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The Crimson King (Dark Tower) vs Destiny of the Endless (DC)

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The reason here why CK will win is by assuming his plot manip would work on Destiny.It probably won't because in a way Destiny is like the embodiment of the Presence's plan so it will turn into whether CK can overpower the Presence's plan and he probably cant

If Dis uses Plot Manip on Destiny then that means he's changing the plan of the Presence. Destiny represents fate of everything, everything is predetermined by the Presence so if you want to do that then you have to prove that Dis is comparable to the Presence to oppose his plan
 
Jockey-1337 said:
Kingverse Gods haven't fails/weaknesses.
Click to expand...
^This is pure NLF.

However...

The complete destruction of infinite-upon-infinite universes is something the King is capable of surviving/regenerating from, and he is capable of rearranging all of said universes, dimensions, et al to his own liking.

Gan's fate manipulation is actually extremely similar to what you've just outlined. Fate as a concept within DT's verse (henceforth referred to by its in-universe name, ka) is nothing more than the will of Gan, and is capable of affecting and even dictating everything within said verse:

___

"They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy." - Excerpt from DT7: The Dark Tower

...

"Ka -- the word you think of as 'destiny,' Eddie, although the actual meaning is much more complex and hard to define, as is almost always the case with words of the High Speech." -Excerpt from DT3: The Waste Lands

...

[What you call freedom of choice is part of what we call ka, the great wheel of being] -Excerpt from Insomnia

___

His plot manipulation in and of itself is also well within this realm, as he is the 'author' of all that exists, the source of every story in the verse, and the creator of all manifestations of life and experience within the verse itself:

___

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities,"

...

"The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was." -Excerpt from IT

___

Gan's power reaches such an extent that he has generated entire universes where works of fiction are directly correspondent to another reality. As a direct example, The DT series itself (and indeed, Stephen King's entire body of work) is considered fiction within the verse:

___

"I'm Gan or possessed by Gan, I dont know which, maybe theres no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But its not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but its not, ka is never satisfied, greedy old ka...." -Excerpt from DT6: Song of Susannah

...

It was a photocopy of a poem by Robert Browning. King had written the poet's name in his half-script, half-printing above the title. Susannah had read some of Browning's dramatic monologues in college, but she wasn't familiar with this poem. She was, however, extremely familiar with its subject; the title of the poem was "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came." It was narrative in structure, the rhyme-scheme balladic (a-b-b-a-a-b), and thirty-four stanzas long. Each stanza was headed with a Roman numeral. Someone-King, presumably-had circled stanzas I, II, XIII, XIV, and XVI. "Read the marked ones," he said hoarsely, "because I can only make out a word here and there, and I would know what they say, would know it very well."

"Stanza the First," she said, then had to clear her throat. It was dry. Outside the wind howled and the naked overhead bulb flickered in its flyspecked fixture.

"My first thought was, he lied in every word,

That hoary cripple, with malicious eye Askance to watch the working of his lie On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford Suppression of the glee, that pursed and scored Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby."

"Collins," Roland said. "Whoever wrote that spoke of Collins as sure as King ever spoke of our ka-tet in his stories!" -Excerpt from DT7: The Dark Tower

...

"No writer is Gan - no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan.......The prophets of Gan." -Excerpt from DT7: The Dark Tower

...

"Would you risk destroying that world as well as this, and the other worlds sai King has touched with his imagination, and drawn from? For it was not he that created them, you know. To peek in Gans navel does not make one Ga, although many creative people seem to think so. Would you risk it all?" -Excerpt from DT7: The Dark Tower

___

This obviously does not mean that DC's entire multiverse is contained within the DT realm, and that's not the point I'm here to make. What I am saying is; every in-verse work of fiction contained within DT was spun, not by innate powers inherent to the writers themselves, but by powers granted to them by Gan. All possibilities within DT were also created by Gan, as well as the entire concept of fate within the verse.

And the Crimson King, while not on this level, is still very much capable of fighting against Gan in this respect:

___

"Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways." -Excerpt from DT7: The Dark Tower

...

