Terraria Discussion thread #2: Journey's end

[Skarfz]

Counter point we can literally see a bottom part of the bucket.

thats not the argument im trying to make, im gonna ask this later on a QnA thread, its much more complex than just "hey theres a bottom, so no"

 

[Lou_change]

i might make a thread about these bottomless buckets, they dont seem magic or self-replenishing at all.

contain​

1. To have within; hold.
2. To be capable of holding.
3. To have as a component or constituent part; include.

bottomless​

1. Having no bottom.
2. Too deep to be measured.
3. Difficult or impossible to understand; unfathomable.

Sponges most of which are direct counterparts obtained from similar sources. Soak up means take in. The way sponges work irl doesn't allow that to be possible there for something supernatural is occurring both probably creates or destroys liquid or transfers it to or from another location that maybe you could argue is within the object.

 

[Skarfz]

Sponges most of which are direct counterparts obtained from similar sources. Soak up means take in. The way sponges work irl doesn't allow that to be possible there for something supernatural is occurring both probably creates or destroys liquid or transfers it to or from another location that maybe you could argue is within the object.

couldnt really understand this response but ill make my reasoning clearer
the bucket is never stated to be self replenishing, its only context is that its bottomless and it contains an endless amount of water despite having a "limit" on the outside bottom, i dont really know how to explain this but its basically "an infinite space within a finite space".
a self-replenishing bucket doesnt contain infinite water, it infinitely creates water, which is not the same thing, the context of these buckets as i said is that they already have infinite water (or an incredibly high number of water, which would mean Universal LS or 3-A AP and not Infinite LS and High 3-A, it just being a very big number is likely more plausible since a finite space can exist inside a smaller finite space, but to be sure ill ask this stuff on QnA)
the objective of a sponge isnt to destroy, but to absorb liquid, so a sponge that can take infinite amounts of liquid isnt destroying anything and has interesting implications.

 

[Skarfz]

wanted to include here that even though endless musket pouch or endless quiver exist, they are explicitly shown to be duplicating the projectiles (seen by how their crafting recipe uses 9999 items to craft), which is different from the buckets/sponges as they have no crafting recipe.
i think i got to a more decent conclusion by now, the bottomless buckets/sponges themselves already are the infinite sized pocket dimension that has endless amounts of liquids (due to the tooltips stating that the buckets themselves hold all the water), the terrarian holds the entire pocket dimension, not just a "portal" to it. thats how the bucket can hold infinite water while being limited in size.
also does infinite LS automatically translate to High 3-A or not

 

[Lynieryz]

wanted to include here that even though endless musket pouch or endless quiver exist, they are explicitly shown to be duplicating the projectiles (seen by how their crafting recipe uses 9999 items to craft), which is different from the buckets/sponges as they have no crafting recipe.
i think i got to a more decent conclusion by now, the bottomless buckets/sponges themselves already are the infinite sized pocket dimension that has endless amounts of liquids (due to the tooltips stating that the buckets themselves hold all the water), the terrarian holds the entire pocket dimension, not just a "portal" to it. thats how the bucket can hold infinite water while being limited in size.
also does infinite LS automatically translate to High 3-A or not

This argument won't be accepted on the wiki. You would have to prove that the exterior of the bucket applies everything from the interior dimension, and even if you somehow proved that, it would be an outlier.

 

[Skarfz]

This argument won't be accepted on the wiki. You would have to prove that the exterior of the bucket applies everything from the interior dimension, and even if you somehow proved that, it would be an outlier.

