The [[BIGGEST]] bad time: Spamton vs Sans

[Eden_Warlock99]

I knew you are dishonest, but I didn't imagine to this degree.

You can argue the same to Sans' stuff and also say that you can dodge everything he does through moving at the sides, given that both games are strictly 2D. We just assume for sake of being fair that to dodge these attacks you're limited to the same degree players are in a 2D field.

Otherwise you can say the same with Asgore, Jevil, etc, which is blatantly untrue.

You misunderstand. I didn't mean that it was literally 2D, those trucks and mails or whatever obviously have width.
I was merely combating the claim that it was "undodgeable." It isn't. That wouldn't really make any sense, especially since we see how DR projectiles look like in the overworld.

 

[StrymULTRA]

While this is all truly sad, again, why would it make him more cruel? Also, no, it is not about uncaring, it is about being truly evil on Genocide, lol. All of what I listed is the result of Frisk being evil, not uncaring.

Mfw Sans himself says that the reason why Frisk does this is not for good or evil, but because they just can do it.

Frisk is world-ending threat he needs to convince to quit

That's Chara.

And btw yes he did, he actively uses Teleportation, it is also on profile.

The incoming downgrades will be funny then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I was merely combating the claim that it was "undodgeable." It isn't. That wouldn't really make any sense, especially since we see how DR projectiles look like in the overworld.

I mean, Kris doesn't move to the side in the Snowgrave fight despite them having way more freedom than being stuck on a cart.

That should seal the deal on Sans being able to dodge it (he can't).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mfw Sans himself says that the reason why Frisk does this is not for good or evil, but because they just can do it.

I wanted to bring up MTT NEO but since Sans is more reliable... fair enough ig. Better wait until Empathic Manipulation passes cuz it will change the outcome.

That's Chara.

Frisk is the cause of Chara ending the world though.

The incoming downgrades will be funny then.

So you are gonna remove Teleportation or smth? LOL, Might asw remove Bone Manipulation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk is the cause of Chara ending the world though.

Frisk can choose whenever to erase or not, they don't canonically always choose erase, it's something forced from Chara, remember.

So you are gonna remove Teleportation or smth? LOL, Might asw remove Bone Manipulation.

Nah, I'm generally having issues with SI and other things like teleportation being combat applicable. There's a lot of stuff I disagree with Sans' profile rn, I just didn't care enough to fix until now.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Frisk can choose whenever to erase or not, they don't canonically always choose erase, it's something forced from Chara, remember.

Okay? They're still a direct reason of Chara summonning and destroying everything. It's your choice whether you get to the very end or no. If you reach the end, then world goes bye-bye. Hence why Sans tries every single thing to stop you from getting to the end.

Nah, I'm generally having issues with SI and other things like teleportation being combat applicable. There's a lot of stuff I disagree with Sans' profile rn, I just didn't care enough to fix until now.

He actively uses Teleportation in battle, again it's same as making Bone Manip non-combat applicable.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay? They're still a direct reason of Chara summonning and destroying everything. It's your choice whether you get to the very end or no. If you reach the end, then world goes bye-bye. Hence why Sans tries every single thing to stop you from getting to the end.

It still doesn't mean that Frisk is fully for that.

They simply went to kill everyone they can find, the stuff at the end is fully Chara's idea.

He actively uses Teleportation in battle

Did you play Undertale at least? He never does that in the battle, either.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Did you play Undertale at least? He never does that in the battle, either.

Phase 2, especially in his final attack.
He teleports a bunch for ***** and giggles.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It still doesn't mean that Frisk is fully for that.

They simply went to kill everyone they can find, the stuff at the end is fully Chara's idea.

This doesn't change anything: the reason why Sans behaves on Genocide as he does is because reports show that if anomaly reaches the end, the entire world will be destroyed. Whether this was Frisk's intention or not does not mean a thing.

Did you play Undertale at least? He never does that in the battle, either.

I can literally ask you the same question.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

He teleports a bunch for ***** and giggles.

Real

 

[TheRadiantSoul]

Sans does use Teleportation in battle, the problem is that he won't be able to Capitalize on it in any meaningful way before getting tired and shot to death. Especially aganist a dude who out ranges him to all hell and has a laundry list of projectiles.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Phase 2, especially in his final attack.
He teleports a bunch for ***** and giggles.

I never interpreted it as teleportation ngl.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sans does use Teleportation in battle, the problem is that he won't be able to Capitalize on it in any meaningful way before getting tired and shot to death. Especially aganist a dude who out ranges him to all hell and has a laundry list of projectiles.

sans literally just needs one clean Gaster Blaster shot and Spamton dies.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans does use Teleportation in battle, the problem is that he won't be able to Capitalize on it in any meaningful way before getting tired and shot to death. Especially aganist a dude who out ranges him to all hell and has a laundry list of projectiles.

