Terraria Discussion thread #2: Journey's end

[Skarfz]

For starters the 8-B calc uses explosives which are stronger than barrels

the barrel uses 3 dynamites to craft, and the very next sentences are me saying "terrarian doesnt seem to survive these" so he wouldnt even scale.
edit: for context the 8-A tiering is from me thinking that there is a re-calc for it, not the barrels, i even included tungsten armor which is made from a very large amount of tungsten which is potential for higher than 8-B.

and 5-C wall of flesh isn't valid

please make a very large wall of text proving why it isn't, i need more than just "nuh uh"

 

[Lou_change]

Yes, they are sealed. The entire race of the Old One's was sealed, every single one of them was sealed in many crystals. It's specifically stated that their power was sealed, that's a completely clear, undeniable statement. It's stated twice.

Yes

It's pretty clear that it's referring to the fact the crystals weren't made to be a prison, but to imprison (it's stated twice, what was imprisoned/sealed was the Old One's power).

That is not what either line you provided says. Also they imprison things by acting as a prison

even the individual shards can be broken

I already explained why that shouldn't be used

every Eternia Crystal needs to be broken for the Old One to leave the dimension

It refers to the old ones entire species as an immortal evil that were sealed in the crystals the it says the crystals are being destroyed to unleash an ancient evil I doubt that is meant to represent just one old one

Absolutely no proof of the crystal having created the dimension, as I quite clearly explained. Unlike the heroes who have to enter a portal to get to the crystalline dimension, the Old One is clearly [1] shown [2] to have been directly sealed by the crystal (as you can see from the chains directly entering the crystal in the first example and the Old one being directly inserted in the crystal in the second).

probably because they used a different form of magic to seal them.

It zooms out and shows that the Old One in that scene was contained inside the dimension, that's a singular Old One, an Old One is stopped from leaving the dimension by more than one Eternia Crystal. That's literally the plot of DD, the enemies try destroying all of the Eternia Crystals in each map to release an Old One (the one fought in the ending). Again, you're making a claim with no proof.

That cutscene is from the second game.

please make a very large wall of text proving why it isn't, i need more than just "nuh uh"

The argument for 5-C you aren't allow to use solar tablets to summon solar eclipses prehardmode this is because you can always get into the jungle temple early do to hoiks and on occasion world gen glitches to avoid an insane progression skip it was patched alongside glitches like using them at night, or while a Solar Eclipse is already in progress. They argued it is actually part of the lore but even then Sealing isn't equal to ap.

Considering the fact that the Old One's power was what was specifically sealed (as was stated twice), there's actually more evidence for the dimension having been created from the containment of the Old One's power, backed up by the crystals being destroyed not collapsing the dimension/killing the Old One,

Your proof being

How is that portrayed as something that cannot be undone whatsoever??? The main plot of the game makes you get broken shards to make one of the crystals whole again. Even if it was something that can't be undone, that's completely irrelevant for the reasons below:

The second game where the plot revolves around the desperation to keep the remaining crystals safe.

The only way ever mentioned for the dimension to collapse is by killing the Old One, there was never any statement about the dimension collapsing if the crystals are all destroyed, there's zero arguments for that interpretation, the only possible thing that could be sustaining the dimension is the Old One.

The crystallize dimension is referred to as a prison and crystal prison it is said the environment collapses, then we are told the crystal prison shattered which weakened as the other crystal prisons are said to be failing show the Eternia Crystals, the only other times shattered is used in the video is to refer to the shattering of Eternia Crystals and we never see that crystal afterwards and if it was just the pocket dimension which you claim to be created by the Old One why would the other prisons start to weaken. This indicates to me that they are basically one and the same as well as that the crystal failing to keep the Old One in it is basically treated as the equivalent of being broken open.

 

[OrangeFR]

please make a very large wall of text proving why it isn't, i need more than just "nuh uh"

WOF sealing the spirits isn't AP

 

[Skarfz]

from wall of flesh's bestiary entry:
"Serving as the world's core and guardian, the towering demon lord exists to keep powerful ancient spirits sealed away."
from lore post:
"The Hallow, on the other hand, is of an entirely different nature. Within each world is a Guardian who serves as the worlds master and core. Once this creature is destroyed the world will release the Ancient Spirits of Light and Dark to expedite the process of finding a new Guardian."
i dont really wanna argue today anymore im lowkey too lazy, but i wanna give some attention the fact that wall of flesh himself is "the worlds core" and is technically sealed inside him.

