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How is it far reaching when you're making this one grunt out to be unique...These assassin are apparently >> SS captains.
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The Big Bleach Speed CRT
- Thread starter Damage3245
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- #802
Nobody is saying that.
But attack speed =/= reaction speed.
You need more to prove that every single assassin has lightning-timing reaction speed, beyond the fact that it is possible that one assassin coated his sword with lightning.
Why are you acting like this "grunt" isn't unique? You're trying to apply a possible feat from one of them to the entire group.
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They receive the same training and have the same techniques dude. They don't even have named Zanpakuto for you to argue one of them have a lightning based Zanpakuto. There is literally nothing else in Bleach that would allow this assassin to a have lightning speed attack.
As you literally are suggesting this particular assassin is > SS captains.
As you literally are suggesting this particular assassin is > SS captains.
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@Damage3245 you're arguing that the "lightning strike" has to function in the same way as launching fireballs. Which is the only way to argue that maybe the assassin's don't have lightning speeds.
However, being that everyone there just witnessed Tokinada deflect a ranged attack, it makes more sense for the assassins to resort to physical strikes rather than shooting off more ranged attacks. In which case the assassins would have demonstrated lightning speed.
However, being that everyone there just witnessed Tokinada deflect a ranged attack, it makes more sense for the assassins to resort to physical strikes rather than shooting off more ranged attacks. In which case the assassins would have demonstrated lightning speed.
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@Arc7Kuroi; no, I'm saying that is the most likely interpretation from reading the whole thing in context.
I don't think that the text supports the assassin trying a physical strike when it specifies that Tokinada bounced the attack back - worded just like how he bounced back the fireballs.
It is not a good basis for the speed scaling when we need to say that:
* It is possible that the assassin attacked as fast as lightning physically.
* It is possible that the assassin's reaction time is as fast as this.
* It is possible that all of the other assassins are equally as fast as this assassin.
* It is possible that the assassins back in the Soul Society arc are as fast as these assassins. (As in, they didn't get any change in speed from the Soul Society arc to months after the end of the series - even though plenty of other characters increased in speed in this time.)
I've given my thoughts on this topic, if anyone else agrees or disagrees feel free to give more input.
In the meantime though, I want to be sure that the current scaling on the blog post is fine for use.
I don't think that the text supports the assassin trying a physical strike when it specifies that Tokinada bounced the attack back - worded just like how he bounced back the fireballs.
It is not a good basis for the speed scaling when we need to say that:
* It is possible that the assassin attacked as fast as lightning physically.
* It is possible that the assassin's reaction time is as fast as this.
* It is possible that all of the other assassins are equally as fast as this assassin.
* It is possible that the assassins back in the Soul Society arc are as fast as these assassins. (As in, they didn't get any change in speed from the Soul Society arc to months after the end of the series - even though plenty of other characters increased in speed in this time.)
I've given my thoughts on this topic, if anyone else agrees or disagrees feel free to give more input.
In the meantime though, I want to be sure that the current scaling on the blog post is fine for use.
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The attack itself is stated lightning speed and it makes no sense for it to be a ranged attack given everyone just saw ranged attacks are ineffective against Tokinada.
If the assassin's physical strikes are lightning speed so would his reactions.
As Sigurd said, they all receive the same training, they're fodder characters, there's no reason to distinguish them from the others.
Nothing indicates that the Onmitsukido corps modified their training regime, I don't see why we'd arbitrarily assume the assassins had massive speed amps.
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This is a word association fallacy, I've already explained why contextually it makes little sense for the attack to be ranged like the fireball attack.
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It would be strange for only the leader of their group to up their training while all the rest stay stagnate.
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So....we have a lightning statemnt for fodder assassins and it can be used cus??
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Lol it took Soi Fon over 100 years to approach Yoruichi who is (hypersonic) but somehow it's logical to assume some no-named fodder characters who can't even awaken Shikai can somehow do it in what a couple months?
