• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The End of All Illusions 1/2 (Instant Death Cosmology Downgrade)

Status
Not open for further replies.
SweetDao

SweetDao

Part-Time Truth Seeker
Gold Supporter
1,333
1,750
When narrators will break free from the constraint of logic, when they'll manage to create and prove the existence of omniscience and omnipotence.

You will also be overtaken.

But me.

The end of all illusions, the end of all narrative Illusions.

Do you think the narrators can one day create a more omniscient and omnipotent existence?​
—------
Heya everyone. This is the first part of a very large thread that I planned. I figured it would be simpler to do so step by step, so here's the first cosmology revision I plan for the verse.

1. Ultimate Ensemble is just a name, really.

Let's recap why the Ultimate Ensemble World of Instant Death is Low 1-A, shall we?

1- It's called Ultimate Ensemble even in the raw
2- There are nested universes
3- Universes have different laws.

That's it. Because of those three meager elements, which can be seen here, the Ultimate Ensemble World is considered Low 1-A. In an old thread, like this one, people compared the Ultimate Ensemble World of ID with the Downstreamers.

The comparison shouldn't even be made. Instant Death never explained how the Ultimate Ensemble worked except in one paragraph. Worse, the most important aspect of a type 4 multiverse, the fact that mathematics is an underlying part of reality, is never mentioned.

I'm not specifically against the verse using a Type 4 Multiverse, but those are too few pieces of evidence to point at it. At this point, any fiction using nested universes and different laws is a type 4 multiverse too. Furthermore, some antifeat do exist within the verse itself.

In the original upgrade thread, it was supposed to be debated. Sadly, nothing of that sort occurred. Well, here I am.

If there's no additional evidence or reasoning that isn't known, the verse should be downgraded. A name can only let you go so far.

Therefore, the verse would have to get rid of potential "scaling" to a Multiverse type 4 since there wasn't such a thing to begin with.

Where would it scale? Well, probably at only 1-B. Why?

Because there are only two instances that might hint at something greater. The first one is regarding Kouryu explaining how "If time and space are infinite and how universes are contained within larger universes and so on", and the second one would be the fact that the fight between UEG and Toichiro would have "no end" if allowed to continue.

I'll tackle the second one first since it's the easiest. Continuing "endlessly" =/= reaching infinity. That would only be 1-B.

For the first explanation, it is noted that within the cosmology blog, this explanation is given :
"The higher universes are dimensions that exist beyond the Sea. According to UEG, these higher universes are implied to be more higher-dimensional than the Sea. It is also suggested that each higher universe is contained within a larger higher universe, and so on, with each higher universe representing a higher dimension that encompasses lower dimensions and is significantly larger than the previous one. Kouryu (who is nigh-omniscient) implied that this universe-embedding hierarchy is endless."
Click to expand...

The relevance of stating that Kouryu is a "nigh-omniscient" being is kinda useless since Gods are all "nigh-omnipotent" and "nigh-omniscient", the only thing that changes between Gods of higher ranking is their reach. Furthermore, the Ultimate God, who should be "more omniscient and more omnipotent" than Kouryu isn't even sure that there aren't other worlds that he can't grasp. Are you telling me that a "random God" knows time and space are infinite when even the most powerful one isn't sure?

Also, just check this. There is nothing else to add, frankly.

So yeah, saying it's infinite would need supporting evidence.

Therefore, the peak of the verse would be at an unquantifiable level into 1-B.

2. (Not so) Ultimate Extermination God

UEG is currently Low 1-A to be seemingly able to "destroy the Ultimate Ensemble". However, it's impossible.

The evidence for such a thing is this scene. Which needs some explanation.

First, Kouryu explained the following while (more or less, it's just an illusion) being in front of UEG :
"Some of us believe in a theory like this : There are universes contained inside larger universes and so on. Why has that total collection of universes survived? If space and time are infinite, then there is a possibility that eventually an ultimate being would emerge, one that could wipe out all universes on a whim. If the possibility isn't zero, then given infinite time, it is guaranteed to happen. But it hasn't. From what we've been able to observe, once gods reach a certain threshold of power, they disappear. So there must be someone out there erasing them, right? There must be some sort of limit or criteria being applied."
Click to expand...

It should be self-explanatory, but Kouryu, currently in front of UEG, said that "An ultimate being capable of destroying all the universes on a whim hasn't appeared". UEG doesn't possess that kind of power, that's as clear as water. If she did, he wouldn't say such a being didn't appear, that being would be right in front of him.

That's not all, since not only Kouryu explain that he isn't sure of himself regarding the information he gives, but also that everything he said is merely a theory and that there might be not even a single shred of truth to any of it.

This, just this.

But don't worry, if you aren't convinced, let's delve into Volume 15.

Within this volume, we learn that an "Ultimate God" does exist, to some degree. The funny thing is, he's considered not only the strongest in "all possible worlds" but also the only one at this level. It wouldn't make any sense to say UEG is on the same level as the Ultimate God.