 

[Lou_change]

from wall of flesh's bestiary entry:
"Serving as the world's core and guardian, the towering demon lord exists to keep powerful ancient spirits sealed away."
from lore post:
"The Hallow, on the other hand, is of an entirely different nature. Within each world is a Guardian who serves as the worlds master and core. Once this creature is destroyed the world will release the Ancient Spirits of Light and Dark to expedite the process of finding a new Guardian."
i dont really wanna argue today anymore im lowkey too lazy, but i wanna give some attention the fact that wall of flesh himself is "the worlds core" and is technically sealed inside him.

How does this refute anything that has been mentioned so far?

 

[Keeweed]

WOF sealing the spirits isn't AP

That wasn’t the feat though. The feat is that the solar tablet can’t make eclipses while it’s alive and they can never occur naturally either

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to the Terrarian not surviving explosives, all the bosses can and you kill them. Along with bloulder’s dealing 4 times damage purely to the player, and red’s famous love of traps well documented by his friends. I think it killing the player is the inconsistent part. I think it would be better to calc the king slime’s tackle in comparison to lightning how we used to do it. I say this particularly because lightning has an intended mechanic to strike at bosses meaning they are designed to interact with each other unlike meteor showers for example. And I suggest this over the explosives because traps in terraria function all funky because of the creator’s hard bias to them against the player versus how they interact with everything else.

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to the moon and the meteors. The celestial pillars directly state moving and holding a celestial object is a showcase of something’s power. Even assuming for some reason this just becomes different for other characters in the same game, we have the following

Every power source ever mentioned has reasons to scale. Magic is often physical attacks in Terraria that hit just as hard as all other physical classes and their armor offers similar defenses. With magic shields and projectiles also being always within the physical ball park throughout the game. Celestial power is directly stated to be able to enhance creature’s durability, and we make weapons and armors out of it at the end of the game. This is important because the crimson boss isn’t from the crimson, it’s the moonlord’s brain meaning what other power sources could it have other than celestial (which scales) or magic (which scales). Even if it is generic energy, golem’s death has that scale to as it was taken as a physical threat by the Martians to the point they immediately get ready for war over it.
If it’s the corruption that is stated to empower creatures with the hardmode worm and that the eater was its benchmark of power, along with us having proof it increases the durability and power as corrupted critters go from instantly being obliterated by you to fighting you and stone becomes nigh unbreakable to the early game player. Finally, if it’s the ancient spirits, those also empower their host as stated by the previous worm enemies.
Literally every power source we know of either has statements of straight up being a things power or to empower things
You would have to assume there is just another random esoteric system that makes holding the meteors and moon not scale, in the very same verse that has moving the moon at the end of the game directly stated to scale to the things that did it. With one of the things holding the meteors being part of the creature that scales to holding and moving the moon

 

[Lou_change]

When it comes to the Terrarian not surviving explosives, all the bosses can and you kill them.

It literally tears apart King Slime, EoW needs an explosion resistance to not get vaporized, creepers die instantly and you aren't even allowed to really use them until post skeletron

 

[Skarfz]

would the trash slot be Limited existence erasure or "nuh uh! game mechanics!"
and would terrarian get type 7 immortality negation by killing undead beings like skeletons, zombies and spirits?

 

[Keeweed]

It literally tears apart King Slime, EoW needs an explosion resistance to not get vaporized, creepers die instantly and you aren't even allowed to really use them until post skeletron

King slime easily survives with a large amount of health (he has 3500 health compared to the explosions 500 damage) and terraria is a dps game, the creepers have little health but a lot of them versus the brain himself with a lot of health and one of him. Like how the canonical equal worm can be easily shredded gameplay wise despite being the brains equal lore wise.

