The End of All Illusions 1.5/2 (Instant Death Cosmology Downgrade)

[SweetDao]

I'm backkkkkkkkkkkk.
​

I figured we should do stuff step by step. As such, there is still another revision planned after this one. Please do stay civil and feel free to comment if you have any issue with my explanation or if you need more information.

For this thread, I've used scenes from another novel from the author called "The Demon King is Unbeatable" which is canon to the larger verse as a whole. Since it is an untranslated novel, I've asked @Mugen_no_Setsuna to translate some important scenes to get a better version than MTL, however not all quotes are translated. As such, I've clarified whenever a translation what by a human or through MTL.

1. Celestial Foundation

Currently, Celestial Foundations are accepted as 2-B structure for encompassing multiple timelines within itself. Feel free to read the explanation available here.
Furthermore, they are considered at least universe-sized because they are called universes directly, among other things.

The problem here is on two sides, so let's begin with the most important one. The Celestial Foundations doesn't encompass "everything" on a conceptual level.

Celestial Foundations are the "plates" on which the numerous things that make the worlds, alongside intelligent life forms, exist. The world (i.e. living space) on top of the Celestial Foundation can take various forms, such as space existing on top of it or land and seas instead. Similarly, multiple Celestial Foundations can exist within a single canopy.

Three elements within the "world" are considered conceptual. Those elements are the Celestial Foundation, the Canopy, and the Celestial Axis. The rest is physically present within the world, such as the lands and sea, space, intelligent life, ...

As you can see, each Celestial Foundation doesn't have their own "concept of time and space", since only the Celestial Foundation (plates), The Canopy (protection) and Celestial Axis (conceptual tube used for traveling) are conceptual, the rest of the world is very much physical.

However, they may have a different flow of time depending on the celestial foundation.

As for the second problem. The Celestial Foundations aren't universe-sized, at all.

The size of a Celestial Foundation, alongside the canopy that encompasses said Celestial Foundation, may vary. The Celestial Foundation of the Earth (i.e. Yogiri's homeworld) solely encompasses a solar system, with the canopy closing off the world just a bit after Pluto. Meanwhile, the Celestial Foundation of The Demon King was stated as "small" compared to Yogiri's, although it is noted that the Great Celestial Foundation is bigger than planet Earth. As such, without further information, alongside the fact that Yogiri's is considered a "huge" one, we can assert that it can at least reach solar system in terms of size. Similarly, in Mitsuki's Celestial Foundation (at least the one he took over), the concept of "spaceships" doesn't exist as a result of space (i.e. outer space) not existing, severely limiting its size as a result.

Given the evidence, Celestial Foundations can't be considered universal structure or space-time continuum (At least through our standards). We can probably treat them as either pocket realities or locations within space distant from one another. Whatever is fine by me.

As such, they should be downgraded to "Varies, Solar System for the huge ones"

2. The Abyss.

In this thread, it was accepted that the Abyss should be "possibly Low 1-C" due to it possibly having a universal size. Well, it should go, since the Celestial Foundation of Yogiri is stated to only be Solar System in size.

I suggest putting The Abyss as "Unknown".

3. The Sea

Since there exist at least more than ten thousand Celestial Foundations within the Sea, we can safely put the Sea at "At least Multi Solar-System".

Obviously, someone will argue that "The Sea was stated to be an infinite space" and as such, High Universal would be a better rating for it, but this isn't the case.

You see, infinity can't exist physically, what is infinite is in fact only what is vast enough that it appears as infinite, but the thing itself isn't.

So, no, it can't be infinite, although perhaps a "likely higher" rating could be implemented.

-----
That's it for now.

Agree: KingNanaya, Korf3ll, Dark_Soul20189, Mugen_no_Setsuna, Homie890, Ovy7, Astral_Trinity439, Voidnether, BoastJr, ProfectusInfinity, Da3ggman, Meli_Tempest, Railgun, Grabbing_dragon, Planck69, Theglassman12,

Disagree: Elizhaa

Neutral: LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[Korf3ll]

I'm backkkkkkkkkkkk.
​

I figured we should do stuff step by step. As such, there is still another revision planned after this one. Please do stay civil and feel free to comment if you have any issue with my explanation or if you need more information.

For this thread, I've used scenes from another novel from the author called "The Demon King is Unbeatable" which is canon to the larger verse as a whole. Since it is an untranslated novel, I've asked @Mugen_no_Setsuna to translate some important scenes to get a better version than MTL, however not all quotes are translated. As such, I've clarified whenever a translation what by a human or through MTL.

