Churchill
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Waifu dreams destroyed
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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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Has the definition of superiority ever been out right defined on this site?
I think leaving that definition vague serves as a problem.
I think leaving that definition vague serves as a problem.
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Well the problem is that dimensional superiority is through size, while the likes of Reality-Fiction superiority is through realness. So their exists no one explanation beyond equalising two distinct concepts, which this is all about fixing.
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Superiority still needs to be defined. Whether it is superiority via size or realness. Other wise it is just an empty word. What exactly does it mean to be superior?
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Wel I wasn't around when this first started, but I imagine it was an attempt to "balance" the two concepts, and then the wiki grew to have a bit of a math fixation which put extra emphasis on the likes of uncountable infinites and sets.
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Well in size it means to have greater size; to be bigger on the level of uncountable infinite. For realness it means to be more real; to see the reality beneath yours as fiction.
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From my memory
It was first dimensions.
Then qualitative superiority for verses that did not have any concrete mentions of dimensions.
Then R>F was introduced.
So it wasn’t all made together. It was put together over time.
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Nah, Umineko has been a key part of the system since its beginning, Reality-Fiction has always been a thing. Honestly, this is merely me guessing without too much evidence backing it up, but it's probably the likes of Marvel, Lovecraft, and Tenchi Muyo that we have the focus on dimensions and attempt to equalise them.
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Technically, it may be 3d in it's own perspective of its "real" world, but to the reality it sees as fiction, no amount of dimensions can define it
Ovy7
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Oh, I know, but I still find it interesting.
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To be fair, there is a difference between the dimensionality of your body is different from your power levels.
Has there been a blog or post explaining what qualitative superiority means? I hear that word thrown around a lot but no page that defines itm
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I don't think so. if you look at Beatrice's past edits. Her past tiers were for dimensional scaling based on the language.
It still doesn't actually answer what exactly is superiority. Saying, "being bigger in sizer is being superior" or "being more real is being superior" doesn't actually answer what superiority is.
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Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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DC also had a hand in that with the common 5D imp villains.
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Hey! You can voice your points here
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I didn't understand the point of immutability in tier 0, for example in the case of omnipresent characters they necessarily change and even so it doesn't disqualify them and no work I know demonstrates true immutability even in the case of characters that are not omnipresent, moving is change, thinking is change, etc.
To be immutable the character cannot even be a character in the first place.
And worse, you can't become a Tier 0, you always have to be and how will concepts that emerged after this character apply to him? If they are applied to him then he has changed and if they are not applicable to him then he cannot be quantified and is also not tier 0.
And isn't the concept of immutability itself something that was born after the character? So why does it matter?
To be immutable the character cannot even be a character in the first place.
And worse, you can't become a Tier 0, you always have to be and how will concepts that emerged after this character apply to him? If they are applied to him then he has changed and if they are not applicable to him then he cannot be quantified and is also not tier 0.
And isn't the concept of immutability itself something that was born after the character? So why does it matter?
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I'll give my opinion on this.
I'd prefer a tiering system that's more linear and has a continuity and a link rather than a tiering system with a disconnect and link breakage for higher powers just because "meh, bigger = better"
It's like saying that character A is equal to or bigger than character B because A is at the pinnacle of its cosmology despite character B's cosmology being bigger. There's a clear break in continuity! And thus, makes it easy to wank
I'd prefer a tiering system that's more linear and has a continuity and a link rather than a tiering system with a disconnect and link breakage for higher powers just because "meh, bigger = better"
It's like saying that character A is equal to or bigger than character B because A is at the pinnacle of its cosmology despite character B's cosmology being bigger. There's a clear break in continuity! And thus, makes it easy to wank
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I don't understand.
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"Character A vs Character B" scenarios are often hard to understand because you can just throw around elements that suits what you're trying to say without clear elaboration.
If you wanna cite examples, it's better to simply compare to verses.
I do kinda get what they're saying though.
If you wanna cite examples, it's better to simply compare to verses.
