The Disastrous Novel of Saiki Kusuo (Last Attempt at Salvation)

[ShionAH]

I will be trying this again since I feel like I was unable to debate at the last CRT.

Literally the second and the sixth ******* reply for the CRT is a mods agreeing with it

Important evidence will be bold.

• Purpose

This CRT is trying to consider the novel of Saiki Kusuo (Extra Stories of Psychics)

• Proof

Saiki in one of the chapters states that "when I dont have the limiter I can teleport without interval! Thats the novel setting you didnt read it?"

Kusuke directly states the existence of the Light Novel

Kusuo directly grabs the Light Novel in the manga and promotes it

Heck even the anime makes a reference to it

In the Light Novel we see direct references to the events of the manga, several times, direct statements of the manga existing in the same universe "for the readers" (who are actual characters in verse) and we even have statements for the events of the manga from Nendou (who generally cannot even break the fourth wall!)

• The Problem with the evidence according to DontTalk

"They specifically mention it as existing as a paperback book in the universe and only as that. They at no point say in any way that what is written in the book actually happens. In fact, that the novel is brought up but exclusively as a work of fiction, makes me just more convinced that it isn't supposed to have actually happened."

Counter Argument: Saiki has shown that he can do this to even his own manga. So is the manga itself also fictional? Is everything fictional and Saiki is featless? No this is simply a way Saiki breaks the fourth wall. As we also see that Kusuke and Kusuo talk about the events of the novel as things that actually affected his powers. If it was just work of fiction OR not canon then why would Saiki use it as a way to prove how his Teleportation works?

We have like 3-4 scans showing Novel is canon while 0 that imply it is not.

Agreements: (9) @Sir_Ovens, @Lord_Farquaad69420, @Comiphorous, @BadSystems, @Edutyn, @noninho, @Rockysbalboa, @Mizuki67, @Jozaysmith?
Disagreements: (4) @DontTalkDT, @AdamVhenJP, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Reiner04, @Fallen_Angelicx

 

[ShionAH]

Where are my mods coming here and agreeing before anyone makes counter arguments huh? Why does that specifically only happen when DontTalk makes a CRT?

 

[Edutyn]

Following for interest

 

[Dragonite007]

Where are my mods coming here and agreeing before anyone makes counter arguments huh? Why does that specifically only happen when DontTalk makes a CRT?

Because, funny blue name

 

[ShionAH]

Bump

DDM? Where are you. You seem "intrested" in this verse seeing how you agreed to one crt DT made before anyone else could...

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

disagree

 

[ShionAH]

disagree

Not counted

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Not counted

I'm a blue name

 

[ShionAH]

I'm a blue name

BestMGWScalerEver? More like BestDummyEver, gottem

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Seems fine for the novel to be canon to me.

 

[ShionAH]

Seems fine for the novel to be canon to me.

I love you, could you ping some people?

 

[DivineAura44]

Bump

DDM? Where are you. You seem "intrested" in this verse seeing how you agreed to one crt DT made before anyone else could...

Chill out with the hostility.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Agree, I am totally a mod my pookie bear on reddit

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Chill out with the hostility.

i think he's mostly just joking considering staff CRT's have like 10 staff but normies just die out

 

[Comiphorous]

As 100% a moderator of the VSBattles Wiki, i agree.

 

[DivineAura44]

i think he's mostly just joking considering staff CRT's have like 10 staff but normies just die out

I'm aware it's a joke. I'm also aware that staff CRTs get more attention. It still comes off as needlessly hostile.

 

[Edutyn]

Bump⁴

 

[ShionAH]

I wanted to bump : (

 

[Edutyn]

I wanted to bump : (

 

[ShionAH]

Bump

 

[Edutyn]

Le Bump

 

[ShionAH]

Bump

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Bump

sad ngl

 

[ShionAH]

sad ngl

This is what happens when you support a dead media

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Armorchompy @Maverick_Zero_X

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, so I obviously disagree.
"Saiki can break the fourth wall to hold his own manga" is no counter-argument to the fact that the prior stuff is no argument in favor of the matter.
It doesn't change the fact that the evidence presented in favor at no point actually shows that these things canonically happened.
You are combining "Saiki once held his own series as a book" and "a different book was shown in the series" to "the different book actually happened", which is not a valid inference. By that reasoning, every other book ever mentioned in the series would have to have happened as well, which is obviously not the case.

The novel doesn't exist in the manga as more than a 4th wall breaking gag. It inferes the same level of "canon" as a character turning to the reader and saying "check out the anime as well".