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@Sigurd; to be fair our current profiles have Soi Fon going from Massively Hypersonic (which she took 100+ years to reach) to Relativistic (in a couple months).
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That argument can be made for nearly all recurring characters in Bleach, with only a few of them actually having in-universe explanations for such explosive growth.
CloudStrife00T
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So, we are using this statement right ?
........
btw @Arc7Kuroi did you see any other interesting statement?
........
btw @Arc7Kuroi did you see any other interesting statement?
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Yeah let's compare the growth of named characters to background filler dudes who are used like once that don't even have an awakened zanpakuto. There is clearly nothing wrong with this.
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Background characters functionally do not possess growth, they are simply cursed to remain stagnant through their life.
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What you're trying to argue is that we have no reason to assume that this group of trained assassins, led by a trained assassin who clearly trained and improved, would also have their training upped and have them get better at least two years after the defeat of Aizen and half a year since TYBW (I think that's when CFYOW starts).
I think that quite the contrary.
Whether or not these characters are background characters shouldn't matter when looking at the logic of the setting. They not only have room to grow but good reason to try and do so. And the fact that two characters who very clearly showed growth are linked to this very group should also point towards them growing as well. Especially when one of these characters is the very leader of said group, who would handle things such as training.
Me mentioning how growth can clearly be attained in short periods of time by the characters we see supports the idea that people in the verse can increase in power and strength in small spans of time like this.
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Where in the world are you getting some background dudes just created for that scene have been training since the Aizen was sealed? You just gave them a whole backstory... when characters like these have none whatsoever or serve any purpose outside of one scene.
Where are you getting Soi Fon somehow has a hand in any form of training these people might do?
You can’t compare these characters to established characters based off nothing.
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CloudStrife00T
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I don't get it. Kido is Kido. It doesn't matter how much they grow or don't it wont be more than lightning speed or less than lightning speed.
That means they are lightning speed now and they were lightning speed before.
They are background characters, fodders.
Author made them look and act similar. He didn't even distinguish between them. I am pretty sure there is no better way for a author to say that they have same abilities.
You are just assuming things now. Do you have a statement that says that these background became stronger ? or that they trained ?
Why is it that if there is a big assumption then as long as it favors not upgrading the speed of the verse it will get more support than a logical argument and statement ?
That means they are lightning speed now and they were lightning speed before.
They are background characters, fodders.
Author made them look and act similar. He didn't even distinguish between them. I am pretty sure there is no better way for a author to say that they have same abilities.
You are just assuming things now. Do you have a statement that says that these background became stronger ? or that they trained ?
Why is it that if there is a big assumption then as long as it favors not upgrading the speed of the verse it will get more support than a logical argument and statement ?
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this just seems like just simple old downplay to find an excuse or create one to not use a direct statement of a speed feat
CloudStrife00T
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It is that. The speed of whole black clover verse is based on a statement about Patri being Lightspeed. Now we are having this idiotic debate that a statement and feat is not enough for them to be Lightning speed.
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Doesn't Suì-Fēng lead this group? Which would also mean that she controls their training and all that?
And I'm not arguing that what's being said here isn't lightning speed, the quotes are far too direct and clear for it to be taken as anything else honestly. What I'm arguing against is back scaling this speed to characters two years ago in the setting.
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Where is it shown she gives these people some sort of hands on training? We don’t know anything about them. If anything Omaeda would be doing this if at all.
This is like assuming Yama trains his fodder soldiers for some reason.
And I’m trying to figure why top of the line established characters wouldn’t back scale to trash in comparison to them. These characters you’re praising can’t even kill hollows alone. And again they’re literally bottom tier who can’t even awaken a zanpakuto.
CloudStrife00T
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So you are saying captains two year back are weaker than these Fodders ?
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First of all, please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not praising these characters. I'm just saying that we shouldn't backscale to them.
Secondly, while Feng might not train them directly as the top commander she would have a place in improving their training which is an almost certantity after all the events that have happened in the world of Bleach.
