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The Dragonborn (Skyrim) Vs. Joker (Persona)

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TacticalNuke002 said:
Where is this 1-A stuffs coming from?

In any case, Prisoner Metaphysics exists. Ren literally cannot win.
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What do you mean "Prisoner Metaphysics"?
 
What? At best, that might be considered Fate Manip, which Ren is resistant to.
 
Ren was destined to lose Yaldabaoth's game and die from the very beginning. Literally everything around him was deliberately rigged against him, yet he broke that fate, secured a bright future and shot the god in the face.
 
DarkGrath said:
What? At best, that might be considered Fate Manip, which Ren is resistant to.
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Getting back on topic, the Dovahkiin's soul is composed of hundred, if not thousands of dragon souls. Each of these dragon souls are so strong that none of the school of magic is capable of affecting it. This is one of the reason why a dragonborn is the only who can permanently kill a dragon, because no school of magic is capable of absorbing or destroying a dragon's soul.

The Dovahkiin also have Spellbreaker, a Shield that can protect it's wielder from magic, either by blocking it straight up or passively silencing a mage before they can cast their spell.

"Spell Breaker, superficially a Dwemer tower shield, is one of the most ancient relics of Tamriel. Aside from its historical importance in the Battle of Rourken-Shalidor, the Spell Breaker protects its wielder almost completely from any spell caster, either by reflecting magicks or silencing any mage about to cast a spell" - Tamrielic Lore
 
Magic in TES is essentially done through reality warping, right? Ren's attacks probably wouldn't qualify, and so I don't think that Spell Breaker would help the Dovahkiin here.

And again, there's still been very little mention so far of Ren's Bless Manip. He:

1: Uses it in-character

2: Can use it to one-shot

3: The Dovahkiin doesn't have Bless resistance

How does he get past that?
 
Spellbreaker doesn't necessarily need to block reality warping. It can block effects of reality warping just fine too.

Dovahkiin is himself quite blessed by both Aedric divines and also patronised by the Daedric Princes.
 
DarkGrath said:
Magic in TES is essentially done through reality warping, right? Ren's attacks probably wouldn't qualify, and so I don't think that Spell Breaker would help the Dovahkiin here.

And again, there's still been very little mention so far of Ren's Bless Manip. He:

1: Uses it in-character

2: Can use it to one-shot

3: The Dovahkiin doesn't have Bless resistance

How does he get past that?
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What is the mechanic of Joker's magic and bless manipulation? And can you give me an example of some of his bless skill?
 
Solacis said:
And how does this apply to the match?
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Via Prisoner Metaphysics, Dovahkiin brings his A-game. He takes the right decision for the right moment, uses the right tactics, uses his best equipment and spells, doesn't mess up, and above all, if there's even a slight chance that Dovah can win, he does just that. Prisoner Metaphysics is the canonical explanation for savescumming.

And no, its not exactly Fate Manip.
 
He has various Bless-based attacks that are designed around insta-kills. How they work is that, instead of dealing damage, they have a certain percentage chance to either instantly kill the opponent or do nothing. His strongest Bless move, which he should logically have if we are using end-game Joker, is Samsara which has an 80% chance of instantly killing every target provided they do not have resistance to Bless attacks. That's why it's such a clear and easy win-con for Joker.

And it's not the only insta-kill attack he has either. Joker can inflict the Despair ailment, which leaves his opponent completely unable to move and will cause them to die after a small amount of time has passed. There's the fear ailment, which when mixed with one of his Almighty skills that nullifies resistances (can't remember the exact name of the skill, I think it was something like "Dreadful Wail"?) can instantly kill any opponent inflicted with ailments like Fear.

That's why I've been saying that Joker would win. He has several insta-kill moves that he uses in character which the Dovahkiin does not resist.
 
Waria Kambang said:
DarkGrath said:
What on earth...

So the Dovahkiin has Low 1-C artefacts and 1-A resistances, yet is only Low 2-C in tier?

This is bizarre
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Well, to be honest, i have my doubt about it. If everyone have 1-A soul, then how come spell such as soul trap can affect them? It doesn't make sense.
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The Soul in TES has two different aspects: The Animus, which is the skin where an individual's magickal reserves, memories, lifeforce and overall individuality is contained. It's pretty much the "Soul" in the proper sense and what gets affected by Soul Gem shenanigans.

Then there is the AE, which as a concept is vague and referenced only a few times in the lore. But it can be inferred through some external sources to be the non-dual "Divine Spark" rooted within every Mortal Spirit, which is untouched by either space and time, and is basically the part of their being through which one can achieve enlightenment and this transcendence and union with the Universe and all that shit. So yeah, it is basically the "1-A Soul" Matt talked about in that thread.

it's pretty much inconsequential in regards to vs threads tho, so lol
 
Dovahkiin resists fear and bless. Blessed resistance via having stronger blessings. Also, his Prisoner Metaphysics ensures that Ren only lands the 20% chance of failure. Dovah also resists Death manip. Dovah's resistances are very large in number and still haven't been added to his profile yet.
 
DarkGrath said:
snips
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I see. To be honest, i don't see how Spellbreaker can't just block it. While Spellbreaker can stop mage before they cast their spell, it also can block the result of said spell.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Waria Kambang said:
DarkGrath said:
What on earth...

So the Dovahkiin has Low 1-C artefacts and 1-A resistances, yet is only Low 2-C in tier?