Many basic enemies can survive the explosives and meteors are literally invincible to the explosives. Like the end game player still instantly dies to them, despite the material your armor is made out of is invincible to them to the point the game literally add a lore bomb to destroy the ores. The power bomb has nearly the same blast radius but does 2.5 times less damage, showing the damage clearly isn’t super accurate to begin with. Especially since the bomb that does less damage, destroys something canonically more power and exist to destroy something more powerfulg

Plus platinum equipment is directly stated to break meteor while explosives need to be upgraded to power bombs to break it

 

[Lou_change]

King slime easily survives with a large amount of health (he has 3500 health compared to the explosions 500 damage)

he shrinks and splits

meteors are literally invincible to the explosives.

No it just becomes vulnerable to explosions in hardmode.

You aren't intended to use them on bosses prior to getting wiring.

 

[Keeweed]

You aren’t intended to even use them really on bosses they are specifically labeled as traps. But also it does literally nothing to meteor (till the point of the game capping it becomes pointless) while you can mine meteor with platinum. How do you square away it suddenly being explodable outside of gameplay.

Also again terraria is a game designed around dps for damage. King slime survive the explosion. The parts that break off are alive and survived too, along with the fact the eye doesn’t break apart and easily survives it. If we go off hp that means the king slime would be bulker than the brain despite the brain being directly stronger. Also power bombs create an explosions only one block smaller, and blow up materials that stay stronger in hardmode, and that deals 200. The pickaxe that breaks hardmode material also does way less damage than the explosives despite power bombs fully existing purely to destroy stuff explosives can’t

does this not all point to damage numbers obviously being a gameplay mechanic, especially since it’s well documented red absolutely loves traps. And when he designs a bomb not meant to be a trap you easily survive it even when it blows up canonically stronger materials

 

[Skarfz]

all i see is proof of High 5-A dynamites

 

[Skarfz]

these globes are interesting.
what would this even count as

 

[Keeweed]

As seen by the offical art the background is canon (also with the big meteors we see them fall in the background and those are clearly real and lantern nights are caused by people across terraria celebrating you killing a boss and that all can’t just come from your village and is in the background). So I always saw it as non combat applicable reality warping (very non combat applicable)

 

[Lou_change]

Also you can blow up meteor heads it's probably just to make you put more effort in dealing with the burning mechanic.

 

[Skarfz]

Also you can blow up meteor heads it's probably just to make you put more effort in dealing with the burning mechanic.

You can also hit meteor heads with a copper pickaxe and kill them.

 

[Lou_change]

You can also hit meteor heads with a copper pickaxe and kill them.

Doing literally one damage and thus falling under our rules for chip damage in video games due to how terraria works.

 

[Skarfz]

Doing literally one damage and thus falling under our rules for chip damage in video games due to how terraria works.

Used a bad example, heres more that can kill meteor heads with zero proof that they have the same strength/capacity as platinum pickaxes:
Killing them with umbrellas, enchanted sword/terragrim, lead/silver items, Gladius, stylish scissors, Mandible blade, and many, many more items.
Anything. Anything kills meteor heads, thats not a contradiction to meteors tanking bomb explosions.

 

[Skarfz]

In fact, bone pickaxes have more mining power than tungsten pickaxes, yet they cant mine meteorite.
I can keep on citing inconsistencies in this game.

 

[Lou_change]

In fact, bone pickaxes have more mining power than tungsten pickaxes, yet they cant mine meteorite.
I can keep on citing inconsistencies in this game.

...Are you daft?

 

[Skarfz]

Oh no i misremembered one item!!!

 

[Lou_change]

Far from the first time.

 

[Lou_change]

Used a bad example, heres more that can kill meteor heads with zero proof that they have the same strength/capacity as platinum pickaxes:
Killing them with umbrellas, enchanted sword/terragrim, lead/silver items, Gladius, stylish scissors, Mandible blade, and many, many more items.
Anything. Anything kills meteor heads, thats not a contradiction to meteors tanking bomb explosions.

