The Disastrous Novel of Saiki Kusuo (Last Attempt at Salvation)

[Rockysbalboa]

Agree

 

[Jozaysmith?]

i am just seeing the OP being aggressive a little to my role model (so i disagree ohhh)
Well tbh and frank here, the first statement is the only thing that can actually tag the LN and the manga together and all other things will just ve fourth wall breaking, promoting the LN from the manga isn't sufficient enough and seeing it's only one evidence you have on LN canonicity to the manga ig it can't work since you need more on the note, something very solid, the last CRT was how the story isn't connected to the on displayed on manga, which in turn makes sense, however if you can bring in author note on him specifically saying LN=manga (which will be redundant since the story differ), then ig that's a good point but for now your only good point is that "didn't you read the LN" for a point stated in the manga but due to incoherences you need more than that to actually make a valid point, so i stand by @DontTalkDT not because of favoritism but because of the valid points being passed on and also before this gets thread banned please be careful the way you talk here, someone might carry this to RVR and giving how you seemed a little hostile to DT you can get thread banned, this is just a friendly warning

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, so I obviously disagree.
"Saiki can break the fourth wall to hold his own manga" is no counter-argument to the fact that the prior stuff is no argument in favor of the matter.
It doesn't change the fact that the evidence presented in favor at no point actually shows that these things canonically happened.
You are combining "Saiki once held his own series as a book" and "a different book was shown in the series" to "the different book actually happened", which is not a valid inference. By that reasoning, every other book ever mentioned in the series would have to have happened as well, which is obviously not the case.

The novel doesn't exist in the manga as more than a 4th wall breaking gag. It inferes the same level of "canon" as a character turning to the reader and saying "check out the anime as well".

Just to present the full range of counter-evidence: For a start the novel isn't written by the author.

The novel mentioning the manga is not evidence that it is canon to the manga. (every spin-off and fanfiction does that)

Oh, and it is a crossover. A non-canon crossover to be specific:



So yeah, by all accounts there is not only no actualy evidence in favor of the events in the novel really having happened there is good reason to assume they are non-canon.


(Just tagging @Sir_Ovens to make sure this is seen @DarkDragonMedeus & @Damage3245 since they already evaluated this the last time)

This post makes sense to me.

 

[ShionAH]

Damage and DDM agree with DT

Who would have guessed?

We need more staff I guess. Can someone ping more people, like @Qawsedf234

 

[ShionAH]

someone might carry this to RVR and giving how you seemed a little hostile to DT you can get thread banned

I do know the possible consequences of my actions.

Role model? Wow.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is a bad argument because it relies on the context being stripped from the scenes themselves. He's referencing the novel because both it and the manga are part of the same series, not because every book is something that has happened in real life.

He references the novel to make a gag and promotion, just like he references many other series as a gag. This particular gag only works because he is in both series, yes, but that doesn't mean it's more meaningful of a 4th wall breaking reference. E.g. the J-Stars Victory Vs (crossover fighting game) reference about him using a move from the game also only works since he's in the game, but that doesn't mean that the reference indicates it's canon.

Also the crossovers aren't even a proper argument against canonicity because the series itself is meta and referential. The novel could be one sided canon for Katana Seven but still canon to Saiki. Gintama references and sometimes uses objects from other shounen manga in its humor and that doesn't disqualify those events from being canon to the series itself.

Yes, but for Gintama you wouldn't use the events of the referenced series for giving scaling and abilities. Saying his teleportation works as described is fine (and what we currently do), reference or not.

For a non-canon crossover I reserve more skepticism than one 4th wall breaking joke in many. E.g. Pit makes a reference in an official game that he has participated in Super Smash Bros. In Smash's story mode he defeats Tabuu, for example. So would you say Pit should scale to Multi-Continent level from that?
I wouldn't. Because crossovers have a strong tendency to not be canon. For declaring a crossover canon to a series I would like stronger evidence than a statement of "I used that weapon/ability in X crossover once" as part of a joke.

The biggest factor I feel is that Saiki directly references his ability in the manga as originating from the novel. That should be more than enough to seal the deal.

The ability doesn't originate from the novel. The manga itself establishes him having the ability before.
And he only says that one can find information on it in the novel. As in, he specifically says you can read about it in the novel. That's a statement about the real life situation, that's true regardless of canon. It's roughly like a character in a manga going "You can see me shoot fireballs in the anime!" or something.

 

[ShionAH]

The ability doesn't originate from the novel. The manga itself establishes him having the ability before.