The bucket is part of the dimension, not just a portal.
Think of a normal looking water bucket, its clearly limited in size, and then you look inside of it and it has no end, thats my point.
Bottomless water bucket:
"Contains an endless amount of water"


Also, why outlier? Anything below lunatic cultist should only have infinite LS , the high 3-A stuff would be for moon lord and his "infinite power" and "fabric of terraria" statements

 

[Skarfz]

So from the nebula blaze tooltip "from orion's belt to the palm of your hand" and from the nebula pillar bestiary entry, the planets (or at least the nebula one) on the background likely came from somewhere close to Orion's belt.
Dont know if this takes out the validity of the nebula fragment statement though, we would end up with 5-B endgame.
edit:
possible feats/calcs (dont know current value from some):

• more feats: terrarian suriving lightning strikes mid-air, duke fishron fog, 1 septillion? stars multiplied by solar flares (1 septillion? x high 6-A) (solar fragment tooltip is the heat/power of all stars in the universe, solar pillar "represents solar flares"), Possibly High 3-A from bottomless buckets
• Remove 8-A: outdated calc, ebonstone can be blown up by bombs/dynamites
• Remove High 5-A: celestial objects in the background from the pillars are not moons, they are planets confirmed in the 1.4.0.1 changelog, which makes the calc invalid
• Add 5-A: nebula fragments "the power of a galaxy resides within this fragment" is currently considered Large Planet Level for one fragment, just a reminder that we probably shouldnt scale it to the amount of fragments pillars drops since that would be kinda game mechanics, but rather the crafting from endgame armors which is 45 fragments total

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Yo, hello to ya'll, I'm new here. I know the wiki for years but only decided to make an account now.

I wanted to ask, how familiar are you guys with the Dungeon Defenders 2 crossover chainscaling Terraria to the galaxy creation/destruction feat from the Old One in the first Dungeon Defenders? This Reddit post talks about it and explains it better than I can.

Do you think it fits the wiki's requirements for a canon crossover since the crossover is in both games (not onesided), part of the progression for both games (not non-canon), the verses being close to eachother's tiers (not an outlier), the worlds being connected with a portal, the crossover being acknowledged by the Dryad's dialogue and the Dryad being able to access her corruption form from DD2 with shimmer? I don't know if a verse page would need to be made for Dungeon Defenders before you could use these arguments on Terraria's page, but I think it should apply. Also, the Old One is literally Moon Lord's cousin design-wise.

You could make the argument that only Moon Lord, Dryad and the endgame Champion (and other characters comparable to endgame Champion) scale to it because the Dryad would chainscale to the cast from DD2 and she's canonically the only character that fought the Moon Lord besides the Champion alongside the other dryads. Meanwhile, she never canonically fought anything else since she is a support buff NPC (so you don't run into the problem of early/midgame scaling to galaxy level).

If you argue that Moon Lord doesn't scale because the Dryad fought him before the DD2 crossover and she is somehow currently stronger than the Moon Lord (which is dumb as hell, but I digress), you can argue that Post-Golem Champion and Post-Golem characters scale to it by the Champion defeating the full power Old One's army that directly comes from DD2 via the portal, which are comparable to the DD2 cast that are stronger than they were in DD when they fought the Old One. Pre-Golem characters wouldn't scale because they are clearly depicted as weaker than the Post-Golem Old One's army, which means that the Pre-Golem army wouldn't be at/using their full power.

This would also give more credibility to the universal Moon Lord statement from the lore alongside the nebula fragments description about containing the power of a galaxy and the solar fragment's about containing the fury of the universe, especially since all the dryads together couldn't truly defeat the Moon Lord.

 

[Lou_change]

Isn't the Eye of Cthulhu a boss in Dungeon Defenders 2?

 

[Skarfz]

Yo, hello to ya'll, I'm new here. I know the wiki for years but only decided to make an account now.

I wanted to ask, how familiar are you guys with the Dungeon Defenders 2 crossover chainscaling Terraria to the galaxy creation/destruction feat from the Old One in the first Dungeon Defenders? This Reddit post talks about it and explains it better than I can.

Do you think it fits the wiki's requirements for a canon crossover since the crossover is in both games (not onesided), part of the progression for both games (not non-canon), the verses being close to eachother's tiers (not an outlier), the worlds being connected with a portal, the crossover being acknowledged by the Dryad's dialogue and the Dryad being able to access her corruption form from DD2 with shimmer? I don't know if a verse page would need to be made for Dungeon Defenders before you could use these arguments on Terraria's page, but I think it should apply. Also, the Old One is literally Moon Lord's cousin design-wise.

