

3) "Lampreys can devour whole multiverses, making them Chronovores on steroids.

A Lamprey declares the Omniverse its restaurant"


^ Same source. It clearly puts top tier DW forces at 11-dimensional level.

 

[Jockey-1337]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0302131v1.pdf


Also time vortex should be just a Type-3 multiverse or "many worlds"

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I will ask Azathoth about this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If there are no other similar statements to solidify its power, the Glory would likely have to be moved to regular 1-B.

For its justification, something along the lines of "Unfathomably superior to the Grace, Holds the entire omniverse together, of which even the Grace can see only their relatively localized part".

 

[Antvasima]

Not High 1-C then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Guardians are High 1-C, as they exist as the embodiment and at the pinnacle of an 11-dimensional space.

The are infinitely inferior to the Grace, who are beyond their scope entirely and govern them with complete authority, thus Low 1-B.

The Grace are likely the top dogs of the generalized Doctor Who "multiverse", but that multiverse is supposed to be just one of a countless number of varying structures held together by the Glory, and an infinitely small drop of the "omniversal spectrum" it holds together.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but how do we synchronise that with the information in the initial post?

 

[Jockey-1337]

So the Guardians = High 1-C, the Grace = Low 1-B, the Glory 1-B, right?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Jockey

Yeah.

@Ant

It already does synchronise. The Guardians that encompass the overall main verse and its 11-dimensional structure. The Grace completely transcend them, and the Grace's corner of the "Omniverse" is only an infinitely small portion of what the Glory holds together.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but you nevertheless think that we should adjust the Glory from High 1-B to regular 1-B?

Anyway, if you can provide a good explanation for the new tier within the page, I suppose that you can change the page. I just hope that there will be no trouble down the line because of it.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Also, why 1-B, not Low 1-B?

Small part of 3d space is a part of 3d space. 12-dimensional Grace would be a part of 12-dimensional Glory, why not?

 

[Jockey-1337]

Also, are there any proofs that Glory > Grace?

We know Glory is "omniversal" but Guardians/Six Fold God was also called "omniversal".

'There are some powers in the omniverse that can do anything. The

Guardians, for example. The only things that bind them are codes of conduct, civil laws designed to give sentient races some means of maintaining a stable existence. I sometimes wonder if that's the reason the Time Lords are so introverted. . . they've bargained with creatures who could pull the arms off spiral galaxies.'


They are just agents of the Grace who exist "outside of space and time".


http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Grace

The Grace were Great Old Ones that existed in a state of non-existence outside of time and space.


May be there is a similar situation to LT & Oblivion? Oblivion exists outside of space-time also.


Also, it may be interesting to summon DarkLK. I wonder what he thinks about "state of non-existence outside of time and space." It sounds like 1-A because it is not just higher dimensional existence but existence outside of existence.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Abby stated they were too big to squeeze into ordinary time and space. (AUDIO: The Flood)


Wow

 

[BlaLig]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0302131v1.pdfAlso time vortex should be just a Type-3 multiverse or "many worlds"

Level III Multiverse actually had to have Hilbert Space (aka infinite dimensions) for it to work. So if time vortex have many Level III Multiverse characteristics, it should have infinite dimensions too (if it follows modern physics that is).

What doesn't guarantee infinite dimensions is actually just Level II and Level I Multiverse.


And I'm not sure if 'too big to squeeze into ordinary spacetime' and 'outside spacetime' is sufficient to be 1-A. And 'Omniversal', huh? Molecule Man could squeeze Omniverse in a box. And he isn't Tier 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

We do not use the term Omniverse. In addition, Al Ewing has explicitly stated that he simply uses it as a synonym for a regular multiverse.

 

[Jockey-1337]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0302131v1.pdfAlso time vortex should be just a Type-3 multiverse or "many worlds"

Level III Multiverse actually had to have Hilbert Space (aka infinite dimensions) for it to work. So if time vortex have many Level III Multiverse characteristics, it should have infinite dimensions too (if it follows modern physics that is).
What doesn't guarantee infinite dimensions is actually just Level II and Level I Multiverse.


And I'm not sure if 'too big to squeeze into ordinary spacetime' and 'outside spacetime' is sufficient to be 1-A. And 'Omniversal', huh? Molecule Man could squeeze Omniverse in a box. And he isn't Tier 1-A.

Time Vortex is 5-dimensional iirc. Six Fold Realm includes 6-11 dimensional spaces.

 

[TakatoBlue]

Trying to explain the DW multiverse ... I'll use Tardis Wikia and The Glorious Dead comic as sources.

For what I understood, there's a regular multiversal realm with 11 dimensions. The one that we know.