Sans' range is bigger. His IA will make him evade all of Spamton's attacks. He can fight for 10 minutes straight, tfym. And Sans needs just a single good hit and RIP Spamton, and Spamton does not have such Reaction Speed advantage as Sans does

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I never interpreted it as teleportation ngl.

Then what the HELL is it in your interpretation?

 

[TheRadiantSoul]

Sans' range is bigger.

Only with Teleportation, which would not be particularly useful here. Try again.

His IA will make him evade all of Spamton's attacks. He can fight for 10 minutes straight, tfym.

Sans has not been shown to have any experience fighting opponents who can launch multiple projectiles, fired together in a massive line. There is no concrete evidence that he can effectively dodge dozens of rapid-fire projectiles forever, atleast not confirmed on screen. You also believed his IA would carry during Sans vs Sukuna, despite everything points towards the contrary, which is very odd.

Sans has only been shown fighting seriously against an character wielding a knife, whose range is only standard melee. Even then, Sans became fatigued after dodging 22-24 slashes.

Neo Spamton is not immobile, and can fly away from Sans' attacks.

Edit: And for much longer I might add, due to higher stamina.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Only with Teleportation, which would not be particularly useful here.

Huh? Sans can literally just teleport the heck out of Spamton's attacks whenever he feels like it.

Sans has not been shown to have any experience fighting opponents who can launch multiple projectiles

Wrong

You also believed his IA would carry during Sans vs Sukuna, despite everything points towards the contrary, which is very odd.

It would and I still believe this, but JJK fans are JJK fans

Sans has only been shown fighting seriously against an character wielding a knife, whose range is only standard melee.

Wrong. And also, teleporting out of the range of projectiles is not something the guy with EG Intelligence would not figure out.

Even then, Sans became fatigued after dodging 22-24 slashes.

He also projected MANY attacks in meantime LOL

Neo Spamton is not immobile, and can fly away from Sans' attacks.

Has he dodged Danmaku comparable to Sans' too?

 

[Catbowtie]

Let's get to it.

All of this is responded to in the paragraph (Hopefully. I can forget). If I say something that's already been said then my bad. I am making the case for Sans' Social Influencing, not anything else, but if I happen to go into actual combat between Sans and Spamton, then take that argument as separate for the one of Social Influencing.

Bluds acting as if Sans can SI stuff like this just coz "no resistance gg!".

Is this a troll or something? Like... Spamton is so messed up his speech os corrupted, how is that better than Frisk? Coz you say so?

Lack of feats.

i feel like you need to give examples rather than just saying “no…” even if it’s not worse, spamton’s character still likely wouldn’t listen to sans regardless.

Social Influencing isn’t mind manipulation, if the enemy has right mindset, they aren’t going to listen. Spamton is not likely to listen.

Blud, Frisk is not as desperate as Spamton is. Frisk has nothing to lose as they can just reset.

Spamton instead has everything to lose, you're downplaying his pain a lot tbh. No way you're arguing that some "there's good in you bro" is going to stop someone who literally went as far as impersonating others and throw away that few dignity he had to get the NEO in years of attempts.

The reason I believe Sans' Social Influencing works is because Sans' Social Influencing is incredibly potent and Spamton is nowhere near out of the bounds of being social influenced, especially for someone like Sans

Sans' Social Influencing is the following:

• Social Influencing (Sans was able to trick and make Frisk spare him with just his words in the Genocide Route even when Frisk is a coldblooded murderer[1])

In the Genocide Route, Frisk is a single minded maniac that wants nothing but to kill every single monster, and unambiguously goes out of their way to continue to kill until there's no one left.

The Genocide Route occurs when the protagonist kills every enemy (including mini, mid and main bosses) in every region: the Ruins, Snowdin Forest, Waterfall, and Hotland (the CORE is a sub-region of Hotland).

• Encounters become increasingly harder to find as the protagonist grinds out the kill counter for each area (except New Home, in which they are scripted).

This is further shown by numerous textbox pop-ups throughout the game of Undertale

• When attempting to talk to Toriel, the flavor text "Not worth talking to." appears, instead of "Ironically, talking does not seem like the solution to this situation."

• • If Snowdrake is not killed before the kill counter is exhausted, the SAVE Point text changes to "The comedian got away. Failure." and the Genocide Route is aborted.

• The telegram she [Muffet] receives states that despite the protagonist being a hyper-violent murderer, they never harmed a spider since there are no other spider enemies.