You could make the argument that only Moon Lord, Dryad and the endgame Champion (and other characters comparable to endgame Champion) scale to it because the Dryad would chainscale to the cast from DD2 and she's canonically the only character that fought the Moon Lord besides the Champion alongside the other dryads. Meanwhile, she never canonically fought anything else since she is a support buff NPC (so you don't run into the problem of early/midgame scaling to galaxy level).

If you argue that Moon Lord doesn't scale because the Dryad fought him before the DD2 crossover and she is somehow currently stronger than the Moon Lord (which is dumb as hell, but I digress), you can argue that Post-Golem Champion and Post-Golem characters scale to it by the Champion defeating the full power Old One's army that directly comes from DD2 via the portal, which are comparable to the DD2 cast that are stronger than they were in DD when they fought the Old One. Pre-Golem characters wouldn't scale because they are clearly depicted as weaker than the Post-Golem Old One's army, which means that the Pre-Golem army wouldn't be at/using their full power.

This would also give more credibility to the universal Moon Lord statement from the lore alongside the nebula fragments description about containing the power of a galaxy and the solar fragment's about containing the fury of the universe, especially since all the dryads together couldn't truly defeat the Moon Lord.

Hello and welcome home, ill check that crossover stuff later but thanks for the help.
I have a little bit of an issue with the "fabric of terraria" statements in the lore post due to the orca's bestiary entry stating "in the oceans of terraria" but otherwise it should be like a possibly low 2-C.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Hello and welcome home, ill check that crossover stuff later but thanks for the help.
I have a little bit of an issue with the "fabric of terraria" statements in the lore post due to the orca's bestiary entry stating "in the oceans of terraria" but otherwise it should be like a possibly low 2-C.

Thanks for looking into it! I have the same issue with the fabric of Terraria statement when you look at it by itself, that's why I think it should only be considered when supported by the other possible 3-C and higher feats such as the DD2 crossover and the solar/nebula fragment descriptions. Terraria is kinda inconsistent with its statements, like the Traveling Merchant stating that an "overseas" exists while the Guide asks the player if they have ever seen Goblin Scouts "on the outer regions of the world", so I think it's pretty much needed to assume the statements with the most evidence to be true, even when there are some contradictions.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

@Skarfz Regarding the speed of the verse, are you really going to nuke the speedometer? I have been making calcs for a speed feat and gathering arguments for it for a while, but it kinda needs the speedometer stuff to be gone and the FTL feats to start being considered if it's ever going to be accepted. The verse being limited by it is kinda bonkers when there's soooo many possible FTL feats in it. I have a few arguments against the scaling being limited by the speedometer I thought up myself, but that is assuming the speedometer is even used here anymore which I can't find information about. Anyway, I'll leave them here:

Unlike most sandbox games where movement is completely dependent on the player walking or flying, the dodging mechanic in Terraria from master ninja gear/hallowed armor has no defined speed value to be limited by the speedometer. The dodge already being considered movement on the wiki goes against the speedometer being considered a reliable way to scale speed in Terraria, as the dodge mechanic proves that there are types of movement that aren't measured by it.

This is further backed up by the speedometer making most measurements nonsensical, such as subsonic sound, shockwaves, light, lasers, lightning, electricity, explosions, firearms, luminite arrows which are implied to be faster than sound, whip cracks which require the whip's tip to be beyond their portrayed speed due to being sonic booms, Brain Scrambler's projectiles which are stated to be radiation, Medusa's flash of light, meteors, fallen stars, and many, many others which have their stated properties ignored.

Chalking it up to them "just being that slow" is fallacious, as just considering the speedometer to not be a reliable way to measure speed in Terraria makes all these unrealistic depictions and problems go away. At best, the only thing the speedometer would measure is the Champion's travel speed. The speedometer should be considered an unreliable game mechanic in the same vein as damage values/dps meter not being used to scale AP and the inventory not being used to scale LS, with direct/stated feats being used instead.

