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Everyone wants upgrades but no one wants to make good P&A
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- Connector vs Ogre -
- Thread starter NikHelton
- Start date
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
- 50,192
Also working on that at the same time.
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Shen's analytical prediction is jacked enough that most of Yujiro's techniques shouldn't even land on him tbh.
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Nice but I was referring to the supporters who rush for a upgradeAlso working on that at the same time.
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In the end, both are bad.
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Not gonna lie, Yujiro currently should have way better analytical prediction.
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Then his profile states or better than Shen?
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Both, although I understand why his profile doesn't include all the shit, since it's a lot.
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Ok so, in the Father and Son fight he essentiall had a stand off against Baki, where they were using 0.5 seconds prediction, which essentially works by literally reading the brain signals sent by the enemy in order to read their mind. During this stand off they reached an unsolvable stalemate because they were reading each others prediction of their prediction of their prediction of their.... you get the point, so many steps ahead that it was impossible for either of them to get the upper hand. Yujiro would then state that they would predict each other until they died from old age before either of them gained the upper hand, which really tells how many steps ahead they were reading.
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Damnnn. I'll need to reread the father-son fight I guess, forgot about that part.
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- Thread starter
- #93
Can you suggest the chapter, please?
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It was chapter 276 from Son of Ogre if I remember correctly.
Here are the scans, by the way. They do require a little bit of context, so feel free to ask.
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
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For one, they aren't constantly reading a million steps ahead. The inception of each other's prediction happens in the moment, that's the whole point of constantly intercepting each other, getting in each others way at the last moment. The way you're looking at the feat is off.
For two, what Baki and Yujiro are doing is pretty much a basic Pre-Initiative battle.
(Somewhat unrelated, but you're using an anime translation that isn't found in the manga, so you'd probably have to look at the raws and have them translated to get a proper conclusion.)
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I'm not saying they are reading millions of steps ahead, just a ridiculous amount of steps ahead which we can't put an exact number. Now it does happen constantly, the point of the scene was that they were intercepting each others prediction and reacting to it, which makes sense with the context of how 0.5 seconds work given that it's literally intercepting their brain waves in order to read the mind. It's not talking about physically intercepting if that's what you mean.
I honestly don't see how that's the case given that, first, Pre-Initiave is less complex since it's just intent reading, while 0.5 seconds goes way beyond, plus it already upscales other layered intent based predictions in verse, and secondly, it doesn't read as many steps ahead.
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That's just cause wildfang translation kinda sucks ass at times, and the anime translation is generally accepted given it's official, so it's just helpful for a better analysis. It's not like it doesn't fit the context of the manga.
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- Thread starter
- #98
Dude, that's literally what Kanoh and Kuroki did until one of them surpassed the other in depth of analysis.
I will say more, Shen looks at all this as child’s play, because he literally says to the masters of pre-initiative, “Is this all you can do?”
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Not really? I genuinely just established the difference, which is that Yujiro's prediction has greater complexity and reads more steps ahead.
That's simply not true
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- Thread starter
- #100
No, the point is that he intercepted a thought that intercepted their thought. It's just a race to get ahead of the curve. But not something from the category “And I knew that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know... so I followed like this”
Kaneda's predictions go dozens of steps ahead, while the pre-initiative goes beyond all that. So to say that it doesn’t read many moves is wrong
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
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I know it's not literally a million steps, that was hyperbole for the sake of a comedic argument . Even under the assumption that they're constantly reading, it would still be an unquantifiable feat beyond "lot of steps ahead."
I don't mean physically intercepting. I mean like, step by step, like Yujiro put it. Baki isn't reading 10 steps ahead of Yujiro in order to intercept his intent 10 times in a row. Baki is reading one step ahead, getting intercepted by Yujiro, predicting that inception, then going into a cycle of it. Yujiro wouldn't describe it as step by step if all the steps were fused into one.
What's happening here is not any different. Brain waves just make it seem fancy, but it's still just thoughts being read. If anything, Pre-Initiave users are better because they move before the thought even reaches the body, rather than attacking in the interval between thought and body.
Even the barest, most basic bitch Foresight can read 100 steps ahead and intercept attacks from people who are FTE to people faster than the user, Pre-Initiave is massively above that level which is considered poopy level Foresight in Kengan.
I get that, hence I said it's kind of unimportant but felt like I should mention it.
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- Thread starter
- #102
This is literally what we have. He talks about the pre-initiative “only made” and he himself is far beyond it
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
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Honestly, @Mr_Lumbago, idrc about this match and Kengan stats are trash anyways, so if you wanna debate the skill stuff offsite later, then id probably be cooler with that.
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Yeah honestly, that sounds good, I think you have my discord already. I'm just gonna respond to some points here.
Those two concepts you are essentially the same, because there is no real difference between them besides how fast they can read. Kaneda, or every other character who can read x steps ahead, still has to follow a line of thought that goes "well he probably is doing that next, and then that, and then that..." where they read step by step all x amount of moves. The only difference with a regular one step reading is that they can do it fast enough so that they can know what will happen many steps ahead in a single moment. That's exactly what is happening here with Yujiro and Baki, which has no real difference with Kaneda's foresight, or other forms of analytical prediction in Kengan.
There is a massive difference between infering the thoughts of someone based on reading their intent and literally catching their brainwaves and translating them in order to read the mind in an instant. You are taking a vague general similarity and making it out to be that they are equal when there isn't really much of a sliver of similarity.
I don't really think 100 steps compares with the massive amount of steps ahead Yujiro should be reading. And fighting characters that go FTE compared to you isn't something weird in Baki. Musashi was dodging attacks from Baki, who thanks to cockroach dash was going FTE compared to him. Baki also has dodged FTE attacks in several occasions, although it's not always cause of prediction alone, sometimes it's caus of instincts, cause he reduced his wasted movement to the maximum, etc.
MountainWine
He/Him- 91
- 38
Shen via higher AP and better skills
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I think Yujiro's perception is really downplayed here. The man is perceptive enough to tell when someone has cancer. He's not going to make the first move if he knows he's going to be bodied. The only reason why Yujiro doesn't use techniques he's copied is because he has a really toxic level of masculinity and needs to prove his dominance over weaker characters. But in a fight where he's put against an opponent of the same level as him, he would go all out and use whatever it takes to not die.
The only question now is if Wulong has an answer to Yujiro's techniques.
The only question now is if Wulong has an answer to Yujiro's techniques.
azontr
He/Him- 40,579
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Yujiro using Shen's techniques against him wouldn't really mean much since Shen doesn't use techniques. He uses principles of martial arts that anyone can use at his level, given they're well, at his level. Him tapping someone and knocking them out isn't a technique, Shen just knows where and how to strike to make someone pass out just by lightly tapping them.
TLDR, Yujiro copying Shen wouldn't do anything, Shen's just insanely skilled at doing things anyone can do with practice. The only way Yujiro can overcome this is if he can somehow copy Shen's experience.
TLDR, Yujiro copying Shen wouldn't do anything, Shen's just insanely skilled at doing things anyone can do with practice. The only way Yujiro can overcome this is if he can somehow copy Shen's experience.
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