More importantly, when Papyrus tries to convince Frisk to turn a new leaf (0:23-1:21), they murder Papyrus without a second thought. Frisk doubled down with Mad Dummy by killing him even when he was sparing them,

• The protagonist's actions upset the Mad Dummy so much that it causes them to become corporeal, turning them into the Glad Dummy. Since the protagonist helped the Mad Dummy become corporeal, they immediately offer to spare them. The dummy must be killed in order for the Genocide Route to progress.

And then solidified themselves by killing Flowey.

• Within the throne room, Asgore mentions having never seen a flower crying (referring to Flowey's attempts to warn Asgore of the protagonist). The protagonist then proceeds to attack Asgore, killing him in one hit (on the console versions, the borders around the game window are immediately disabled upon engaging Asgore). Flowey finishes Asgore off, and then, with his face and voice turning to Asriel's, he begs the protagonist not to kill him. Pressing any of the action buttons causes the protagonist to kill Flowey in eight hits.

Considering all of this, they are still convinced to give up by Sans (Further context).

That is the maximum bar for determining whether or not Sans can socially influence someone. If someone exceeds this feat, then Sans cannot use Social Influencing on them. Spamton's Intelligence and Weaknesses are as follows (respectively):

Intelligence: Above Average (He seems decently intelligent, although he has failed to be a successful salesman on his own and is very mentally unstable in his present state. Despite this, he was able to partially orchestrate the events in the Snowgrave Route by selling the Thorn Ring to Kris, and as a result, had managed to usurp the Queen's mansion by the end)

Weaknesses: He is mentally unstable and glitchy. In addition, he can seemingly lose control over his own actions if he tries to reveal things he isn't allowed to. As with all Darkners, he is restricted to his own Dark World and will eventually turn into stone when venturing outside, or turn into a basic object if he is brought in the Light World. | Same as before, although to a lesser extent. His wires can be cut, which completely disrupts his movements once broken, although it should be noted that it took the combined efforts of three equally powerful foes over a long period of time to accomplish this, to the point that it was better for Kris to battle him normally in the Snowgrave Route.

Spamton does not have Berserk Mode. He does not have any ability that prevents Sans from Socially Influencing him. He nowhere near as single-mindedly persistent as Genocide Route Frisk is, while I do acknowledge his zeal. Unlike Gigyas, where Gigyas is quite literally Mindless so Sans can't even SI if he tried, Spamton has a brain and can think. This is why I don't like it when someone oversimplify Frisk to a "kid with a knife," because that kid is a ****ing maniac mass murderer with 94 bodies (if those were human bodies everyone would have a different tone). Even more if someone wants to say that everyone in the timeline dies when Chara nukes it with 2-B Attack Potency


Anyways, voting Sans because I believe I have fit Spamton well enough under Sans' ability Social Influence him for the ability to work.

 

[ShionAH]

Shouldnt we wait the profile rework? It makes Sans SI better and gives Empathic

Sans Fra either way

 

[Comiphorous]

I feel like @Catbowtie's argument relies on the fact sans wouldn't be attacked while he makes a long monologue.

what stops Spamton from just attacking sans while he's talking? It's not Spamton has any reason to pause and wait for him to speak, nor is Sans the fking courier where he can get someone to give up with a word or two.

 

[ShionAH]

I feel like @Catbowtie's argument relies on the fact sans wouldn't be attacked while he makes a long monologue.

Tbh you cannot attack Sans while he is talking in game

If my CRT passes Spamton will passively feel guilty for everything he has done, which would make him even more open to SI

 

[StrymULTRA]

If my CRT passes Spamton will passively feel guilty for everything he has done, which would make him even more open to SI

Yet why did Frisk keep going lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

He nowhere near as single-mindedly persistent as Genocide Route Frisk is

• Explains why he is
• "He still is not!".

Sans fans really do be a hivemind huh?

Anyway removed the vote counting as I've got the feeling it'd cause controversy.

Anyway I do disagree with Sans even having such potent SI in the first place, so I think I'll just wait for Shion's CRT first to finish.

 

[Comiphorous]

Tbh you cannot attack Sans while he is talking in game

Good thing Spamton aint no bitch unlike Frisk.

If my CRT passes Spamton will passively feel guilty for everything he has done, which would make him even more open to SI

Well, if it's not on the profile yet you might be better off just waiting till it is.

 

[ShionAH]

Yet why did Frisk keep going lol

Unlike Spamton they are a heartless genocidical maniac, Spamton is not that bad

 

[StrymULTRA]

Spamton is not that

Sans himself literally said that Frisk does that not out of evil but just because they can.

Anyway, the argument is convincing Spamton to give up, that ain't happening given that his desperation for freedom is literally the only thing that keeps him moving, I'd argue he's worse because he never gave up despite years of failures, only doing so when NEO is defeated as that was his object of worship, but even that wasn't enough.