Thats not entirely truthful. Saiki can do this and the explanation is literally “the novel”

Ping @Qawsedf234 and some other staff to settle this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thats not entirely truthful. Saiki can do this and the explanation is literally “the novel”

The novel has an explanation, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't originate from there. The manga author didn't decide to copy new abilities from the novel author, is my point.

Currently it's 3:1. I can tag more.
@Qawsedf234 @Agnaa @Mr._Bambu @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Deagonx @LordTracer @UchihaSlayer96
Read the OP and this post if you are willing to do the evaluation. Optionally the debate following the latter post as well and my response to Sir_Ovens.

@AdamVhenJP Try not to choke on it.

Atagnoizing people like that is not acceptable btw. Official warning. Calm down.

 

[ShionAH]

The novel has an explanation, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't originate from there. The manga author didn't decide to copy new abilities from the novel author, is my point.

Can you send me the scan where he states this upside of teleportation specifically? Without using the novel as evidence

I want to see where you got that from

 

[DontTalkDT]

Can you send me the scan where he states this upside of teleportation specifically? Without using the novel as evidence

I want to see where you got that from

I will give you that while teleportation is an established power and that many of his limits vanish when he removes his limiter is established, that this particular limit vanishes is (as far as I can think of) not established before that chapter, yes.

 

[ShionAH]

That this particular limit vanishes is (as far as I can think of) not established before that chapter, yes.

Thank you for confirming. So we agree that this limit vanishing is completely based on the novel correct?

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

How are these scans real writing, what the hell

It seems to me that the references made to the various bits of media are all gags. I don't know the broader tone of the novel and this may well not be the deal-breaker I think it is, but if this is the single greatest bit of evidence in favor of considering the events of the novel canon (rather than, say, the actual events being referred to outside of fourth wall breaking), then I'd be inclined to vote against this as well.

Yes, yes, evil staff cabal, biased voting, etc etc. I really tried to consider your position, I just can't agree with it. It requires far, far too many allowances that seem inconsistent. Sorry.

 

[ShionAH]

How are these scans real writing, what the hell

It seems to me that the references made to the various bits of media are all gags.

The problem I have is that scan and the general manga have no other page that explains that limitation.

We literally cannot know that unless we reas the novel, if it wasnt canon then it wouldnt even affect it.

Yes, yes, evil staff cabal, biased voting, etc etc. I really tried to consider your position, I just can't agree with it. It requires far, far too many allowances that seem inconsistent. Sorry.

My sarcastic comments were directed at Staff that very clearly are biased.

When a high ranking mod makes a downgrade on ur verse and then 2 mods agree with him in a span of 5 messages it gets annoying for blue users.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I get that it can be frustrating, especially when most folks are content to say how they vote and not elaborate on it or discuss further.

But. I also consider non-staff who regard staff votes as manipulation frustrating, though. Two sides of a coin, so on and so forth.

You'll have to forgive my own sarcasm in light of that. Or don't. I'm not a cop.

 

[ShionAH]

I

Basically my argument is, Saiki would not know or use the novel as an explanation if it wasnt canon. Saying its a “joke” isnt really enough in this case for the sole fact that the entire manga and the series is comedy.

This ability is never seen ever in any part of the manga other than novel, yet it is shown that it affected the series

Heck the reality warping ability of Saiki is literally just the author making fun of generic anime worlds

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What are you referring to by "ability" btw? There's a few things in this thread that could be referring to. I'd also wait, I suppose, for DT's rebuttal on that, once you clarify.

 

[ShionAH]

What are you referring to by "ability" btw? There's a few things in this thread that could be referring to.

While teleportation is an established power and that many of his limits vanish when he removes his limiter is established, that this particular limit vanishes is (as far as I can think of) not established before that chapter, yes.

DontTalk already agreed that this ability is only established in the novel and Kusuo uses it in the manga directly stating he can do it because of the novel

 

[Reiner04]

How is this any different than MCU referencing Marvel comics in SHE HULK yet they're not conon to each other since there's not a evidence that those Marvel comics exists as Universes/worlds within MCU but just as stories? I'd like to know that before I give my opinion.

 

[ShionAH]

I'd like to know that before I give my opinion.

Saiki gains an ability in manga that uses the novel as explanation.

Its like “You can teleport with no limits, why? Its because of the from the novel ”

 

[Reiner04]

Saiki gains an ability in manga that uses the novel as explanation.

