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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Everything12 said:
I sounded mad? I'm saying just have fun and don't care about anything beyond that, if you find understanding 1-A a chore then just don't do it. Well beyond following the rules of course.

Anyway, 1-A is for stuff that is equivalent to a higher reality seeing a lower reality as fiction, 1-A+ is made of an infinite hierarchy of higher realities seeing lower ones as fictions, while High 1-A is an even higher reality that sees not just a lower reality, but the entire 1-A hierarchy as equivalent to fictional.

Theirs some more nuance and rules of what does and doesn't qualify, but this is the basic explanation of how things work.
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Alright, so 1A completely exceeds all of dimensionality then? And low 1A is combination of all sets of dimensions right?
 
An absolute infinity of anything, and anything physically embodying that, would land at Low 1-A.
 
Pretty much what Agnaa said. Absolute Infinity being mentioned at all (and proof it is actually Absolute Infinite) is a automatic cheat code to Low 1-A

I'll just cram this in because I'm genuinely curious: We currently tier Omnipotence based on the Scholarly view of it based on logical possibilities. Well, how exactly would we tier it if a verse explores the Absolutist side of God and his/her/their/hir Omnipotence ? I think the Omnipotence page briefly touched upon this but mostly deals with the logical side of Omnipotence, but this is going off of memory soo.

If you don't know what it is, the Absolutist view on God's Omnipotence essentially is "The answer to whether God can do 'x' is always yes, regardless of what 'x' is or happens to be"
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Pretty much what Agnaa said. Absolute Infinity being mentioned at all (and proof it is actually Absolute Infinite) is a automatic cheat code to Low 1-A

I'll just cram this in because I'm genuinely curious: We currently tier Omnipotence based on the Scholarly view of it based on logical possibilities. Well, how exactly would we tier it if a verse explores the Absolutist side of God and his/her/their/hir Omnipotence ? I think the Omnipotence page briefly touched upon this but mostly deals with the logical side of Omnipotence, but this is going off of memory soo.

If you don't know what it is, the Absolutist view on God's Omnipotence essentially is "The answer to whether God can do 'x' is always yes, regardless of what 'x' is or happens to be"
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Our interpretation is that that's equivalent to logical omnipotence. Logical omnipotence just takes some of those states as invalid, and so it's not a limitation that a monad can't implement then; so regardless, each character would be able to actualise all valid states.
 
To be clear, is it possible to stack quantitative superiorities on top of qualitative ones? Say, a character being quantitatively 5-D in relation to baseline 1-A.
 
Gasper said:
I re-read Ultima's tiering system. There can be multiple, yes, while all of them need to be equal in power. While Godheads are equal, there are characters above them like the triat and Buddha, who are not Godheads.
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Different High 1-A+'s (1st type) can have varying degrees of strength I'm pretty sure just nothing too significant like viewing the below as fiction.
 
Also I'm certain that Triat is below the Godheads because aren't the Triat confined within the Tellurian... which a Godhead both created and encompasses? Ofc, please inform me if I'm wrong. While Buddha is above the Jade Emperor (Godhead), he doesn't completely R/F transcend him. It's said he "surpasses" all "gods". Not even transcend. and even IF if said Transcend. That doesn't refer to "Godheads", its just the regular gods of that Creation.

 
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BestMGQScalerEver said:
Different High 1-A+'s (1st type) can have varying degrees of strength I'm pretty sure just nothing too significant like viewing the below as fiction.
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No they can't.

"Due to the nature of how it works, High 1-A+ has similar properties to Tier 0, in a way. For instance, all characters in that tier are exactly equal. You can't really be above the collection of all possibilities and yet be, yourself, one of those possibilities, as that'd be an obvious contradiction. So ultimately, transcending a High 1-A+ means you're Tier 0, and if you supposedly do that while also displaying traits very unlike those of a Tier 0, then the thing you transcended was just never High 1-A+ to begin with.

Furthermore, a character "blowing up all possibilities," or something to that effect, is likewise incoherent. That is because a High 1-A+ space would be, in effect, the collection of all possible contingencies: All the things that aren't necessarily true, but aren't necessarily false, either. For example, your existence is a contingency, because it could have been that you never came into existence.