 

[Skarfz]

Regarding the speed of the verse, are you really going to nuke the speedometer? I have been making calcs for a speed feat and gathering arguments for it for a while, but it kinda needs the speedometer stuff to be gone and the FTL feats to start being considered if it's ever going to be accepted. The verse being limited by it is kinda bonkers when there's soooo many possible FTL feats in it. I have a few arguments against the scaling being limited by the speedometer I thought up myself, but that is assuming the speedometer is even used here anymore which I can't find information about. Anyway, I'll leave them here:

Yea the speedometer is easily discarded, good thing you got some arguments ready since speed will be next after this AP/dura revision

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Isn't the Eye of Cthulhu a boss in Dungeon Defenders 2?

The thing is, that Eye of Cthulhu is never stated to be the same one as the pre-hardmode Eye of Cthulhu fought in Terraria, so he can't chainscale. The Dungeon Defenders 2 crossover's timeframe should be around after the player finds the Tavernkeep in the underground, which only ever happens after the Eye of Cthulhu is dead. Since you can canonically summon bosses more than once, the Eye of Cthulhu would at most get a second key with the crossover scaling that doesn't scale to any other Terraria character. There's an even better possible explanation, since the Eye of Cthulhu is just one eye, there should be a second or third one due to it literally being one of Cthulhu's eyes (the Twins aren't his actual eyes, they are stated to just be recreations on the bestiary, so the other two Eyes of Cthulhu never appear in game, but they must canonically exist).

 

[Lou_change]

Unlike most sandbox games where movement is completely dependent on the player walking or flying, the dodging mechanic in Terraria from master ninja gear/hallowed armor has no defined speed value to be limited by the speedometer. The dodge already being considered movement on the wiki goes against the speedometer being considered a reliable way to scale speed in Terraria, as the dodge mechanic proves that there are types of movement that aren't measured by it.

I don't think dodges should be speed given you can dodge damage from landing after a fall and swimming lava.

This is further backed up by the speedometer making most measurements nonsensical, such as subsonic sound, shockwaves, light, lasers, lightning, electricity, explosions, firearms, luminite arrows which are implied to be faster than sound, whip cracks which require the whip's tip to be beyond their portrayed speed due to being sonic booms, Brain Scrambler's projectiles which are stated to be radiation, Medusa's flash of light, meteors, fallen stars, and many, many others which have their stated properties ignored.

Can you provide the specific examples of the bolded stuff.

The thing is, that Eye of Cthulhu is never stated to be the same one as the pre-hardmode Eye of Cthulhu fought in Terraria, so he can't chainscale. The Dungeon Defenders 2 crossover's timeframe should be around after the player finds the Tavernkeep in the underground, which only ever happens after the Eye of Cthulhu is dead. Since you can canonically summon bosses more than once, the Eye of Cthulhu would at most get a second key with the crossover scaling that doesn't scale to any other Terraria character. There's an even better possible explanation, since the Eye of Cthulhu is just one eye, there should be a second or third one due to it literally being one of Cthulhu's eyes (the Twins aren't his actual eyes, they are stated to just be recreations on the bestiary, so the other two Eyes of Cthulhu never appear in game, but they must canonically exist).

We don't have proof every part of Cthulhu came to life after being torn off. The is also the demon eyes that show up in the cross over.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I don't think dodges should be speed given you can dodge damage from landing after a fall and swimming lava.

Yes, but things like drowning and damaging yourself with the Rod of Discord ignore the dodge as they are obviously not something that can be dodged, so it shows that the developers clearly intended it to be an actual dodge (hence the name) and not a damage nullifier, especially considering the examples you provided could be explained by the player having a lucky landing and something like the player surviving a few longer seconds in lava due to the leidenfrost effect, which is supported by the dodge being luck based with a low chance of happening.

​

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Can you provide the specific examples of the bolded stuff.

Sound: Magical Harp (kinda iffy since it's magical)
Shockwaves: The Ogre's groundpound, the shockwave caused by the Celestial Pillars after their barrier is broken
Light: Medusa's light, Gastropod's laser, Last Prism, every other laser in the game
Lightning/Electricity: Literal lightning (this one is really obvious since you can literally see it travel without slowing the video down), every other lightning based weapon such as the Storm Spear and Thunder Zapper
Explosions: Explosive Trap Staff
Firearms: Quite literally 95% of the firearms in the game are subsonic except for the sniper rifle

 

[Arkhal1s4]

We don't have proof every part of Cthulhu came to life after being torn off. The is also the demon eyes that show up in the cross over.