Worse, if we assume that she's indeed on the same level as him, it would mean that Luu and Alexia are also on the same level as him, with Mitsuki being stronger than them. Yeah, that just can't work, at all, or maybe Ultimate God got some dementia going on.

UEG's rating should be changed to 1-B thanks to her "numerous ascensions".

3. A Mimir Mitsuki

He scales higher than UEG. After all, he first had no other power besides his charm, but later on, UEG alongside Luu and Alexia gave him enough power to be at "110 points of power" compared to them. Moreover, the author also acknowledges this much.

He would scale at 1-B for being stronger than UEG. (This is already the case, but I'm merely explaining his rating more)

4. Yogurt

Within volume 15, we learn that Yogiri is indeed a limiter for the whole Ultimate Ensemble, it is in that sense that he "defines" it. Seeing the overall context, this translation would be better for this scene. But in any case, those are just details.

Rating Yogiri is complicated, honestly. There is a lot to take into account, but from what I've seen, WoG isn't used to scale the character, so at least we can ignore this.
If we had to review the highest feats he has done, it would be the following :

  • Killing UEG/Being able to kill Mitsuki (1-B)
  • Ultimate God saying he can't win against Yogiri (At least 1-B but higher than UEG/Mitsuki)
  • He's a limiter for the Ultimate Ensemble World. (???)

The reason I'm placing the Ultimate God at "At least 1-B" isn't to be stupidly safe in his rating, but it's because there had been a statement from him that might imply he can't destroy all worlds. He explains that he's "able to know all worlds and exert influence" while also being "the strongest in all possible worlds he can think of", but at the same time, he can't be sure there aren't worlds that he can't grasp. I suppose a "possibly" higher rating might be warranted, it all depends on how the CRT goes really, and I'm not against discussing it.

So yeah, 1-B Yogiri, probably higher. Although, he would have a way bigger range than his AP.

I'm unsure if we can use Volume 15 stuff, but even if we can't for the time being, it's fine. Most of the information I've given is just to give all the context I could find, alongside giving all the explanation necessary. That's why I don't plan on going in-depth with Ultimate God.

-----
Agree : Floxiaaa, Dark_Soul20189, Astral_Trinity439, RoninSlayer200, Behemoth98, Ihsjihahxu, LifeRiderthe1 (Fine with unquantifiable into 1-B or High 1-B for Yogiri), Everything12, Quintessence_PE, Nexus_still_slams, Grabbing_dragon, KingNanaya, Robo432343, TWILIGHT-OP, Georredannea15, Railgun (For now), Eseseso, Ovy7, Unqver, Aernasilver, FaZe_Liam, ActuallySpaceMan42, Karabach-barabach, DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree :

Neutral :
 
Last edited:
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Personally I think true form Yogiri should fully scale due to being a concept that defines the entire cosmology. Should at least fully scale in durability though.
Click to expand...
It's a rule, not a concept.

He would have a range equal to it, but not a potency equal to it. His job is to "regulate" the Ultimate Ensemble World, it would be antithetical to assume he can destroy the "body itself" instead of the nuisances within it.

As for durability, I don't know to be fair, if it was all on me, I would assume "Unknown, possibly X" but eh, whatever is fine.
 
UG was also yapping to lets be honest esspically with that whole
He wants me to introduce him to someone strong right away. You're so impatient. Now that you've made it all the way up here, you might as well enjoy your current situation a little more: ......I see. You like fighting the best, don't you? You don't care about anything else. I guess so. But it all depends on who I introduce you to. If he's as strong as you ......Don't make fun of me? Go show me the best. I don't know if you can say that. If they are too different from you, they won't even consider you. Why don't you find out for yourself? You've got some kind of omniscient power, too. Hmm. You have questions about omniscience and omnipotence. If the being called God is basically omniscient and omnipotent, doesn't it seem strange that there are several of them? Yes, but as I mentioned earlier, strictly speaking, omniscience and omnipotence cannot exist. But that's too much trouble, so let's ignore the details and just say omniscient and omnipotent. There are many omniscient people who seem to be omnipotent, and there are ranks of omniscient people. In other words, the omniscient ones of a higher rank are no match for the omniscient ones of a lower rank. I'm getting a little cheesy by saying omniscient and omnipotent so much. Anyway, your current limit is the extent of what you can try to know. It is not reasonable to expect more than that. I see that you have found a few people. It seems you have found some people. You should start with the ones within your reach for now. What, it may not be possible right away, but you have a lot of time when you get to this area. You can do as much research as you want. He's gone, huh? You are so impatient. You don't have to be in such a hurry.
<- that dumb section lol. I will say I am fine with either unquantifiable 1-B or just giving it high 1-B for the sake of "all" but yea i agree with the thread
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
Anyway, I remember about V-road where UG told the readers that he was the first step in V-Road's hierarchy.
Click to expand...
No, UG told the random V-Road god that the V-Road is just a way for humans to enter Godhood. He isn't the first step, he's so high into it that no one can come close to his level.
 