Its like “You can teleport with no limits, why? Its because of the from the novel ”

.... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh, that's literally what happened in MCU. Anything else?

 

[ShionAH]

.... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh

What? If the novel isnt canon then Saiki wouldnt have that ability. Nor would he use it for explanation.

I dont know what you want lol

 

[Reiner04]

What? If the novel isnt canon then Saiki wouldnt have that ability. Nor would he use it for explanation.

I dont know what you want lol

Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")

Yup. I disagree.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Reiner make sense to me, neutral with leaning towards disagree.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")

Yup. I disagree.

While I'm neutral in this discussion you clearly just twisted his words entirely.

 

[ShionAH]

Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")

Pretty sure the comics are just background stuff.

Also isnt this whataboutism

 

[Reiner04]

While I'm neutral in this discussion you clearly just twisted his words entirely.

Which is it using novel as reference to explain the ability? Was i supposed to say "Yup, it makes sense, he has lived 2 lives one in novel and other in manga and thus gained this ability from novel and explained it in manga"? My apologies. I disagree with such an interpretation. If it's anything other than novel reference feel free to get to it.

 

[Reiner04]

Also isnt this whataboutism

Hmmm. It was an example to explain difference btw what is reference and what is "evidence for canonicity". As long as u get it. There's no need to go over such examples.

 

[ShionAH]

Yup, it makes sense, he has lived 2 lives one in novel and other in manga and thus gained this ability from novel and explained it in manga

What?

Thats not what I even said

Saiki knows about the novels events and so does his brother. Both of them explain Kusuos ability with literally "ooh the novel!"

This is basically fighting your friend, he punches good and you are like "How?" then both of you say "Ooh 5th of july 2010 yeah that even got you strong" or some shit.

Anyways I will put you on the vote eitherway.

 

[Reiner04]

Saiki knows about the novels events and so does his brother. Both of them explain Kusuos ability with literally "ooh the novel!"

4th wall break and novel reference, yeah.

 

[ShionAH]

4th wall break and novel reference, yeah.

Its a 4th wall break that wouldnt make sense if the novel isnt canon at all.

Whatever I added you to disagree, dont need to waste time and messages.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

What is your next move @ShionAH probably drop this and try again? Or personally have a decent conversation in private with @DontTalkDT?, from when he disagreed everyone else only saw your flaw and nothing else so Ig its HIM you're gonna speak to

 

[Reiner04]

DontTalk still continues to make the most sense on this.

Didn't Damage disagreed too? Why is his vote not counted.

 

[ShionAH]

What is your next move @ShionAH probably drop this and try again?

Why. I am waiting for Bambu.

Or personally have a decent conversation in private with @DontTalkDT?

We already talked above? I dont see what you mean. He simply disagrees, we did this several times. I cannot change his mind and its okay.

from when he disagreed everyone else only saw your flur and nothing else so Ig its HIM you're gonna speak to

Wha- flur?

What does that mean

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Why. I am waiting for Bambu.

Good luck with that the thread has already passed the limit
Wiki rules is more than 2 admins/mods disagrees then the thread itself is invalid, pretty sure there's DT, damage and dark dragon medeus bambu agreeing at this point will not save you since you need to find like 3 more admins to counter the disagrees, plus if he says neutral then its also off the hook and this should be closed, if he disagrees then don't even bother and just close this, you'll just be stressing your own soul trying to argue further

We already talked above? I dont see what you mean. He simply disagrees, we did this several times. I cannot change his mind and its okay.

You just have bad communication skills, there are several ways to handle this but since its not my verse then do what you want Ig.

Wha- flur?

What does that mean

Flaw, its a typo

 

[ShionAH]

Good luck with that the thread has already passed the limit

Send me the link for that rule

Why do you want me to close it so prematurely? Damage didnt even read my arguments even though I doubt he'll change his mind since uhm uhm...reasons.

Bambu is still thinking since he misunderstood my argument. If he disagrees thats fine I will just wait for other mods. I dont see the point in just crying and closing because DT and his friends disagreed lol

 

[Jozaysmith?]

do what you want ig

 

[Edutyn]

.... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh, that's literally what happened in MCU. Anything else?

In the official Character Guide Book several locations of the novel appear, and in the manga also appear the same locations.

Guide Book: Hinoki Ramen Restaurant
In the manga the same location appears, but I can't find the chapter in which it does. I only have this panel

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If he specifically stated that the clarification of his ability is in the novels then that clearly means the novels are canon