The Current Ruling on YouTube profiles and other issues 2

[Wokistan]

Continued from here. The thread was bumped after a month of inactivity and is now very disorganized, so we need a revitalization to set more concrete and defined rules as apparently the others were not enough.

So, there have been numerous issues brought up in this thread regarding our ruling on actors and stage personas. The problem mentioned was that various rules and guidelines regarding profiles that this bans are A. Massive double standards, B. Very arbitrary, and C. Extremely vague. This thread is intended to discuss if changes should be made and the specifics of those changes.

The rules in question:

• All characters in VS Battles wiki profiles should originate within actual stories, from notable or popular works.
• Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, music videos, memes, stage personas, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead.
• It is also prohibited to create profiles for fictionalised stage personas for other reasons, whether these have their origins in music videos, educational programs, or otherwise: For one thing, it is inappropriate for largely underage wiki members to discuss which real people that would hypothetically be most capable of killing each other, and for another, a vast majority of these artists are extremely willing to file lawsuits against anybody who uses their brand for which they own intellectual property rights, regardless whether or not these are meant to be used for commercial or fair use purposes. It would be recommended and preferable to avoid adding such profiles to Joke Battles as well.

(Note that the thread in question contains a lot of context for this discussion, and it would likely be extremely beneficial to look it over in some capacity)

At least for the time being, this is Staff Only. If you wish to contribute but are not staff, please send your proposed comment to another staff member, or obtain their permission. Rather not do this, but a conclusion must be reached, and this helps the thread stay more organized.

Edit:

Here are the current, updated, versions of the Editing Rules that we came up with after a long discussion in the previous thread:

• The VS Battles Wiki is, first and foremost, a fictional character indexing site. All featured characters in our profiles should originate within actual stories, from notable or popular works. A story includes a plot, a fictional setting, and having a defined canon. At the very least, the setting should be entirely fictional in nature, with no true bearing over the real world.
• Do not add any original or fan-made characters to the wiki. If you wish to create any original/fan-made character profiles, feel free to do so in the FC/OC wiki.
• Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, memes, YouTube personalities, reality television, talk shows, music videos, stage personas, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead. Take note that there is obviously a difference between a profile written as a joke, and the character itself being automatically funny.
• Take note that we are not experienced lawyers, so it is hard to precisely cover every angle, but to explain further, we are trying to keep the wiki reasonably streamlined and focused, to not allow in real people. Stage personas, such as YouTube and TV show hosts, tend to lack a 4th wall between them and the audience, and are not explicitly fictional in nature, as part of an actual story with a plot, regardless of special effects. They are real people who are affecting a behavioural change/acting out of character relative to their true personalities, but the setting is otherwise unchanged from reality and not fictional in nature. Characters are separate from the real actors portraying them, and are not just variations of themselves.
• It is also prohibited to create profiles for fictionalised stage personas for other reasons, whether these have their origins in music videos, educational programs, or otherwise: For one thing, it is inappropriate for largely underage wiki members to discuss which real people that would hypothetically be most capable of killing each other, and for another, a vast majority of these artists are extremely willing to file lawsuits against anybody who uses their brand for which they own intellectual property rights, regardless whether or not these are meant to be used for commercial or fair use purposes. It would be recommended and preferable to avoid adding such profiles to Joke Battles as well.
• Corporate mascots and advertisement characters are not part of fictional storylines, regardless of feats in commercials and similar. It is preferable to not allow any incoherent figments without substance to be featured here. However, if they have officially published comicbooks, games, etcetera to scale from, they can probably be included.
• The only exception to these rules is Real Life, which serves as more of a reference for feats and common weapons, events, and animals, rather than being an actual verse.
• Characters that originate from fictional canons or franchises, and share the same names as their real world counterparts are allowed, on the condition that they fulfill the requirements mentioned above.
• Preferably avoid adding character profiles that may be inappropriate or perceived to be in poor taste. This may include characters, weapons, etcetera, that are ill-suited for a statistics-indexing wiki, due to having no reliable feats, or ones from media which may be too controversial or otherwise unnecessary to be featured. This includes pages that would strictly be written as a joke, and as such more suitably belong in the Joke Battles wiki. Although pages for mature verses like Berserk and Demonbane are allowed, they must have coherent stories that are not strictly focused on sex, and the pages have to be kept clean, without erotic images.

Sir Ovens also wrote a draft page for more elaborate new regulations here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Sir_Ovens/sandbox/Profile_Addition_Standards

 

[Yobo_Blue]

How does one obtain permission?

 

[Wokistan]

Just ask someone on a wall or something. Leaving yours up so people can see the route.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I was never in favor of Youtuber Profiles to begin with.