Meteors only tank explosions in pre-hardmode only to other items have such a property Hellstone and Hellforge. The reasons for the Hellforge being immune is definitely different from why Meteors and Hellstone is. But for Meteors and Hellstone it is to encourage you to engage with their mechanics and when they are less relevant in hardmode the developers are nice enough to stop doing that. Let's take your explosion scaling logic to the extreme a Trash Can made of 8 Iron Bars using an anvil can protect blocks from the Celebration Mk2 using the block destroying Mini Nuke II so Iron Armor using 60 Iron Bars and the same anvil should probably scale same material and means of construction but a player with just iron armor gets one shot how strange, the Molten Pickaxe can break Dungeon Bricks while Celebration Mk2 can't so obviously Molten Pickaxe>Moon Lord, Celebration Mk2 with Mini Nuke II can't destroy Hardmode ores while Power Bombs can however neither can break the bricks made from those ores, Barrels can't be blown up but can be made into TNT Barrels. There is no explanation for why the change from pre-hardmode happens to make them weaker, the Meteor Heads which are explicitly just living meteorite are vulnerable, the wiki allows things to be more resistant to explosions than other forces if you want to make a serious argument for this make a CRT and prove it to staff.

 

[Skarfz]

alright you win or something, anyways im making a fargos souls champion profile for now, im waiting for the other terraria supporters to give their input before any CRT because the vanilla terraria scaling is giving me a headache, everything in this game is vague.
im only gonna argue for the High 3-A in the AP thread, id like to see any opinion on where vanilla terraria currently scales before the CRT because im currently with mixed feelings on the 3-B, High 5-A and 5-C stuff

 

[Lou_change]

Does anyone else have the terra cards?

 

[Keeweed]

I’m very tired and annoyed tonight and I know we are never going to see eye to eye with terraria scaling. I’m just saying my peace for now. if we go off hp and damage the tnt would be stronger than the moonlord death ray but fail to kill enemies that are designed to be killed preboss. The tnt would also obliterate the large majority of the eater of worlds despite the king slime, eye, and brain all surviving it with little issue. Also materials well before the moonlord specifically needing a in verse stronger bomb to break. Many hardmode enemies can also be one shot by tnt despite, again, the armor’s materials being invincible and the pickaxes being able to mine it. With the mining also being built around you not having a strong enough tier of material to break the last tier from the first tier and needing to get stronger equipment to progress.
need to clarify in the past I did try to downgrade the Terrarian with tnt and staff rejected it. So currently this isn’t even the staff stance (and you may be curious why I so vehemently disagree with tnt now. The reason I made the downgrade was because I misunderstood master mode and Terraria kept getting downgraded so might as well focus in on its anti feats, I have now seen how absolutely nonsensical traps are).
Two big examples of how traps in this game are absolutely not story accurate: boulders just do quad damage to the player. Nearly every enemy and npcs all face tank them but the player is obliterated. If we take traps serious the guide is stronger than the Terrarian. Second one, lightning obliterates npcs but not the player. But the dialogue says the npcs can survive being struck (one gets singed from it),so we have the reverse issue too and story contradiction directly stated.

Edit: meteor heads have only 6 defense, so they absolutely take damage from pickaxes which don’t mine meteor. Which is another showcase of hp and damage obviously being a poor reason to scale stuff in games

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah HP scaling like that isn't allowed anyways so that shouldn't be getting done if it is or someone is suggesting it

 

[Keeweed]

It’s not necessarily direct hp scaling we were talking about (minus the meteor head, that was absolutely hp) , it’s figuring out where the tnt scales because it kills the player up to end game but enemies preboss and all bosses survive it. Minus any part of the eater of worlds that gets hit by it, but that’s because it’s hp is split across like 30 body parts. So I am trying to see if the tnt should scale to king slime like it currently does, in which case it doesn’t effect the evil bosses being stated and shown to prevent meteors, meteor being invincible to it, and the eye not seeing you as a threat during the king slime tier; or if it scales far later on.

 

[Lou_change]

I don't like scaling to the trap for a couple reasons
-mechanical it is supposed to kill you instantly at least at this point
-you can't use it until post skeletron because you don't have wires
-The value assumes the destruction of pure tungsten when ore is by definition not pure
-A lot of things don't do the same damage to the player as they would enemies this included, as well as lightning which is 8-C and is able to seriously threaten most prehardmode bosses

 

[Keeweed]

The basic npcs survive the lightning (dialogue which takes priority over gameplay), the beginning game played can survive it even while dumped in a lake, and it’s elemental damage. King slime is specifically flammable yet survive when the NPC that survived it said it burnt them.
In the same way the boulder does quad damage to you. Saying “that point” would include literally the entire game including being more powerful than the moonlord’s strongest attack, meanwhile trash mobs survive it such as the lost girl. It easily includes post hardmode despite you wearing material that canonically needs a stronger bomb to break
It specifically spawns next to the vains of ore (tungsten included) and all games with destructive items like this can use what they can blow up. Minecraft and hytale both use their respective strongest materials and the max they blow up.