This example is just a possibility, the Eye of Cthulhu being resummoned is far more likely. It's not just demon eyes in the crossover, there's also slimes, harpies, hornets and the nimbus, all of those don't matter as a single enemy scaling to the crossover Dryad doesn't mean the entire species back in Terraria can scale to it, so they won't chainscale back to Terraria unlike the Dryad, the (post-Golem) Dark Mage, Ogre, and Betsy.

 

[Skarfz]

Projectiles being slow is very clearly a way to balance the game because otherwise you would be having to dodge much faster stuff, you would also hit basically every shot.

 

[Skarfz]

Theres also thee issue with the space layer and underground layers being so small, especially hell which is essentially the planet's core, the devs didnt want to make the player travel for hours and hours

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Projectiles being slow is very clearly a way to balance the game because otherwise you would be having to dodge much faster stuff, you would also hit basically every shot.

Exactly. The speedometer being considered an unreliable game mechanic to scale speed (other than maybe the Champion's travel speed) is the logical conclusion, as the speed portrayed in game is intended for balancing purposes and not a representation of their actual true speed.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Theres also thee issue with the space layer and underground layers being so small, especially hell which is essentially the planet's core, the devs didnt want to make the player travel for hours and hours

That's also why I disagree with the interpretation of the world being an island, especially when the Merchant's “You have no idea how much Dirt Blocks sell for overseas." dialogue is brought up when it is contradicted by the Guide's "Ever seen the Goblin Scouts in the outer regions of the world?". Also, the Merchant's dialogue is far more likely to be a joke than the Guide's. The Guide/Order of the Guide literally wrote the lore pages of Terraria, so I would argue that his dialogue takes precedence over the Merchant's.

 

[Lou_change]

Yes, but things like drowning and damaging yourself with the Rod of Discord ignore the dodge as they are obviously not something that can be dodged

Pretty sure those also bypass strange brews invulnerability and invincibility frames.

Magical Harp (kinda iffy since it's magical)

The music notes you can control the speed of

The Ogre's groundpound

that seems to pop across a wide area all at once?

Light: Medusa's light, Gastropod's laser, Last Prism, every other laser in the game

Is Medusa's light even called that, the last prism is hit scan and normal sources of light seem instant.

Literal lightning (this one is really obvious since you can literally see it travel without slowing the video down), every other lightning based weapon such as the Storm Spear and Thunder

the latter two are questionable if they would scale to real lightning.

Firearms: Quite literally 95% of the firearms in the game are subsonic except for the sniper rifle

a decent number are inaccurate compared their closest counterparts irl.

It's not just demon eyes in the crossover, there's also slimes, harpies, hornets and the nimbus,

Those 4 are probably amped by the dryad given how her corrupting herself affects them.

entire species back in Terraria can scale to it

Terraria is in fact the only location the Eye of Cthulhu and Demon Eyes show up in dungeon defenders 2 there are also the numerous weapons from across progression in terraria you can by with souls of night

 

[Skarfz]

I should mention that when a meteor falls on your world it falls very far on the background but then its in your "island", same thing with stars.

That's also why I disagree with the interpretation of the world being an island, especially when the Merchant's “You have no idea how much Dirt Blocks sell for overseas." dialogue is brought up when it is contradicted by the Guide's "Ever seen the Goblin Scouts in the outer regions of the world?". Also, the Merchant's dialogue is far more likely to be a joke than the Guide's. The Guide/Order of the Guide literally wrote the lore pages of Terraria, so I would argue that his dialogue takes precedence over the Merchant's.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Pretty sure those also bypass strange brews invulnerability and invincibility frames.

I don't see how this changes anything about the dodge mechanic.

that seems to pop across a wide area all at once?

Slow the video down, they clearly travel below sonic speeds

Is Medusa's light even called that, the last prism is hit scan and normal sources of light seem instant.