 

[Wokistan]

Anyways, my personal take:

Vs Battles Wiki is a site based on indexing feats for fiction, but remember that our profiles are based off of indexing consistent feats, hence the existence of the concept of Outliers. Many of these youtube series do not maintain any form of continuity. They are a series of unconnected skits that people have composited into profiles, and I feel that this is a very bad way to handle this. A complete lack of continuity is antithetical to the goal of indexing consistency, since consistency does not even exist internally and as such I do not think these types of profiles should be allowed.

TLDR a regular story that just happens to be on youtube is fine, but making files out of like game reviewers and stuff based on jokes isn't

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I say what I (probably) said somewhere else: the medium doesn't matter. What matters is the cohesiveness of the narrative. Which is case by case, not something that can have a huge rule slapped on it.

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, yes, I would have disagree with youtube profiles too. I expected to see Dross in a ytph, but as a profile?

In short, we only go with combative works as far I'm aware.

 

[Wokistan]

We can enact a huge rule saying "continuity of some sort must exist" or whatever. Cohesiveness of a narrative is determined by things we are able to define, after all.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yeah. But going "No Youtube profiles because they lack continuity" doesn't work.

 

[Wokistan]

The combative works thing isn't exactly the most consistent with other mediums.

"No Youtube profiles because they lack continuity" and "No YouTube profiles that lack continuity" aren't the same though

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, how many youtubers are part of an actual story with continuity and not a bunch of random stuff and gameplays? I would understand that someone makes profile of that comic involving The Rubius as protagonist, but not he in the real life.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, for starters, I want to address the issue with having a lack of consistency in plot, as that should be something that is universal, not limited to YouTube, as some people have wanted to have it. I'm not a fan of double standards, and having things like Looney Tunes or Popeye (Verse) when they lack the same sort of consistency is definitely a double standard. Combative works should also not be the bar, as our primary purpose is indexing over VS Battles.

Basically, this rule should either work with what we already have or extend beyond YouTube if either of those are to be implemented.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Following for now, YouTube profiles have a place here but we've gotten pretty lenient with what profiles are allowed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No reasons to specific "Youtube profiles". No any profiles that lack continuity. Sure youtube has more of such verses, but we shouldn't discriminate specifically against those kind of profiles.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, how many youtubers are part of an actual story with continuity and not a bunch of random stuff and gameplays? I would understand that someone makes profile of that comic involving The Rubius as protagonist, but not he in the real life.

There are a few who have movies and games and such. Making profiles for those would be fine imo, but I don't think they should be like "this ties into this random skit from 2009"

 

[Wokistan]

Yobo commenting is fine

"No reasons to specific "Youtube profiles". No any profiles that lack continuity. Sure youtube has more of such verses, but we shouldn't discriminate specifically against those kind of profiles. "

I actually agree with this. Wasn't sure how much support it'd get due to applying to stuff like bugs bunny but him being composited just doesn't seem great and seems more like JBW territory.

 

[Antoniofer]

To be honest, I didn't agree with purely cartoony verses neither, its just a bunch of random episodes with no real continuity. People do ot really knowns to tell tye difference between actual feats and toon force.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

TLDR a regular story that just happens to be on youtube is fine, but making files out of like game reviewers and stuff based on jokes isn't

I'd also like to broaden that to include stuff like The Nameless One (CalebCity). Continuity is a good line to draw, but stuff that straddles the line should be out of the picture as well.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I still maintain that Looney Tunes are fairly different from youtube shorts. Plus we're going composite anyway so it's weird in the first place.

 

[Crabwhale]

I just wanna say right off the bat:

For one thing, it is inappropriate for largely underage wiki members to discuss which real people that would hypothetically be most capable of killing each other

We have live-action television and movies here and they inspire no controversy whatsoever. So what if they are characters who are portrayed by real actors? They still tangentially exist and by the wording of that rule, it should be controversial and downright forbidden for them to engage in battle for fear of these supposed youths.

a vast majority of these artists are extremely willing to file lawsuits against anybody who uses their brand for which they own intellectual property rights, regardless whether or not these are meant to be used for commercial or fair use purposes.

This is implying these artists are going to be so incredibly trigger happy and obsessed that they will instantly sue. If they did, sure, we'd have to fold, but can you really imagine a YouTuber filing a lawsuit for use of their image, a YouTuber that, if they're popular enough to warrant a profile, likely deal with hundreds if not thousands of posts using their image? Also, a lawsuit is something that can happen with any of the profiles we have on here. Someone might get pissy about their brand being "misrepresented" in their eyes and do something about it. Having a person here is no more dangerous than having an actor, and I bloody well don't think we're scared of having actors here are we?