 

[Lou_change]

The basic npcs survive the lightning (dialogue which takes priority over gameplay)

Who?

Saying “that point” would include literally the entire game including being more powerful than the moonlord’s strongest attack, meanwhile trash mobs survive it such as the lost girl.

I mean while true that is at least in part because the head developer really loves traps. The only two types traps it appears in are dead man's chest and those ore deposits both meant to lure you using loot relevant to that point in progression and they are definitely intended to kill the player. Also that is only in expert and above I would argue it would make more sense for at least scaling purposes, considering how traps only increase the damage they deal to the player with difficulty. Also they could survive a single hit from the Zenith.

Minecraft and hytale both use their respective strongest materials and the max they blow up.

I previously made an estimate regarding how much tungsten is in ore I got like 6% based on the fact it takes 4 tungsten ore to make a bar and tungsten bars when placed become 4 to fill a block, granite might actually be better when I finally get the wiki to acknowledge that. Also you technically can't actually reach the epicenter like in those games just to the side of it because it is a background object.

Dragging pretty much any boss pre skeletron close enough to one is not really feasible besides queen bee and king slime and afterwards I would argue it is the same as bring weapons that scale higher in progression to fight them.

 

[Keeweed]

That’s never how we have calculated materials before and terraria even got downgraded for that. Celestial monoliths don’t use the amount of fragments required like they used to. Plus even assume the bars aren’t pure, you can blow up the ore which is.

“Just stay inside! I've already treated too many electrocuted patients today."
is the most obvious example, who would she be treating if they exploded, especially since their is only canonically 1 of each NPC (minus the guide who has a brother) so they absolutely can’t die canonically but as the nurse states they have been electrocuted before by storms.

 

[Lou_change]

Plus even assume the bars aren’t pure, you can blow up the ore which is

Literally the exact opposite of the definition of what ore is. You can't use the bars because nothing other than gravity is how those stacks together.

 

[Keeweed]

Are you saying that like the tungsten is just stacked on top of each other and just falls off if exploded? Because that’s not at all how the game threats any of the metals when you build with them; they connect together, the game has gravity mechanics and the ingots don’t just flop to the floor when you try to place them, they connect like all other metal beams and connecting piecing connect. And also again no other game ever has done it this way. The game states it’s a block of tungsten, the only thing in its creation is tungsten, and every similar game such as hytale and Minecraft use the ores and ingots as just their materials. It’s a block of tungsten that blows up, and it specifically naturally spawns to blow up this tungsten so it’s absolutely intended to blow up metals.


Bosses can be in the epicenter, they literally can be in the tnt

 

[Keeweed]

Though also to extra clarify, it’s a hard set rule, set in stone, that the material crafting amount in games do not count. This is a site rule and terraria even got revised specifically because of it. So you would need to make a thread on that

 

[Lou_change]

Are you saying that like the tungsten is just stacked on top of each other and just falls off if exploded?

When you place a bar, yeah.

they connect together,

Can you show this to me, I can't find anything.

the game has gravity mechanics and the ingots don’t just flop to the floor when you try to place them,

Bars cannot be placed without another block underneath them. If you stack them and break one all bars higher in the stack break and fall down.

And also again no other game ever has done it this way.

That doesn't mean they are right also they probably let you make a solid block out if a material unlike terraria.

The game states it’s a block of tungsten

?????? Where?

every similar game such as hytale and Minecraft use the ores and ingots as just their materials.

Ingots are fine if you can provide me proof that they are letting ores be treated like that I'll call that out, too.

Though also to extra clarify, it’s a hard set rule, set in stone, that the material crafting amount in games do not count.

So then should I use what is considered the typical amount of tungsten in tungsten ore?

 

[Keeweed]

being as pedantic as possible, there is still a slab of tungsten you can craft which does fully connect together (you don’t unlock cement till hardmode) and connects like other solid masses of blocks https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Tungsten_Brick

 

[Lou_change]

The five blocks made of five stones?