SweetDao said:
I don't see what the quote you sent might have to do with a "High 1-B" rating. But I'll note your vote regardless.
Click to expand...
i was in referring to a different scan but i was talking about the intent of them yapping just so you could "think" though i probably just miss understood the UG statement
知りたいかぁ。そうだなぁ。断片的な情報を拾い集めて勝手に解釈されるよりは、僕が説明しちゃったほうがいいのかな？ 　現時点での個体名は高遠夜霧。とある世界のとある宇宙のとある惑星に棲息するかなり脆弱な生命体だよ。現時点と言っているのは、アレは時代や場所によってはまったく別の個体である場合があるからだね。 　で、無敵だ。ありとあらゆる意味で。 　脆弱な生命体のはずじゃないかって？ 　そうなんだよ。そうなんだけど、アレに対しては何もすることができない。アレは高遠夜霧という状態を維持し続けようとしているから、それを脅かす対象を排除するんだ。〝世界〟からね。 　あ、〝世界〟はありとあらゆる世界を含む究極集合的な世界のことだよ。いやね、単純に世界って言うとさ。その世界の外側がどうだとか、別次元がどうだとか、並行世界がどうだとか言いだす奴がいるんだよね。だからもう、ごちゃごちゃ言うなよ〝世界〟って言ったらもう何もかも全部のことだよ、って意味で言ってるんだ。君もそう理解してほしい。"Do you want to know? Well, it might be better for me to explain than for you to gather fragmentary information and interpret it on your own. The current individual is named Takatō Yogiri. It's a rather vulnerable life form inhabiting a certain planet in a certain universe of a certain world. I say 'current' because it could be an entirely different individual depending on the era and location. So, it's invincible in every sense. Vulnerable life form, you say? That's right. However, nothing can be done against it. It eliminates anything that threatens the state of Takatō Yogiri, trying to maintain that, from the 'world.' Oh, by 'world,' I mean the Ultimate Ensemble World, including all conceivable worlds. I know, saying just 'world' can lead to discussions about the outside of that world, different dimensions, parallel worlds, and so on. So I don’t mess around when I say 'world,' I mean it encompasses everything. I hope you understand it that way."
this section here in reference to the ensemble/collection world zero told me it can translate to either or, but esstionally it contains "all" and what i was doing was kinda cope ngl saying it would contain all spatial axis pass 1-B but yea i do agree unquantifiable 1-B is fine with me
 
Everything12 said:
I'd prefer not to touch anything regarding the Ultimate God, because I'd prefer to wait until the official translation is available so I can purchase it and see for myself. As for everything I'd say it makes sense.
Click to expand...
I didn't expect you to come ngl. I'm sorry you had to take some time to comment despite your current condition. I'll count your vote!
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:
this section here in reference to the ensemble/collection world zero told me it can translate to either or, but esstionally it contains "all" and what i was doing was kinda cope ngl saying it would contain all spatial axis pass 1-B but yea i do agree unquantifiable 1-B is fine with me
Click to expand...
I mean, the Ultimate Ensemble World is the collection of every universe that exist. It's the whole cosmology, basically.
 
Seems fine to me.
1203776042104266812.png
 
Deidalius said:
ID fans get hit with massive downgrades and continue to do nothing about it except cry on other social media for the 2,036,327 time this week.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your insight, which is extremely relevant to this thread. This site might be solely entertainment at the end of the day, but being slight less antagonistic to others would be appreciated, regardless of how immature they may or may not behave on others sites.
 
SweetDao said:
At this point, any fiction using nested universes and different laws is a type 4 multiverse too.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is that neither of these 2 are specific properties of a type 4 multiverse. The universes having different laws of physics is actually a property of the Type 2 Multiverse, and the nested universes have 0 to do with Tegmark's Multiverses classification, but is closer to the Black Holes cosmology theorem (the theory that the universe is inside a black hole in a large universe, and so on ad infinitum).

Anyway, I think I was among the few who disagreed with Type 4 when it was originally brought up (I think a year ago?) and my stance had not changed, so I agree with this CRT.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Dishano
  • Locked
Instant Death cosmology upgrade
2 3
Replies
87
Views
5K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
SweetDao
The End of All Illusions 1.5/2 (Instant Death Cosmology Downgrade)
2 3
Replies
113
Views
9K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Ihsjihahxu
  • Locked
Instant death downgrade
Replies
17
Views
2K
Ace_craft_x
Ace_craft_x
Ihsjihahxu
Instant death upgrade God have? BDE
2
Replies
65
Views
4K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Laviossiii
  • Locked
  • Article
Instant Death Revision
2
Replies
59
Views
5K
Dark_Soul20189
Dark_Soul20189
Back
Top