1. Celestial Foundation

Currently, Celestial Foundations are accepted as 2-B structure for encompassing multiple timelines within itself. Feel free to read the explanation available here.
Furthermore, they are considered at least universe-sized because they are called universes directly, among other things.

The problem here is on two sides, so let's begin with the most important one. The Celestial Foundations doesn't encompass "everything" on a conceptual level.


As you can see, each Celestial Foundation doesn't have their own "concept of time and space", since only the Celestial Foundation (plates), The Canopy (protection) and Celestial Axis (conceptual tube used for traveling) are conceptual, the rest of the world is very much physical.

However, they may have a different flow of time depending on the celestial foundation.

As for the second problem. The Celestial Foundations aren't universe-sized, at all.


Given the evidence, Celestial Foundations can't be considered universal structure or space-time continuum (At least through our standards). We can probably treat them as either pocket realities or locations within space distant from one another. Whatever is fine by me.

As such, they should be downgraded to "Varies, Solar System for the huge ones"

2. The Abyss.

In this thread, it was accepted that the Abyss should be "possibly Low 1-C" due to it possibly having a universal size. Well, it should go, since the Celestial Foundation of Yogiri is stated to only be Solar System in size.

I suggest putting The Abyss as "Unknown".

3. The Sea

Since there exist at least more than ten thousand Celestial Foundations within the Sea, we can safely put the Sea at "At least Multi Solar-System".

Obviously, someone will argue that "The Sea was stated to be an infinite space" and as such, High Universal would be a better rating for it, but this isn't the case.

You see, infinity can't exist physically, what is infinite is in fact only what is vast enough that it appears as infinite, but the thing itself isn't.

So, no, it can't be infinite, although perhaps a "likely higher" rating could be implemented.

-----
That's it for now.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

nice debunk

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree 1000%

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll comeback to this later

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

As we agreed, we have talked a lot about this, put me under agree.

 

[Saucy_Jackistan24]

W cooking.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Agree for this thread as well, since I have translated the scans. Have to say this verse's world building is completely lackluster and underwhelming as hell.

 

[SweetDao]

Agree for this thread as well, since I have translated the scans. Have to say this verse's world building is completely lackluster and underwhelming as hell.

Thank you again dear sir!

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Damn is Yogiri gonna be downgraded? It will be an end of an era if so, but it looks likely it will be happening.

But from reading this, I agree with this.

 

[SweetDao]

Damn is Yogiri gonna be downgraded? It will be an end of an era if so, but it looks likely it will be happening.

Not in this thread, it will mostly not change anything for him.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Not in this thread, it will mostly not change anything for him.

Ah alright

 

[Homie890]

nah,thats crazy,how much will this verse be downgraded lmao.
agree,anyways.

 

[Ovy7]

Seems good, I agree!

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

We've already talked about this before, so of course, I agree.
The downgrade streak shall not stop, we're gonna get below Tier 2 Yogurt soon

 

[Voidnether]

I agree with all (Finally).

 

[BoastJr]

I think this looks fine unless anyone has any contention

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

I think this looks fine unless anyone has any contention

Goku's victim

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Proposals make plenty of sense.

 

[Da3ggman]

The downfall of Instant Death needs to be studied; count me as agreed.

 

[Meli_Tempest]

I think it's pretty good, I agree

 

[Railgun]

I agree, you guys have done a pretty good job

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

the stuff where a universe only has a solar system in it, author probably took that idea from demon king damio and this was the last type of debunk i expected ,them being lower than universe, But agree

Am more intrested in the next debunk then he,anything from this verse will not be able to even comprehend, touch any of my women even on chapter 1

 

[SweetDao]

author probably took that idea from demon king damio

I don't know if it's the case, but frankly, I was legit stunned for a couple minute when reading this. I couldn't believe it was the case, especially when you see THIS when talking about Yogiri's homeworld.

 

[SYPHe5D]

How far this verse has fallen,following.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

From what I could gather on OP, everything seems reasonable.

@Elizhaa @Firestorm808 @Planck69 @Theglassman12 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Propellus @ActuallySpaceMan42

When you got time, I would like your thoughts here.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, the OP looks fine to me, from what I can see.

 

[Theglassman12]

Looks ok to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you both

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I'm backkkkkkkkkkkk.