But, I suppose we're not really here to argue the rules. If we're talking about what should be accepted, then anything that has a genuine continuity is free game in my opinion. I don't know where parodies would fit in that (fairly certain Minecraft animation series that exist have their own "continuity" but I sure as shit wouldn't accept them here), but this is a general guideline to follow.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

There are a few who have movies and games and such. Making profiles for those would be fine imo, but I don't think they should be like "this ties into this random skit from 2009"

Even then, there are a number of YouTubers whose random skits are usually well tied together in a cohesive story.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Additionally, I think we should also make sure to look into the context of certain appearances and skits, as some might contain fictional characters while others are simply examples of Immersion, and the difference is a important one that can mean the difference between a fan work and a standalone verse.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

To go back to a recent thread on MGQ, it's not up to us to decide what's too inappropriate or in poor taste to be here on purely subjective grounds.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think composites of either type, be they The Nameless One (CalebCity) or Bugs Bunny (Composite) are really the best way to handle the profiles. Seems better suited to joke battles.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No I defintiively think that Bugs Bunny is one of the better example of a character that should have a composite, given our purpose we have with composites.

 

[Wokistan]

But then what would be the purpose of exiling youtube skit dudes that similarly lack continuity if they'd just get composited?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The rulings for composites have never been clearly made.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It depends on the ways the skit in question are presented.

Individual Looney Tunes shorts, even if, well, short, still takes place in a defined universe with defined characters. It's definitively still a fictional story in a fictional setting.

Can we really consider a series of cut away gags from a show that's otherwise not fiction as being defined universes with defined characters and thus worthy of being composited together? Personally I wouldn't think so.

 

[DontTalkDT]

There are also a few other things in regards to youtube profiles one has to think about.

For example, we don't currently require any sort of minimum volume for a fictional work/character. Are we fine with characters that have a 1 minute fictional work?

Another difficulty to consider with youtube in particular is that the border between OC's and proper notable work is very fluid. E.g. there are popular videos of extended continuity where people tell about their D&D OC's. On which side of the line do these go?

And when is a video or creator sufficiently popular for the work to be notable?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't wanna dick around but by definition a D&D OC wouldn't be allowed anyway for rather obvious reasons.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I've discussed this before off site, and I think for anything that is not a serialed production like Red vs Blue, or Brandon Rogers, it should be subjected to some form of quality control like we do with SCP. Perhaps a subscriber boundary they have to cross in order to be considered legitamate. This would at least deter people from simply creating thier own youtube account and posting whatever they want so they can make it to the wiki.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't really like the idea of having an arbitrary numbered limit like that honestly. I'm all for "quality" control, just not in that manner.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't wanna dick around but by definition a D&D OC wouldn't be allowed anyway for rather obvious reasons.

Technically, there is no rule against originals stories based on other fictions. (As opposed to fanfiction)

Like, one can't use scale from the D&D influences, but, if I have my funfacts straight, Overlord essentially is also just (more or less) a single player D&D campaign someone decided to write down and make its own thing.

That's besides the point, though.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well yeah. But going "No Youtube profiles because they lack continuity" doesn't work.

Actually it would. Just throw out "Youtube" and you have our standard definition for years now.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah. That's what I said right after, lol

 

[Moritzva]

The problem comes whenever an exception is made to Youtuber Profiles or similar matters, naturally things scale out of control as some people are unable to use common sense about what to add and what not to add.

There have been a lot of profiles added as of late that, universally, seem far more fitting for Jokes Battles Wiki than not, even outside of Youtuber profiles. (ASDF, I'm looking at you.) Strict guidelines certainly have to be made.

Youtuber profiles need clear continuity, a clear separation from the actual person playing them, a sense of quality, and a cohesive plot outside of a series of gags. That should be the bare, very bare minimum. That's how I stand.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Smosh does appear to be all over the place and there aren't really consistent power showings. If you take AVGN for example, he has a bunch of feats and is regularly confronted by supervillains that he has to fight. So it stands to reason for him to have a profile. AVGN also has an episode guide, a feature film, and a video game series all of which are canon and published by Cinemassacre. So AVGN does follow into the Published works category as do some of our Newgrounds series profiles.

Anyway, we did have a discussion at allowing profiles originating from a YouTube series; but the point is there needs to actually be a continuity for it to apply. Two guys just messing around and coming across gags while having no real episode guide among other things isn't exactly a continuity.

 

[Kepekley23]

Saying something is "all over the place" and defending AVGN in the same paragraph doesn't really sit well.

AVGN is among the most inconsistent series in fiction, and this is coming from the guy who first suggested to allow it here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

But Smosh can't even be said to happen in the same universe every video. Besides the Food Battle series, there isn't much continuity between each video. Moreover, each video plays out like an SNL skit, so if we don't allow those, we definitely should not allow Smosh.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Ovens, and I know AVGN and Nostalgia Critic have inconsistencies and all that and we obviously won't cross scale, but there are at least episodes guides and stories. They're a bit like South Park, Looney Toons, and to some extent Marvel and DC Comics. But Smosh is more like SNL. And I'm pretty sure many have suggested making an AVGN profile long before you even joined the site @Kepekley.