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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Iamunanimousinthat said:
Superiority still needs to be defined. Whether it is superiority via size or realness. Other wise it is just an empty word. What exactly does it mean to be superior?
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Well in size it means to have greater size; to be bigger on the level of uncountable infinite. For realness it means to be more real; to see the reality beneath yours as fiction.
 
Deidalius said:
I still don't get why realness and size were treated as equal methods to become stronger in the first place.
Click to expand...


From my memory

It was first dimensions.
Then qualitative superiority for verses that did not have any concrete mentions of dimensions.
Then R>F was introduced.

So it wasn’t all made together. It was put together over time.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
From my memory

It was first dimensions.
Then qualitative superiority for verses that did not have any concrete mentions of dimensions.
Then R>F was introduced.

So it wasn’t all made together. It was put together over time.
Click to expand...
Nah, Umineko has been a key part of the system since its beginning, Reality-Fiction has always been a thing. Honestly, this is merely me guessing without too much evidence backing it up, but it's probably the likes of Marvel, Lovecraft, and Tenchi Muyo that we have the focus on dimensions and attempt to equalise them.
 
Going by that diagram, you can have a 3D being be 1A as it's from a higher layer reality compared to the base reality of the verse. Interesting. . .
 
Ovy7 said:
Going by that diagram, you can have a 3D being be 1A as it's from a higher layer reality compared to the base reality of the verse. Interesting. . .
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To be fair, there is a difference between the dimensionality of your body is different from your power levels.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
From my memory

It was first dimensions.
Then qualitative superiority for verses that did not have any concrete mentions of dimensions.
Then R>F was introduced.

So it wasn’t all made together. It was put together over time.
Click to expand...
Has there been a blog or post explaining what qualitative superiority means? I hear that word thrown around a lot but no page that defines itm
 
Everything12 said:
Nah, Umineko has been a key part of the system since its beginning, Reality-Fiction has always been a thing. Honestly, this is merely me guessing without too much evidence backing it up, but it's probably the likes of Marvel, Lovecraft, and Tenchi Muyo that we have the focus on dimensions and attempt to equalise them.
Click to expand...
I don't think so. if you look at Beatrice's past edits. Her past tiers were for dimensional scaling based on the language.

Everything12 said:
Well in size it means to have greater size; to be bigger on the level of uncountable infinite. For realness it means to be more real; to see the reality beneath yours as fiction.
Click to expand...
It still doesn't actually answer what exactly is superiority. Saying, "being bigger in sizer is being superior" or "being more real is being superior" doesn't actually answer what superiority is.
 
Deidalius said:
Has there been a blog or post explaining what qualitative superiority means? I hear that word thrown around a lot but no page that defines itm
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
JimedBro2020 said:
I'm not reading all of that (the comments) but I'll give my opinion on this.

I'd prefer a tiering system that's more linear and has a continuity and a link rather than a tiering system with a disconnect and link breakage for higher powers just because "meh, bigger = better"

It's like saying that character A is equal to or bigger than character B because A is at the pinnacle of its cosmology despite character B's cosmology being bigger. There's a clear break in continuity! And thus, makes it easy to wank
Click to expand...
Hey! You can voice your points here
 
I didn't understand the point of immutability in tier 0, for example in the case of omnipresent characters they necessarily change and even so it doesn't disqualify them and no work I know demonstrates true immutability even in the case of characters that are not omnipresent, moving is change, thinking is change, etc.

To be immutable the character cannot even be a character in the first place.

And worse, you can't become a Tier 0, you always have to be and how will concepts that emerged after this character apply to him? If they are applied to him then he has changed and if they are not applicable to him then he cannot be quantified and is also not tier 0.

And isn't the concept of immutability itself something that was born after the character? So why does it matter?
 
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I'll give my opinion on this.

I'd prefer a tiering system that's more linear and has a continuity and a link rather than a tiering system with a disconnect and link breakage for higher powers just because "meh, bigger = better"

It's like saying that character A is equal to or bigger than character B because A is at the pinnacle of its cosmology despite character B's cosmology being bigger. There's a clear break in continuity! And thus, makes it easy to wank
 
JimedBro2020 said:
I'll give my opinion on this.