Just to present the full range of counter-evidence: For a start the novel isn't written by the author.

The novel mentioning the manga is not evidence that it is canon to the manga. (every spin-off and fanfiction does that)

Oh, and it is a crossover. A non-canon crossover to be specific:

Which actually brings me to one more reason as to why I don't think it's canon: It's a god damn crossover. And it straight up acknowledges that some of the characters have non-canon abilities

The man introduces himself.
“Hmph… My name is Ruchi. I’m a super idol in the 'Legendary Idol New Generation: Kanata Seven Change’ universe.”

(A world of heroes? You must be kidding me. I’ll use the power of ‘sight’ to turn this world into one that adores me… Ha ha ha…)
(I bet he can’t actually use that power in his series…)

So if the novel is non-canon to some of the series involved in the crossover, it is ultra suspicious to assume it's canon to Saiki K. in particular, when nothing that happened in it has actually been acknowledged to have actually happened in main canon.

So yeah, long story short, I don't think the novels are canon to the manga, mainly is there just is no evidence for anything in them having happened in canon.

So yeah, by all accounts there is not only no actualy evidence in favor of the events in the novel really having happened there is good reason to assume they are non-canon.


(Just tagging @Sir_Ovens to make sure this is seen @DarkDragonMedeus & @Damage3245 since they already evaluated this the last time)

 

[Damage3245]

DontTalk still continues to make the most sense on this.

 

[AdamVhenJP]

I see Makes Sense to DT.

 

[ShionAH]

"Saiki can break the fourth wall to hold his own manga" is no counter-argument to the fact that the prior stuff is no argument in favor of the matter.

It shows that it may be a fourth wall break rather than in-verse book. So it IS a counter-argument.

It doesn't change the fact that the evidence presented in favor at no point actually shows that these things canonically happened.

Saiki directly uses the novel to explain how he can do his teleportation without interval.

If this was completely not canon then he wouldnt use this as evidence.

Think of like this, I write a book about you "Dont Talks Adventure" in the book you run really fast.

Then tomorrow you go to a race and win it when people ask "How" you answer with "Just read 'Dont Talks Adventure!'" Does that make sense? No. Expect if would make sense if it actually happened

For a start the novel isn't written by the author.

Irrelevant

DontTalk

I want you to read this response. This scan quite literally means the novel is canon, otherwise it does not make sense.

In the scan we see Saiki say "Because of this in the novel I can do this with my teleportation" if the novel was not canon then that wouldnt affect this, if the novel was a in-verse book then that wouldnt affect this scene in the manga.

If you simply say "Yeah he make sense" without even listening to the otherside and never come back then this would obviously be a biased vote, just a warning.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It shows that it may be a fourth wall break rather than in-verse book. So it IS a counter-argument.

Not really. It's the equivalence of saying "There's no evidence Zeno in Dragon Ball is not Tier 0". If your evidence consists entirely of a lack of counter-evidence you have no case.

Saiki directly uses the novel to explain how he can do his teleportation without interval.

If this was completely not canon then he wouldnt use this as evidence.

Think of like this, I write a book about you "Dont Talks Adventure" in the book you run really fast.

Then tomorrow you go to a race and win it when people ask "How" you answer with "Just read 'Dont Talks Adventure!'" Does that make sense? No. Expect if would make sense if it actually happened

Again, it's part of a fourth wall breaking gag. There is no version of this in which someone canonically sat down and published a book based on the events of the novel they observed and then published it. Saiki's powers are secret and all that.

So no, there is no way Saiki points someone to the book because it's an actual chronicle of events. It's just a way to make a 4th wall breaking gag and promote a related piece of media with it.

Doesn't help that it references none of the events in the book either.

 

[ShionAH]

Again, it's part of a fourth wall breaking gag. There is no version of this in which someone canonically sat down and published a book based on the events of the novel they observed and then published it. Saiki's powers are secret and all that.

You are saying your own argument makes no sense. That is true yes. The in-verse book argument sucks.

So no, there is no way Saiki points someone to the book because it's an actual chronicle of events. It's just a way to make a 4th wall breaking gag and promote a related piece of media with it.

Expect we see Saiki can use this teleportation because of the novel and uses the novel to explain it. If it was not canon then why the **** would Kusuo use something that does not exists to explain it to someone who also doesnt know it exists.

The events must have happened for Kusuo to know them

Doesn't help that it references none of the events in the book either.

It references the entire damn novel several times.