This is bizarre
Click to expand...
Well, to be honest, i have my doubt about it. If everyone have 1-A soul, then how come spell such as soul trap can affect them? It doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
The Soul in TES has two different aspects: The Animus, which is the skin where an individual's magickal reserves, memories, lifeforce and overall individuality is contained. It's pretty much the "Soul" in the proper sense and what gets affected by Soul Gem shenanigans.
Then there is the AE, which as a concept is vague and referenced only a few times in the lore. But it can be inferred through some external sources to be the non-dual "Divine Spark" rooted within every Mortal Spirit, which is untouched by either space and time, and is basically the part of their being through which one can achieve enlightenment and this transcendence and union with the Universe and all that shit. So yeah, it is basically the "1-A Soul" Matt talked about in that thread.

it's pretty much inconsequential in regards to vs threads tho, so lol
Click to expand...
so basically atman from hinduism
 
I see. So he has a ton of resistances that have yet to be added?

Could you elaborate on the Bless resistance? Since that seems to be the main win-con for Ren here.

And as for the Prisoner Metaphysics, even if it is not perfectly considered Fate Manip, the fact that he is essentially "destined to always succeed" doesn't really mean much when Ren has prevented destiny before.
 
Since he's already blessed by much stronger deities than Persona characters, its unlikely that he'll be affected by blessings from lesser sources. Spellbreaker blocks it in any case.

Preventing destiny isn't good enough to protect against savescumming.
 
Note that Bless spells aren't technically blessings. They're Holy Manipulation, with certain spells having additional Death Manipulation. Ren's attacks are also not only an extension of his Soul Manip, but also his Mind Manip. If he can't affect the Dovahkiin's soul because of the 1-A resistances, he'll affect him via his mind, which has significantly lower resistance. He could also just attack the body directly.

Almighty skills bypass resistances, so Stagnant Air would effectively remove the Dovahkiin's resistance to Fear Manip. After which, one Evil Smile + Ghastly Wail would instakill him.

Also, what does the Dovahkiin have that bypasses Ren's Omnipotent Orb, anyway?
 
I'd imagine, given the discussion so far, that some of the daedric artefacts would get past the Omnipotent Orb. But as I've mentioned, the Dovahkiin would surely be far less likely to use them than Ren would with his insta-kill attacks.

And again, I'm still not convinced on this whole "Prisoner Metaphysics" concept. While it may be the in-game explanation for save-scumming, every description shows that it is essentially all about the Dovahkiin using the exact right method of beating their opponent first time (with all the saves where you died having never happened). Problem is, as I've mentioned, this is essentially just being "destined to win", and Ren has explicitly stopped that before.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Dovahkiin also has the option of popping off to Apocrypha and throwing mindhax from there.
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That was only possible after the Dragonborn DLC, right? In which case, no, he can't. The OP specified that this is End Game Dragonborn, who both canonically and as shown on the profile was before the Dragonborn DLC.
 
This is what Matthew has to say about Dovahkiin's first move.

"Everyone here talking about first moves are blissfully unaware of how TES Metaphysics work

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...hy#The_Prisoner:_The_Hero_Who_Frees_The_World

The Prisoner is free from the chains of causality and determinism that bind the Dream of the Godhead, and thus have true free will to be as they are, walk any path they choose and do as they will.

They can be of any race, any gender, and do anything, and it will be all simultaneously and equally true regardless of contradictions, as the Prisoner is an entity that exists outside all possibility-points (Possible future branching paths).

So the Dovahkiin will have every item they can use, every spell they can use, and will be able to act with maximum efficiency and use the best spells, shouts, techniques and attacks for the situation at hand."

So the Dovahkiin using the Staff of Magnus is completely in-character for him.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Up to High Hyperversal with Non-Combative Thu'um and Spells (this is the range of his mindhax).
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Ok, seriously.

Can anyone tell me again how this isn't a stomp? If the Dovahkiin has everything he can have, makes the ideal move for every situation he enters, and has hax ludicrously above his tier, then why is this even a match? Ren gets absolutely bodied.
 
Ok, seriously.

Can anyone tell me again how this isn't a stomp? If the Dovahkiin has everything he can have, makes the ideal move for every situation he enters, and has hax ludicrously above his tier, then why is this even a match? Ren gets absolutely bodied.

Because Ren can also insta-kill him. That's the reason why i vote inconclusive.
 
That can't exactly happen because Become Etherial can let you become one with the TES void. Which is a degree of intangibility Ren has never shown to affect.
 
Also, the Dovahkiin's win condition is his first move according to Prisoner Metaphysics based on what's been said above. That is, any hax above Low 2-C instantly wrecks Joker.
 
BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing.
I feel sad that people talk too much about artifacts. A bigger stick named Thu'um barely gets mentioned. This lady above here is infinitesmally weaker than the Dovahkiin, and she can do that shit.
 
KongKing23 said:
BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing.
Click to expand...
I feel sad that people talk too much about artifacts. A bigger stick named Thu'um barely gets mentioned. This lady above here is infinitesmally weaker than the Dovahkiin, and she can do that shit.
That's what I'm saying. A lot of his shouts I don't think Ren could counter.
 
Both sides have first moves that can one-shot the other. Ren has his death hax and the Dovahkiin has his mindhax. Inconclusive FRA.
 
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