[He's at the Civic Center now. His mother, whose life you and Lois also saved this morning, got a call from her babysitter less than an hour ago, saying she'd cut herself badly on a piece of glass and wouldn't be able to take care of the boy tonight after all. By then it was too late to find another sitter, of course, and this woman has been determined for weeks to see Susan Day ... to shake her hand, even give her a hug, if possible. She idolizes the Day woman.]

Ralph, who remembered the fading bruises on her face, supposed that was an idolatry he could understand. He understood something else even better: the babysitter's cut hand had been no accident. Something was determined to place the little boy with the shaggyblond bangs and the smoke-reddened eyes at the Civic Center, and was willing to move heaven and earth to do it. His mother had taken him not because she was a bad parent, but because she was as subject to human nature as anyone else. She hadn't wanted to miss her one chance at seeing Susan Day, that was all. - Excerpt from Insomnia

...

"I'll be a vampire, a slave to him. His scribe, maybe. His pet writer."

"Whose?"

"The Lord of the Spiders. The Crimson King. Tower-pent." -Excerpt from DT6: Song of Susannah

___

Not only can the King oppose ka and rearrange it to suit his purpose, but he is also capable of enslaving the writers of in-universe fictional stories in order to change the plot of their corresponding realities. Unless Destiny himself has shown to be capable of overpowering a being who can in his own turn oppose the creator of fate itself/the writer above all writers/the being who simultaneously embodies and transcends all that exists within his creation, as well as a being who can assume control over the writers themselves, then I don't see how he can actually physically defeat the Crimson King. Especially when we already have to take into account the fact that 'all of creation being destroyed' is still not enough to put him down for good.

And that's also without factoring in High 1-B hax.
 
Also, sorry for the sheer volume of text up there. The nature of DT as being a novel series means there's a lot to post when taking directly from the series, and I wanted to be thorough.

EDIT: Decided to bold the most important parts of each quote. Should make finding your way through it much easier.
 
[http:// https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111305346/5526708-b1.jpg https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111305346/5526708-b1.jpg]

[1]

[2]

The Monitors are writers, they are story generators themselves.

DC itself claims contains all fictions.But we both know its bs so lets leave that behind

"I suggested to Dan if you imagine like a champagne glass and you picture all these bubbles rising and giving form to each other, that's what the real multiverse looks like. It's a much bigger scale. It's infinite. These bubbles, there's so many of them out there that there's the Marvel multiverse and there's the DC multiverse and over there's the Archie multiverse. I figure it gives us a scope that every comics universe exists somewhere in there. But the DC Universe is the one we're familiar with - the Orrery of Worlds, as we've called it - and it's floating in this source with multiple multiverses."

like I said Destiny is the Destiny of Creation.He is the Presence's plan and even Michael and Lucifer cant change Destiny.Because Destiny is set by the Presence, Lucifer cant change Destiny

That's why Lucifer hates Destiny.He is the personification of the Presence's deterministic approach on creation

Gan should be well above baseline 1-A but I doubt that he can contend with The Presence.I doubt that CK a High 1-B, however powerful he is can change something that even 1-A like Lucifer cant change.For him to do that then he needs to oppose the will of the Presence

The most likely outcome here is inconclusive.I doubt that CK can get rid of Destiny
 
Anyway, I already know about Gan.I used to defend him in debates in Comicvine because most of the people there thinks that Thanos w HOTU stomps and Pre Retcon beyonder>>>everything in fiction.Which is ridiculous
 
The Monitors are story generators, yes. But creators and masters of fate as a concept, they are not. And if I'm reading into it properly, they are also nowhere near Gan in terms of the potency of their plot manipulation powers.

Going by Dax Novu, who was the most powerful out of his race until his death via the Overvoid, The Monitors generate stories, but are merely infinite-dimensional beings in terms of actual power. Gan outright embodies infinite dimensions while simultaneously transcending them all to a vastly unknown degree, and generates all stories, across all universes, across all dimensions with nothing but his own will. The gap there would be High 1-B's equivalent to the difference between a 10-B and a 2-A, and that's if we're lowballing Gan to High 1-B in the first place.
 