So, if a character blew up all possible worlds, and this was a contingent event, then there would be a possible world where... they... didn't do that. That's an obvious paradox, so, yeah, doesn't work at all, either. The only way to be High 1-A+ is to be the embodiment of all possibilities yourself."
- Ultima
 
Gasper said:
I re-read Ultima's tiering system. There can be multiple, yes, while all of them need to be equal in power. While Godheads are equal, there are characters above them like the triat and Buddha, who are not Godheads.
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There are two types of High 1-A+. The lower order of High 1-A+ embodies certain modal logic or possible worlds. There can be nearly an infinite amount depending on what context is given. The higher end of High 1-A+ embodies all possible contingency and modal logic and is the apex of the Cosmology.
 
Gasper said:
No they can't.

"Due to the nature of how it works, High 1-A+ has similar properties to Tier 0, in a way. For instance, all characters in that tier are exactly equal. You can't really be above the collection of all possibilities and yet be, yourself, one of those possibilities, as that'd be an obvious contradiction. So ultimately, transcending a High 1-A+ means you're Tier 0, and if you supposedly do that while also displaying traits very unlike those of a Tier 0, then the thing you transcended was just never High 1-A+ to begin with.

Furthermore, a character "blowing up all possibilities," or something to that effect, is likewise incoherent. That is because a High 1-A+ space would be, in effect, the collection of all possible contingencies: All the things that aren't necessarily true, but aren't necessarily false, either. For example, your existence is a contingency, because it could have been that you never came into existence.

So, if a character blew up all possible worlds, and this was a contingent event, then there would be a possible world where... they... didn't do that. That's an obvious paradox, so, yeah, doesn't work at all, either. The only way to be High 1-A+ is to be the embodiment of all possibilities yourself."
- Ultima
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No, if a certain character embodies some sort of contingency yet is transcended by another that embodies more than it then “logically” either character A is weaker ie being a lesser embodiment, or character B is just straight up more powerful due to the nature of embodying all certain logical contingency(that would include embodying something bigger/more than character A).

So, you can be more powerful in that sense. I’ll give you an example while someone like Maya from Marvel is the illusion and the dream embodied by the Creator thus she defines all things in Creation, however, she's still preceded and surpassed by Oblivion which represents something bigger and even encompasses her. Thus, they're both High 1-A+ but Oblivion obviously exists to be higher and more powerful. You can have power differences, it’s not in the realm of impossible for that to happen.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
There are two types of High 1-A+. The lower order of High 1-A+ embodies certain modal logic or possible worlds. There can be nearly an infinite amount depending on what context is given. The higher end of High 1-A+ embodies all possible contingency and modal logic and is the apex of the Cosmology.
Click to expand...
So should the Godheads be at the higher end? Since they were within the Absolute/Void which is the zenith of WoD Cosmology.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
No, if a certain character embodies some sort of contingency yet is transcended by another that embodies more than it then “logically” either character A is weaker ie being a lesser embodiment, or character B is just straight up more powerful due to the nature of embodying all curtains logical conteingency.

So, you can be more powerful in that sense. I’ll give you an example while someone like Maya from Marvel is the illusion and dreamed body by the Creator thus she defines all things in Creation, however, she's still preceded and surpassed by Oblivion which represents something bigger and even encompasses her. Thus, they're both High 1-A+ but Oblivion obviously exists to be higher and more powerful. You can have power differences, it’s not in the realm of impossible for that to happen.
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This is what Ultima literally said. So, no, High 1-A+ can't be more powerful than another High 1-A+ character.
 
Gasper said:
This is what Ultima literally said. So, no, High 1-A+ can't be more powerful than another High 1-A+ character.
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He also said this:

By that token, it's not quite accurate to say that this High 1-A+ is "The creator of all possibilities who can also destroy them if it wants," in my opinion. It's not like they'd have created themselves, or created a possibility where they are destroyed. So you can say that there is a sense in which the second type of High 1-A+ is stronger, yeah. Because they are the framework of possibilities itself, instead of a being existing in said framework.
Click to expand...
 