I showed you those scans of the novel being in the manga. You said it was a in-verse book.

I showed you how it cannot be a in-verse book with the manga scan and this scan. You are now completely out of arguments and keep repeating “Uhh fourth wall!” With nothing to base your argument with

If the novel isnt canon then how does Saiki know it and how does that event affect the manga? How about Kusuo showing the novels existence several times?

 

[DontTalkDT]

You are saying your own argument makes no sense. That is true yes. The in-verse book argument sucks.

Expect we see Saiki can use this teleportation because of the novel and uses the novel to explain it. If it was not canon then why the **** would Kusuo use something that does not exists to explain it to someone who also doesnt know it exists.

The events must have happened for Kusuo to know them

It references the entire damn novel several times.

I showed you those scans of the novel being in the manga. You said it was a in-verse book.

I showed you how it cannot be a in-verse book with the manga scan and this scan. You are now completely out of arguments and keep repeating “Uhh fourth wall!” With nothing to base your argument with

If the novel isnt canon then how does Saiki know it and how does that event affect the manga? How about Kusuo showing the novels existence several times?

Because it is a fourth wall breaking joke. You are trying to twist a joke into something, that's your problem.

I'm really not contradicting myself. I say that your proof doesn't proof it's canon, as it doesn't actually show the events happening but just that something exists as a book. You say "but the events in the books need to have happened, because they bring up the contents" I say they bring up the contents as part of the same joke that made them include books that obviously don't canonically exist in the verse. There is no contradiction here, just the basic elemnst of a fourth wall breaking joke.



For everyone else as added context: Saiki does fourth wall breaking references to other media on the regular.
Here and here we have him bring up the shonen jump showing several different series. Here we have another promotion for a different work. Here we have him use a move from a non-canon crossover fighting game.
And, of course, him using a move from a non-canon crossover fighting game is just as little proof of it happening, as him saying that his teleportation is explained in an in-universe non-canon crossover novel is evidence towards that happening.

 

[ShionAH]

Because it is a fourth wall breaking joke. You are trying to twist a joke into something, that's your problem.

Not really, you realized you cannot debunk the novel arguments so now you are attacking the canonity. I know that

I'm really not contradicting myself. I say that your proof doesn't proof it's canon, as it doesn't actually show the events happening but just that something exists as a book.

It does literally show events happening in the novel affect the manga. The reason why Saiki can teleport like that IS the novel. There is no joke here, its literally just showing the novels stuff can affect the manga.

You say "but the events in the books need to have happened, because they bring up the contents" I say they bring up the contents as part of the same joke that made them include books that obviously don't canonically exist in the verse. There is no contradiction here, just the basic elemnst of a fourth wall breaking joke.

So your whole argument is “Its a joke”?

Thats entirely subjective. It doesnt seem like a joke to me. I dont see the punchline, it seems like Saiki is just saying how he can do one of his abilities.

Here we have him use a move from a non-canon crossover fighting game.
And, of course, him using a move from a non-canon crossover fighting game is just as little proof of it happening, as him saying that his teleportation is explained in an in-universe non-canon crossover novel is evidence towards that happening.

You are showing a random reference of him grabbing rocks against this scene of the manga that directly states the novels events can affect it.

What you showed is a fourth wall reference, when you look at both of the scans you’ll see one big difference. One of them is a simple joke while the other actually explains how Kusuo is suddenly able to teleport like that.

When a “joke” actually explains something then we take it as evidence.

@AdamVhenJP Try not to choke on it.

 

[DivineAura44]

@AdamVhenJP Try not to choke on it.

Because he liked a comment? Genuinely, chill out. Before you could say "I was just joking", but that was crude.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

By that reasoning, every other book ever mentioned in the series would have to have happened as well, which is obviously not the case.

This is a bad argument because it relies on the context being stripped from the scenes themselves. He's referencing the novel because both it and the manga are part of the same series, not because every book is something that has happened in real life.

Also the crossovers aren't even a proper argument against canonicity because the series itself is meta and referential. The novel could be one sided canon for Katana Seven but still canon to Saiki. Gintama references and sometimes uses objects from other shounen manga in its humor and that doesn't disqualify those events from being canon to the series itself.

The biggest factor I feel is that Saiki directly references his ability in the manga as originating from the novel. That should be more than enough to seal the deal.

 

[ShionAH]

"I was just joking"

It was not a joke

 

[BadSystems]

For what it's worth, I agree with the CRT

 

[noninho]

OP seems reasonable, I agree