Thirdly, the reason that these characters wouldn't backscale is simple, we have no reference for as to where these characters would place in comparison to the rest in terms of speeds. You bring up them not being able to kill hollows alone, you don't have to be faster than them to do so.
They don't have Zanpakto? Nanao Ise spends nearly the entire series without one, and Nemu Kurotsuchi doesn't have one at all. Yet one can keep up with one of Reio's hands and the other could keep pace with her captain, with neither of them being considered comparable in AP to their opponents.
I've never said the characters are weaker than these guys, I'm just saying that that doesn't mean we can scale their speeds to others who we never seem interact with them to these guys. Especially since we've had a significant amount of time between when the feats occur and when the scaling would take place.
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so by ur thinking captains are slower than fodder? seems reasonable....
CloudStrife00T
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But they do interact and do scale.
Are you by chance missing the hierarchy by power ?
Captain, Vice captains, seats, fodders.
Soi-fon, fat guys, seats, and then these assassins
Fodders are far below seats, who are far below vice captains who are far below captains.
You are saying in terms of speed Fodders are stronger than captains for no reason. You don't even have a feat to support that. Just a big assumption.
If training makes fodders stronger than captain in 10 years and nemu can be used for generalization. Then Kazui defeated Yhwach and now via training even fodder are planetary level via scaling to kazui. (This is via using same logic as you. I am not serious.)
Nanao and Nemu both are special cases. If they can be used as example to generalize then we should be able to use Ichigo to generalize.
Are you by chance missing the hierarchy by power ?
Captain, Vice captains, seats, fodders.
Soi-fon, fat guys, seats, and then these assassins
Fodders are far below seats, who are far below vice captains who are far below captains.
You are saying in terms of speed Fodders are stronger than captains for no reason. You don't even have a feat to support that. Just a big assumption.
If training makes fodders stronger than captain in 10 years and nemu can be used for generalization. Then Kazui defeated Yhwach and now via training even fodder are planetary level via scaling to kazui. (This is via using same logic as you. I am not serious.)
Nanao and Nemu both are special cases. If they can be used as example to generalize then we should be able to use Ichigo to generalize.
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- You didn’t say those words exactly but you’re treating them as if they are.
- You have no proof of this. I’m not even sure what you mean after the events? Are you talking about after the blood war? It was like 3 months after and people were still accounting for the vast amount of loss of life training is the last thing on their mind.
- Nemu is an artificial being not a Shinigami, and Nanao is an expert kido user it’s her speciality.
- This doesn’t even make sense. There isn’t a significant amount of time passed. And these dudes are again fodder. You’re arguing training and etc but I’m pretty sure all these assassins would be following the same set of rules, and learn the same skills.
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Nobody is arguing that.
There just isn't enough of a basis to say that all assassins have lightning-speed reaction times.
You're right. The feat isn't enough for them to be lightning speed, when looked at in context.
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- #831
No, where do you see that in those statements?
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- #833
Okay, just bear in mind that the current ratings in the sandbox are only based off of the two calcs we have to work with so far and for the most part is just using the current justifications/scaling present on the profiles.
If we take Gin's speed statement as being truthful, then that would help alter the sandbox ratings further.
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- #835
That depends on whether we accept Gin's statements on his Bankai being Mach 500 and one of the fastest Zanpakuto.
Some people are in favor of rejecting it.
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I don’t understand these ratings. It’s just hypersonic throughout several arcs. Not even an at least hypersonic for the characters clearly vastly superior to Orihime
Uryu has a Sub-Rel calc yet no one scales to it???
Uryu has a Sub-Rel calc yet no one scales to it???
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@Sigurd; from what I understand that calc is a perception calc at best. It doesn't inform us of Uryu's combat speed.
As for adding "At least" to several characters, I'm fine with that.
As for adding "At least" to several characters, I'm fine with that.
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So he can perceive things in sub-rel speeds and only move at Mach 7 speed.
Obviously there are characters that would scale above him or are you assuming Zangetsu is below him speed?
Obviously there are characters that would scale above him or are you assuming Zangetsu is below him speed?
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