Ahhhh, our youth obssesed with trap....what has the world become

Anyways, as of now, I agree with the CRT. I always thought the only universal feat in the novel was the fight of UEG and Toichiro.

 

[Elizhaa]

On the first point, regarding the celestial foundations, Gods capable of accessing the higher layer of information of the world[11] similar to her angels. Can manipulate the world’s core which defines the world[12]. By manipulating the world core, the reality also will be impact from it. Those with the authority of god[12] can freely manipulate the world. Gods are capable of manipulating the underlying building block of reality.

• It gives credence to this overall concept; it is stated that worlds have their own laws, so I do not believe it is out of the ordinary if some behave differently.

For the second point, on the size,

• Alice’s pocket world is infinite or High 3-A and is just a bubble on the surface of the world or celestial foundation (Volume 9 chapter 15; Volume 9 Chapter 14).
• I think the depiction of celestial foundation are meant to be fully abstract not really fully accurate, in the manga. This is usually the case for many cosmology maps. Besides, the case of Alice’s world contradicted it.
• Darian’s ability and Random walk support timelines exist on the cosmology page.
• The stars exist in the world or celestial foundation and can be used for guidance (Volume 7, Chapter 15).
• There is a character with a star-cutter sword that can split planets and stars that are mentioned by a sage, basically an expert on the matters of powers; it will not make it if the celestial foundation is limited just to the solar system (Volume 11 Chapter 7). So, the statements from the other series can be dismissed as inconsistent.

For the Sea:

• I do believe the statements can be dismissed as inconsistent; multiple statements explain it is infinite but just do not.

So, I disagree overall.

 

[SweetDao]

It gives credence to this overall concept; it is stated that worlds have their own laws, so I do not believe it is out of the ordinary if some behave differently.

Yes, worlds have their own laws, that's about it. Prove me that they are conceptual entirely. Because, right now, you're going against what the author state.

Alice’s pocket world is infinite or High 3-A and is just a bubble on the surface of the world or celestial foundation (Volume 9 chapter 15; Volume 9 Chapter 14).

You see, infinity can't exist physically, what is infinite is in fact only what is vast enough that it appears as infinite, but the thing itself isn't.

I was sure someone was going to talk about it, so, here you go.

I think the depiction of celestial foundation are meant to be fully abstract not really fully accurate, in the manga. This is usually the case for many cosmology maps. Besides, the case of Alice’s world contradicted it.

So they are abstract...But can be hurt by Antimatter Torpedoes? They are abstract...but can be destroyed by someone falling a bit too hard on it?

Darian’s ability and Random walk support timelines exist on the cosmology page.

Oh yeah, absolutely, I'm not arguing timelines doesn't exist. I'm arguing either they are useless since they encompass smaller than universe-sized realm or that they outright encompass something bigger (like the Sea) instead of a single Celestial Foundation. The latter makes more sense.

You do know that, with the logic of "CF contains Timelines" there exist at least "countless" of Yogiri's the moment Lynel used his Random Walk? Using that logic, there may be countless version of our protagonists still, perhaps, inside Mitsuki's CF. Which, obviously, doesn't work.

The stars exist in the world or celestial foundation and can be used for guidance

So, stars exist, yet, there is no outerspace, hmmm, interesting indeed. You could use something simpler, like the mention of the Sun.

There is a character with a star-cutter sword that can split planets and stars that are mentioned by a sage, basically an expert on the matters of powers; it will not make it if the celestial foundation is limited just to the solar system (Volume 11 Chapter 7). So, the statements from the other series can be dismissed as inconsistent.

Ah yes, "it doesn't please me, so I'll dismiss it". Yeah, no, it doesn't work like this. You see, the battlesong system is something used by Gods to play games. Even within the other novel it's used the same way. Gods are beings that can travel through worlds and manage worlds on a daily basis, the Battlesong system is just a way for humans to get power, as such, while Mitsuki's CF may not have a real star, the simple fact that Gods are aware of worlds with stars is enough to explain this.

Regardless, I still don't see why someone having a sword that can "cut stars" proves that star exists inside Mitsuki's CF but whatever.

I do believe the statements can be dismissed as inconsistent; multiple statements explain it is infinite but just do not.

Show me those "multiple statements" because I also have other statement that explain it isn't infinite either.

By the way, the "infinite statement" isn't strictly limited to the Sea, it outright states nothing infinite in size or whatever can't exist in the cosmology.