I'd prefer a tiering system that's more linear and has a continuity and a link rather than a tiering system with a disconnect and link breakage for higher powers just because "meh, bigger = better"

It's like saying that character A is equal to or bigger than character B because A is at the pinnacle of its cosmology despite character B's cosmology being bigger. There's a clear break in continuity! And thus, makes it easy to wank
Click to expand...
I don't understand.
 
"Character A vs Character B" scenarios are often hard to understand because you can just throw around elements that suits what you're trying to say without clear elaboration.

If you wanna cite examples, it's better to simply compare to verses.

I do kinda get what they're saying though.
 
Metalballrun said:
If you wanna cite examples, it's better to simply compare to verses.
Click to expand...
It's basically like saying featherine solos scp or mathiverse because both uses math and are more linear and because featherine transcends dimensions DESPITE the fact umineko has a lesser cosmology and hierarchial structure than both
 
JimedBro2020 said:
It's basically like saying featherine solos scp or mathiverse because both uses math and are more linear and because featherine transcends dimensions DESPITE the fact umineko has a lesser cosmology and hierarchial structure than both
Click to expand...
verse wars aside, the point here is that Ultima believes certain types of transcendences award higher stats/attributes than what mathematics is able to quantify.

the idea we shouldn't change the tier system to maintain SCP vs Umineko banter is laughable.
 
Hasty12345 said:
verse wars aside, the point here is that Ultima believes certain types of transcendences award higher stats/attributes than what mathematics is able to quantify.

the idea we shouldn't change the tier system to maintain SCP vs Umineko banter is laughable.
Click to expand...
Mf, the dude said to provide a verse example and I did

IS THERE NO SATISFYING YOU PEOPLE
 
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I get the concerns.

On one side, we can understand that a R > F qualitative difference can mean that the lower order dimension can contain 4, a thousand, a million, countably infinite or uncountably infinite embedded dimensions and it wouldn't make a difference because that lower order world would still be perceived as fictional by the higher order world.

On the other side, there are verses with supposed smaller physical cosmologies (Umineko compared to SCP, apparently as cited here) but due to the R > F metaphysics for Umineko, they would get the higher tier despite that. I don't know how accurate the comparison between the two verses actually are, but I can see the concern.
This topic isn't old. Similar discussions about omnipotent characters have also dealt with whether they're all equal or they should be judged based on how big/complex the worlds they have full control over (obviously also significantly different, but you can see the parallels).

My answer to this is... quite frankly, I don't care.




Okay, that's half-joking. I think there are more active, interested minds that would be seeking to resolve that. Hopefully.
 
JimedBro2020 said:
It's basically like saying featherine solos scp or mathiverse because both uses math and are more linear and because featherine transcends dimensions DESPITE the fact umineko has a lesser cosmology and hierarchial structure than both
Click to expand...
SCP is still above Umineko regardless of if we consider the sizes of the hierarchies or not.
 
Meme time to calm my nerves:
That one guy who makes an intricate, powerful, and interesting worldbuilding and tiering system to make it both very strong and awesome.

And then that one guy who just puts transcendence on everything.

Tbh, I can physically feel the no limits fallacy leaking in.
 
JimedBro2020 said:
Meme time to calm my nerves:
That one guy who makes an intricate, powerful, and interesting worldbuilding and tiering system to make it both very strong and awesome.

And then that one guy who just puts transcendence on everything.

Tbh, I can physically feel the no limits fallacy leaking in.
Click to expand...
This is now becoming a pointless rant that pedals already debunked arguments.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
This is now becoming a pointless rant that pedals already debunked arguments.
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Oi, it's a "MEME" the **** was I doin' making an argument??? I SAID MEME

Also, sauce to debunk or it is nonexistent

And the whole transcendence thing is way too flexible and subjective (sure, anyone can scale whatever) but this is going on a whole other level of subjectivity that could potentially lead to even more wank, pissier arguments, burnt faces, and mind breaking
 
people are quick to jump to the “NLF” argument like Ultima hasn’t explicitly explained that it’s functionally not a NLF and it’s a matter of differences in 2 distinct superiorities.
 
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