However, as Esterath said, the Doctor, despite he has crossed through some dimensions, he had never left that regular multiverse.

http://www.idoc.co/files/e567b1d706e18f6937-0.jpg

The Time Vortex is not the 4th dimensional plane, neither the 5th. It's a dimensional plane that underlies and connect space, time and the other 11 dimensions. (Something similar to the Void, maybe?).

Ôû║ Accordding to Tardis Wikia, about the Time Vortex ( http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Vortex ) :

The Space/Time Vortex exists outside of any normal frame of reference. Within it, light, darkness, matter and energy all blend, divide, shift and change. It underlies the whole of Creation, touching the normal Universe only slightly. Its pathways are twisted, unstable and hard to follow. A journey through these strange dimensions might take a moment and carry a traveller a million years and a billion light years from his/her/its origin. Alternatively, a journey of months in the Vortex might end in a shift of six feet and ten days in conventional space. Without being able to calculate the pathways, there was simply no telling.The Chase


Ôû║ Oh, and "Creation", means the multiversal realm, however, according to our Tiering System ( https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System ), this Multiversal Realm is a High Complex Multiverse.

A multiverse was a grouping of parallel universes. The omniverse was comprised of every multiverse. Esterath told the Eighth Doctor that in all his past travels across dimensional planes he had never left his own multiversal realm. Having been allowed to experience the lives as his alternate selves, the Doctor realised that together they comprised one being. (COMIC: The Glorious Dead) It was also known as reality (TV: Journey's End) and creation; (TV: The End of Time) the empty spaces between the universes was known as the Void. (TV: Army of Ghosts). SOURCE: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Multiverse


The omniverse or the all was the totality of all of existence, every individual multiverse. The time vortex of the Doctor's own multiverse merged with the omniversal spectrum at the Glory, a device at the spectrum's focal point that maintained the structure of the omniverse as long as there was a living consciousness to direct it. (COMIC: The Glorious Dead) SOURCE: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Omniverse


Ôû║ And about the Lampreys, by what I had read,they're just multiversal level. But it could be any level between Multiverse Level and High-Complex Multiverse level. Or above, they're said capable of move between dimensional planes, so, they could be even Hyperversal's.

The omniverse consisted of infinite dimensions, and Lampreys were capable of devouring entire multiverses within the omniverse. (PROSE: Spiral Scratch) SOURCE: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Omniverse

Ôû║ Here, now according to the Doctor Who Respect Thread about the Lampreys, https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/doctor-who-feats-and-source-thread.298198/#post-14425204 :

Lampreys multiversal

The Doctor never took his eye off the creature in front of

them as it rocked from side to side, drinking in the air. A

Lamprey. Creatures that exist within the space-time vortex, able

to co-exist in multiple locations at once but feeding off chronon

energy.' He hugged Kina tighter, addressing the Lamprey. 'How

did you get onto a three-dimensional world?'

'My secret. Our secret. But we're here now, all across all time

and space.'

'All of time and space,' corrected Melanie, hoping humour

was a useful defence. 'You aliens can never quite master syntax.'

The Doctor shook his head. 'Sadly, it's probably telling the

truth Melanie. All time and all space. All universes, parallel

realities, everything. Back home, my people spent millennia

studying these creatures, trying to find a way to keep them

locked away from pure existence.'

'Why? What do they do?'

'Devour time. There's nothing they like more than to

completely extinguish an entire multiverse of realities just to

feed.'


About Lamprey being possible hyperversal:

If, however, these creatures, which have reportedly been observed and

described as Lampreys due to their appearance, do exist, the theoretical

power they must possess is beyond measure as well. Some theories suggest

that these Lampreys can cross from one plane of existence, or reality even, at

will. If one accepts the existence of parallel realities, and there is sufficient

proof of this in a number of field researches found in the APC Network

records, then the fact that these creatures can cross in and out is both exciting

and worrying. For if breaches were to occur, if the Spiral were to become

damaged in some way and allow leakage between these realities, all of

creation could descend into chaos and ultimately only the Lampreys would

survive. If they feed, as hypothesised above, on temporal energy, then the

energy accessible to them within the myriad realities created every nanosecond

by chaos and chance would supply them with nourishment for, in theory,

eternity.


Conclusion:

Ôû║ The Glory is High-1B

Ôû║ Lampreys are something between 2-B and 1-B

Ôû║ The Grace stills At least Low 1-B

 

[TakatoBlue]

I hope that all makes some sense. Even I find it difficult to understand what I said above. And it was just a summary. Whoniverse is even more complex than that.