 

[KingNanaya]

On the first point, regarding the celestial foundations, Gods capable of accessing the higher layer of information of the world[11] similar to her angels. Can manipulate the world’s core which defines the world[12]. By manipulating the world core, the reality also will be impact from it. Those with the authority of god[12] can freely manipulate the world. Gods are capable of manipulating the underlying building block of reality.

most of this just seems like reality manip.

also, this scan seems to suggest that this reality manip is done by going to a specific place and doing stuff, not as an inherent ability. Could you please provide more context? Because, as it is now, it seems like they (Gods and Angels) have authority/permission to go to a place where they interact with something that allows them to use reality manip.

There is a character with a star-cutter sword that can split planets and stars that are mentioned by a sage, basically an expert on the matters of powers; it will not make it if the celestial foundation is limited just to the solar system (Volume 11 Chapter 7). So, the statements from the other series can be dismissed as inconsistent.

I'm not sure how this proves or supports the celestial foundation being universal in size.

Alice’s pocket world is infinite or High 3-A and is just a bubble on the surface of the world or celestial foundation (Volume 9 chapter 15; Volume 9 Chapter 14).

SweetDao already sent a scan showing how infinity doesn't function in the verse in a tiering relevant way.

I think the depiction of celestial foundation are meant to be fully abstract not really fully accurate, in the manga.

I think you should substantiate why you think that this depiction isn't accurate.

Darian’s ability and Random walk support timelines exist on the cosmology page.

Timelines existing isn't the issue, the spaces they encompass aren't universal in size, so they aren't tiering applicable.

I do believe the statements can be dismissed as inconsistent; multiple statements explain it is infinite but just do not.

the statements aren't inconsistent, though, as @SweetDao scan actually give clarification on how infinity functions inside of the verse

 

[Elizhaa]

First, I am kind of busy. So, I might not be able to comment much until later. But first, why are we using another series as evidence to apply to this series like it was accepted as canon as I do not recall such a case for this series?
Usually, such cases need accepted revision; even the same series with a Web novel or Light novel needs a CRT about the canon, like whether to separate them or not, especially if there are inconsistencies.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

First, I am kind of busy. So, I might not be able to comment much. But first, why are we using another series as evidence to apply to this series like it was accepted as canon as I do not recall such a case?
Usually, such cases need accepted revision; even the same series with a Web novel or Light novel tends to need a CRT, especially if there are inconsistencies.

I had thought this was already accepted. If this isn't the case, keep me as neutral.

 

[SweetDao]

First, I am kind of busy. So, I might not be able to comment much. But first, why are we using another series as evidence to apply to this series like it was accepted as canon as I do not recall such a case?
Usually, such cases need accepted revision; even the same series with a Web novel or Light novel tends to need a CRT, especially if there are inconsistencies.

Because it's literally in the same cosmology with multiple stuff pointing toward it's connections with it. I'll quote the cosmology blog I'm planning to make.

Three novels written by Fujitaka currently have a shared universe. Those novels are the following:

• My Instant Death Ability Is So Overpowered, No One in This Other World Stands a Chance Against Me!
• My Big Sister Lives in a Fantasy World
• The Demon King is Unbeatable (大魔王が倒せない)

They share the same setting for multiple reasons. The first one is some characters appearing in each novel.

Chiharu Dannoura, Tomochika's sister, appears in My Big Sister Lives in a Fantasy World as a somewhat secondary character. Similarly, the protagonist of that same novel, Yuichi Sakaki (坂木雄), is mentioned in The Demon King in Unbeatable before another character gets isekai-ed.

The second reason is sharing the same cosmological setting.

Within Instant Death and The Demon King is Unbeatable, places like Celestial Foundations (天盤), The Sea (海), or even universes that encompass others are mentioned.

For the final reason, the Battle Song (バトルソング) System is also shared between Instant Death and The Demon King is Unbeatable.
With all those aspects, we can safely assume all of those stories happen in the same universe and can be used interchangeably to give us information about characters, places, or more.

There are as much proof as My Big Sister Lives in a Fantasy World, if no more, and I've not even listed everything, I'll admit.

 

[SweetDao]

I had thought this was already accepted. If this isn't the case, keep me as neutral.

Aight, I'll move you then

 

[Elizhaa]

Because it's literally in the same cosmology with multiple stuff pointing toward it's connections with it. I'll quote the cosmology blog I'm planning to make.