Apotheosis69 said:
So should the Godheads be at the higher end? Since they were within the Absolute/Void which is the zenith of WoD Cosmology.
Click to expand...
No. They're all High 1-A. There's no actual High 1-A+ in the current Cosmology unless you count Buddha as the apex of the Cosmology. If you believe it to be so then you can make a CRT for it.
 
Gasper said:
No they can't.

"Due to the nature of how it works, High 1-A+ has similar properties to Tier 0, in a way. For instance, all characters in that tier are exactly equal. You can't really be above the collection of all possibilities and yet be, yourself, one of those possibilities, as that'd be an obvious contradiction. So ultimately, transcending a High 1-A+ means you're Tier 0, and if you supposedly do that while also displaying traits very unlike those of a Tier 0, then the thing you transcended was just never High 1-A+ to begin with.

Furthermore, a character "blowing up all possibilities," or something to that effect, is likewise incoherent. That is because a High 1-A+ space would be, in effect, the collection of all possible contingencies: All the things that aren't necessarily true, but aren't necessarily false, either. For example, your existence is a contingency, because it could have been that you never came into existence.

So, if a character blew up all possible worlds, and this was a contingent event, then there would be a possible world where... they... didn't do that. That's an obvious paradox, so, yeah, doesn't work at all, either. The only way to be High 1-A+ is to be the embodiment of all possibilities yourself."
- Ultima
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And Ultima also says that the 1st type of High 1-A+ (where you're able to actualize the possibilities and are still a possible being yourself instead of just being collection of all possibilities) can vary in strength in a non transcendence sort of way.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
No. They're all High 1-A. There's no actual High 1-A+ in the current Cosmology unless you count Buddha as the apex of the Cosmology. If you believe it to be so then you can make a CRT for it.
Click to expand...
Interesting. But Godheads are the apex of their "Cosmology" I thought. But in your case, the High 1-A+ should then be "Those Who Dwell Beyond the Stars" when they become an "Adversary" of the Essential Divinity. Because they are the Oblivion of the Void.
 
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Karllkraft said:
You can think of it as only quantitative between 5b and 4b, but 1A is purely qualitative and it is already written in the fandom pages and crt's. Qualitative,

refers to a characteristic or feature of something, describing how something is made or how it compares with others. Quantity is the extent, number or completeness of something. It is countable or measurable and can be expressed as a numerical value.
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I'm not saying whether quantiative superiorities above baseline 1-A count for another tier, but rather on if they count on their own, like how multipliers in tier 2 are a thing yet don't make a character raise a tier.

In any case I'm being informed by more veteran users off-site that they are indeed compatible regardless, I'd also avoid using machine translations as they're baiting miscommunication, although I'm aware that learning another language can be a chore.
 
Apotheosis69 said:
Interesting. But Godheads are the apex of their "Cosmology" I thought. But in your case, the High 1-A+ should then be "Those Who Dwell Beyond the Stars" when they become an "Adversary" of the Essential Divinity. Because they are the Oblivion of the Void.
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They can be the lower-end or type 1 but only one being can be in the higher end. There's one 0 and one High 1-A(type 2).
 
So wait, I am confused and likely dumb. There are two types of High 1-A+, and there can only be a single High 1-A+ (Type 2) but multiple High 1-A+ (Type 1)?
 
Apotheosis69 said:
So wait, I am confused and likely dumb. There are two types of High 1-A+, and there can only be a single High 1-A+ (Type 2) but multiple High 1-A+ (Type 1)?
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Yes. The former is the embodiment of all possible logic and contingency, usually associated with what a 0 can form though 0 exists independently of any hierarchy. The latter embodies either one possible contingency or some large possible worlds, however, they're still considered within the framework and are considered to be lesser to the higher end which is essentially the framework itself.
 
Iiliminal said:
goku solos all these fodders
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yes
vsbattles.fandom.com

Journey to the West Cosmology

This page is going to do its best to go over the Cosmology of The Journey to the West Novel written by Wu Cheng'en. As a 16th Century Novel JTTW is written with a lot of Flowery Language and it is difficult to decern what is true from what is false. This Cosmology page will be my interpretation...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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