TheSandman31 said:
Anyway, I already know about Gan.I used to defend him in debates in Comicvine because most of the people there thinks that Thanos w HOTU stomps and Pre Retcon beyonder>>>everything in fiction.Which is ridiculous
Click to expand...
I straight-up almost spit my drink when I read this.
 
Its me Sandman31 Yeah.But he won't be able to get rid of Destiny when 1-As cant. So inconclusive
 
Hm? What was wrong with your other account?

Anywho...I do suppose you have a good point there. The King has hax on his side and more than enough raw power to keep up, but looking at the evidence again does give the impression that Destiny may survive despite that. The likelihood is that this would result in a battle between two beings who, for all intents and purposes here, are both 'unstoppable forces' and 'immovable objects' at the same time, each.

I think I'll switch to inconclusive as well. Very solid points and arguments were made here.
 
You also edit-ninja'd me while I was typing the bit about Gan being vastly more powerful than the Monitors, so I didn't see the point about 1-As not being able to end Destiny until just a moment ago. Just wanted to point that out. lol
 
I believe we're at three for inconclusive now.

All of the King's votes and all of the King's me were more or less agreeing with my own reasoning, also. Probably shouldn't be counting those at this point tbh.
 
Well...after reading through all the replies, I think I'll change to inconclusive as well. Both have extremely potent hax and Abilities that seem to be able to deal with each other due to their nature. So that'll be 4 for inconclusive then.
 
Y'know, it's funny. The strongest High 1-B in the DCU is a force of purpose which can oppose 1-As, and the strongest High 1-B in The Dark Tower (assuming Gan is 1-A instead of just being a ridiculously powerful High 1-B) is a force of chaos which can do the same.

And going by the above, they both stalemate each other. That's...surprisingly ironic.
 
I haven't actually just wanted to see the debate a bit before voteing but after seeing it I think I'm gonna vote inconclusive as well
 
^Gonna assume that counts as 'for reasons above' unless someone says otherwise.

Five votes for inconclusive now.
 
Definitely five, then.

Also, I just realized that the two of them are even dressed similarly.
 
For some reason this thread is sounding like an orderly and poetic version of the Doomsday vs 682 thread in terms of the matchup in it
 
It was certainly just as back-and-forth as this matchup was, I'll say. Also had numerous factors that led to it being inconclusive, just like this one.

Too bad 682 ruined the result by performing a 4-A feat mere days after the match was added/
 
At least with this matchup, we know damn well that neither of them is going to be upgraded right under our noses.

The Endless's tiers are set in stone at this point, and the Crimson King's run as a villain ended over a decade ago. (And the comics' cycle is most certainly not going to make him any more powerful than he was before)
 
Yeah, that's always nice. But anywho, we're kind of derailing the thread at this point.
 
So we have 1 for Dis, 0 for Destiny and 5 for inconclusive. Updated.
 
5 for inconclusive.

Myself, Sandman31, Js, Warren and Siamese.

Also, the only votes left for Dis are FRA votes, so they probably shouldn't be counted. (As they were referring to my own reasoning, which I have changed.)
 
I'll still leave them until they come back to this thread, though. They aren't hurting the outcome of the matchup in any way.
 
Next up will likely be King vs Death of the Endless, for the reasons of her claiming Destiny after the end of creation.
 
Yeah, it is. From what I can recall about DC's cosmology, Destiny is actually a slightly stronger High 1-B than her. Canonically.

And considering the entire reason for this stalemate is that the King can't 'rewrite' or 'out-fate' Destiny himself due to the latter's function (just as Destiny himself can't overpower the King or do anything that will destroy him for good), I feel like the Dis sort of walks free against Death. That, or it just ends up being another inconclusive.
 
Tbh, his plot manipulation might be a little troublesome to that, not to mention plot shields and ultra-potent death manip, so we'll see.
 
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