 

[TakatoBlue]

Oh, and I believe that the "Omniverse" in Doctor Who means the 1st situation from our Omniverse page. As we can see "our real world" in The Glory scan, and even a Spider-Man comic there. (At the time, Marvel still had rights over Doctor Who franchise)


The Glory > Marvel Universe

(The Glory > Marvel Comics multiversal realm)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omniverse

But we can consider just an infinite amount of general dimensions and multiversal realms.

 

[TakatoBlue]

Oh, and if I can make it here, can I ask for a little change in the Daleks page?

It's about the Reality Bomb:

Across the entire universe, never stopping, never faltering, never fading. People and planets and stars will become dust. And the dust will become atoms and the atoms will become... nothing. And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself! - Davros

Basically, it would break through the entire regular Multiverse Realm.

It's an at least 11-dimensional bomb.


Now, according to Tardis Wikia: Once the weapon penetrated the time rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade, it would spread into every parallel universe and alternate dimension (even the Void) as well. The reality bomb was planned to destroy all other forms of life in every universe — except for the Daleks, allowing for them to be only race in all of existence.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_Bomb

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I suppose that seems reliable. So the Glory should stay at High 1-B, and the Dalek Reality Bomb be placed at High 1-C?

What do you thimk Azathoth?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Dimension in the context of the Reality Bomb almost certainly meant parallel universes, as there is no chance that the Reality Bomb would pose any sort of threat to a plane of existence as high as that the Guardians reside on, considering the Time Lord and Daleks have always been portrayed as less than nothing compared to them, viewing them as all powerful.

The Glory remaining High 1-B based on the possibility of endless dimensions seems fine, though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Antvasima]

However, we obviously cannot cross-continuity scale the Glory from Marvel Comics, simply because Spider-Man was included in the scan. We have rules against that sort of thing, and can only go by what has been explicitly spelled out concerning the extent of the "omniverse" term for every individual instance.

 

[Jockey-1337]

@Takato

"The Time Vortex is not the 4th dimensional plane, neither the 5th. It's a dimensional plane that underlies and connect space, time and the other 11 dimensions. (Something similar to the Void, maybe?)."


Time Vortex is 5-dimensional:

Time Lords were stated to be responsible for the creation of the Time Vortex, which is an infinite realm spanning entire multiverse(s) and connecting all points in time and space:

╩╗I╩╝m not sure about the technicalities. In layman╩╝s terms the TARDIS removes itself from Minkowski space, then integrates itself into a fifth dimension. It travels through something called the Vortex, a transdimensional spiral built by the Doctor╩╝s people which encompasses all points in space and time. Then, the TARDIS just reorientates itself at the other end, and reestablishes a plasmic real-world interface.╩╝


But they also created Lampreys (omniversal threats):

Their experiments with the Vortex were stated to be responsible for the creation of the multiverses in the bigger whoverse cosmology:

Of course, the theory of parallel universes, multiverses and even an omniverse was nothing new. Theories had abounded ever since work into the origins of the Lampreys had begun thousands of years ago back home. Of course, it was a chickenand-egg situation ― did the Lampreys exist because of the multiverses or did the multiverses come into existence because the Time Lords accidentally created them whilst meddling with the Lampreys' unique existence within the spirals of the vortex.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am not knowledgeable enough about this to make a good evaluation. Sorry. Maybe Azathoth can help?

 

[Kerwin0831]

@TakatoBlue @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

May I please ask an honest question regarding about the Grace? I thought that the DW continuity only has 11 dimensional planes, how was it that the Grace is beyond 27 dimensional plane? I tried searching for it but I cant find the answer.

 

[TakatoBlue]

@TakatoBlue @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot
May I please ask an honest question regarding about the Grace? I thought that the DW continuity only has 11 dimensional planes, how was it that the Grace is beyond 27 dimensional plane? I tried searching for it but I cant find the answer.

I'm not sure, but in the book 12 Doctors, 12 Stories (2013), from various authors, like Holy Black (Lucifer) and Neil Gaiman (Sandman), in the story of the 9th Doctor, the Doctor sent his enemy to the 26th dimension, IIRC.

 

[Antvasima]

I vaguely recall that there were 27-dimensional beings from a previous creation, and that the Grace was more powerful.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I vaguely recall that there were 27-dimensional beings from a previous creation, and that the Grace was more powerful.

Yeah. Saraquazel, who was from the following creation, was 27-dimensional, and was squeezed to a "paltry 11" being forced into the current one. Even in this infinitely restricted state, he was still superior to The Great Intelligence before the two beings fused (so there was a pretty clear display of "the next iteration of the universe is vastly superior to the current one and the Great Old Ones"), but the Grace were described as being outside all iterations of creation, iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the explanation. Since this is an old thread, I will close it.