I do kinda get what they're saying though.
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It's basically like saying featherine solos scp or mathiverse because both uses math and are more linear and because featherine transcends dimensions DESPITE the fact umineko has a lesser cosmology and hierarchial structure than both
Hasty12345
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verse wars aside, the point here is that Ultima believes certain types of transcendences award higher stats/attributes than what mathematics is able to quantify.
the idea we shouldn't change the tier system to maintain SCP vs Umineko banter is laughable.
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Mf, the dude said to provide a verse example and I did
IS THERE NO SATISFYING YOU PEOPLE
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Hasty12345
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I get the concerns.
On one side, we can understand that a R > F qualitative difference can mean that the lower order dimension can contain 4, a thousand, a million, countably infinite or uncountably infinite embedded dimensions and it wouldn't make a difference because that lower order world would still be perceived as fictional by the higher order world.
On the other side, there are verses with supposed smaller physical cosmologies (Umineko compared to SCP, apparently as cited here) but due to the R > F metaphysics for Umineko, they would get the higher tier despite that. I don't know how accurate the comparison between the two verses actually are, but I can see the concern.
This topic isn't old. Similar discussions about omnipotent characters have also dealt with whether they're all equal or they should be judged based on how big/complex the worlds they have full control over (obviously also significantly different, but you can see the parallels).
My answer to this is... quite frankly, I don't care.
Okay, that's half-joking. I think there are more active, interested minds that would be seeking to resolve that. Hopefully.
On one side, we can understand that a R > F qualitative difference can mean that the lower order dimension can contain 4, a thousand, a million, countably infinite or uncountably infinite embedded dimensions and it wouldn't make a difference because that lower order world would still be perceived as fictional by the higher order world.
On the other side, there are verses with supposed smaller physical cosmologies (Umineko compared to SCP, apparently as cited here) but due to the R > F metaphysics for Umineko, they would get the higher tier despite that. I don't know how accurate the comparison between the two verses actually are, but I can see the concern.
This topic isn't old. Similar discussions about omnipotent characters have also dealt with whether they're all equal or they should be judged based on how big/complex the worlds they have full control over (obviously also significantly different, but you can see the parallels).
My answer to this is... quite frankly, I don't care.
Okay, that's half-joking. I think there are more active, interested minds that would be seeking to resolve that. Hopefully.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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SCP is still above Umineko regardless of if we consider the sizes of the hierarchies or not.
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1-A through realness
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Meme time to calm my nerves:
That one guy who makes an intricate, powerful, and interesting worldbuilding and tiering system to make it both very strong and awesome.
And then that one guy who just puts transcendence on everything.
Tbh, I can physically feel the no limits fallacy leaking in.
That one guy who makes an intricate, powerful, and interesting worldbuilding and tiering system to make it both very strong and awesome.
And then that one guy who just puts transcendence on everything.
Tbh, I can physically feel the no limits fallacy leaking in.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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This is now becoming a pointless rant that pedals already debunked arguments.
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Oi, it's a "MEME" the **** was I doin' making an argument??? I SAID MEME
Also, sauce to debunk or it is nonexistent
And the whole transcendence thing is way too flexible and subjective (sure, anyone can scale whatever) but this is going on a whole other level of subjectivity that could potentially lead to even more wank, pissier arguments, burnt faces, and mind breaking
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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The sauce is in Ultima's OP.
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Give me a specific line then. I ain't re-reading a thousand paragraph bible
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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There is no "specific line" because the OP is meant to be read in its entirety, and anything less would miss crucial context.
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shouldn't ultimas thread be accepted by now
he has enough staff approval
him and dt are just going to keep debating endlessly
he has enough staff approval
him and dt are just going to keep debating endlessly
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Alright, that's it boys! Looks like we'll be re-reading an entire f*cking bible-
Summarize sections and paragraphs then
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Probably forgor or lazyshouldn't ultimas thread be accepted by now
he has enough staff approval
him and dt are just going to keep debating endlessly
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