There are as much proof as My Big Sister Lives in a Fantasy World.

I think we still need CRT in the first; even the same series with web novel and light novel needs applicable CRT, especially when there are inconsistencies.
I think I remember a discussion about not using it since it looked behind the author's fan box, so it is not even a proper web novel, and it could be subject to rewriting.
It seems like it would not meet the notability rule since it seems like this series has not even been properly published if it is restricted to the author's fan box.
This case definitely should need a CRT first.

 

[KingNanaya]

I think we still need CRT in the first; even the same series with web novel and light novel needs applicable CRT, especially when there are inconsistencies.
I think I remember a discussion about not using it since it looked behind the author's fan box, so it is not even a proper web novel, and it could be subject to rewriting.
It seems like it would need to to meet the notability rule since it seems like this series has not even been published.
This case definitely should need a CRT.

Regarding Canonicity​

Nee-chan no Chuunibyo (My Big Sister Live in Fantasy World) and Instant death are confirmed to share the same verse mechanics, setting and canonicity.

He also mentioned it once again that the plot of the series of instant death is linked Nee-chan no Chuunibyo on Twitter

“	しかし即死チートは「姉ちゃんは中二病」の設定を踏襲してるので、実質「姉ちゃんは中二病」のアニメ化と言っても過言ではないのでは？（過言です However, the instant death cheat follows the setting of 'Sis is a Chuunibyou', so it would not be an exaggeration to say that this is in fact an anime adaptation of 'Sis is a Chuunibyou'? (It's an exaggeration.	„
	~ Official Twitter from the Author

And one more supporting evidence for the same setting similarity between both series is Tomochika Dannoura's sister, Chiharu Dannoura appear in Neechan wa Chuunibyou

“	“You are Chiharu...right?” Maybe she had been summoned to this world as well? Or had she died, and this was her ghost? Either case seemed equally likely. And how had she learned to float in the air that way? Her sister, Chiharu Dannoura, was an existence that defied common sense.	„
	~ Volume 1; Chapter 15 (Instant Death)

“	“My art is Dannoura Archery!” Chiharu declared. “The invincible form of archery founded by Nasu no Yoichi, specialized for close-range combat! Yuichi Sakaki, you are the perfect test target to establish my skill level!” Yuichi didn’t know much about it, but he did know there were forms of archery that specialized in close combat. It was an Uchine-jutsu technique that allowed the user to use their bow as a spear. This allowed archers to protect themselves on the battlefield after they ran out of arrows. There was a weapon called a hazuyari that involved a spear tip being applied to the nock of the bow.	„
	~ Volume 5; Chapter 3 (Nee-Chan)

Lastly, there is an afterword from the author that also explains that both series share the same connection.

“	For a bit of behind-the-scenes info, the plot of this series is linked in some ways to that of “My Big Sister Lives In a Fantasy World,” published by HJ Bunko. A few of the characters are related. If you haven’t read that series, it won’t affect your enjoyment of this one, though. It’s really just me playing around a bit, so if you are interested, please feel free to read that series as well.	„
	~ Volume 4; Afterword

In conclusion, it is unadventurous to say that both series share the same setting, consequently both can be used for cosmological resolutenesses.

Instant Death Cosmology Page

This page will cover Instant Death's Terminology and Cosmology. The page only covers relevant information about the practicality of cosmology overall. If any new information is acquired, this page will likely be updated. Any significant changes to this page must first be accepted in a Content...

vsbattles.fandom.com

already an accepted fact

 

[SweetDao]

I think I remember a discussion about not using it since it looked behind the author's fan box, so it is not even a proper web novel, and it could be subject to rewriting. This case definitely should need a CRT.

It was rewritten(? Perhaps, idk) but, well, I have the fanbox chapters regardless. Even if you don't wish to use volume 4/5 ones (those that "are not" published) we can still use everything from the Volume 1 through 3 since those were published back in 2015/2016, which is where most of the information I'm using comes from.

As for CRT or not, idk, I'm not aware if you need such a CRT to talk about canonicity or not. I don't remember seeing ones for other series.

Also, don't use "notability rule" since the first three volumes were published regardless.

 

[Elizhaa]

My Big Sister Live in Fantasy World was accepted, yes, not the series. You would need another CRT on the canon first.
If that related volume was published, I guess it can be notable; it was hard to find a source online on the book, so I was not sure hence I mentioned if it was the case.