That's ignoring Gastropod's laser and every other laser in the game such as Destroyer's probes.

the latter two are questionable if they would scale to real lightning.

The latter two are just supporting arguments, the real lightning is shown to travel and isn't instant

a decent number are inaccurate compared their closest counterparts irl.

That's exactly why I brought them up, they aren't supposed to be innacurate compared to their closest counterparts irl, the point of my entire argument is that scaling speed with the speedometer is unreliable as the speed of projectiles and effects in Terraria are obviously slowed down for gameplay balancing.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Those 4 are probably amped by the dryad given how her corrupting herself affects them.

Yep, that's one of the many reasons the rest of the species doesn't scale to it.

Terraria is in fact the only location the Eye of Cthulhu and Demon Eyes show up in dungeon defenders 2 there are also the numerous weapons from across progression in terraria you can by with souls of night

The fact the timeframe of the portal connecting Terraria to DD2 is explicitly after the Eye of Cthulhu is dead and the Tavernkeep consequentially spawns underground to enable you to open the portal proves that it is impossible for it to be the pre-hardmode Eye of Cthulhu. It's probably an amped Eye from DD2's magic, the same way as every other enemy summoned by the Dryad is amped, so no chainscaling for pre-hardmode. Terraria items being used doesn't change anything since they are being used by the crossover Dryad who would scale far above anything pre-Golem and can upgrade/amp them similarly to her summoned enemies.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I should mention that when a meteor falls on your world it falls very far on the background but then its in your "island", same thing with stars.

Yeah, there's also the fact space has low gravity and loses the blue light caused by the light refraction in the atmosphere, meaning it would need to be at least thousands of kilometers above it. The Wall of Flesh is also stated to be in the core of the world in both its achievement and its bestiary entry. Most evidence points towards the world being an actual world, it's obviously small for gameplay balancing as it isn't an infinite generating sandbox game like Minecraft.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Actually, now that I thought about it, the Dryad is shown being thrown into the portal by the Ogre, so the timeframe of the Dryad going to DD2 should actually be Post-Mech bosses (since the Ogre only spawns in the Post-Mech Old One's Army), so definitely no chainscaling for pre-hardmode Eye of Cthulhu.

 

[Lou_change]

I don't see how this changes anything about the dodge mechanic.

I feel that means that they don't invalidate my interpretation.

Slow the video down, they clearly travel below sonic speeds

To be clear I am talking how it instantly covers the horizontal area not the vertical area also I am watching a gif.

That's ignoring Gastropod's laser and every other laser in the game such as Destroyer's probes.

aren't the Gastropods lasers the only confirmed light based laser even those come from the hallow's light magic.

That's exactly why I brought them up, they aren't supposed to be innacurate compared to their closest counterparts irl, the point of my entire argument is that scaling speed with the speedometer is unreliable as the speed of projectiles and effects in Terraria are obviously slowed down for gameplay balancing.

I mean even compared to each things get weird like the Red Ryder a bb gun is comparing way better than it should compare to a hand gun for example.

The fact the timeframe of the portal connecting Terraria to DD2 is explicitly after the Eye of Cthulhu is dead and the Tavernkeep consequentially spawns underground to enable you to open the portal proves that it is impossible for it to be the pre-hardmode Eye of Cthulhu. It's probably an amped Eye from DD2's magic, the same way as every other enemy summoned by the Dryad is amped, so no chainscaling for pre-hardmode.

Do you have any basis other than the fact it gives you an explanation the eyes only show up for a blood moon and don't care about the crystal.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I feel that means that they don't invalidate my interpretation.

Terraria is very inconsistent, a single inconsistency doesn't invalidate a way bigger pile of points favoring it. The dodge should be, in fact, a dodge.

To be clear I am talking how it instantly covers the horizontal area not the vertical area also I am watching a gif.

Don't watch a gif. Use this video at the 3:12 timestamp, pause and use the , and . keys to go frame by frame, the shockwave clearly travels horizontally at subsonic speeds.

aren't the Gastropods lasers the only confirmed light based laser even those come from the hallow's light magic.

If they are confirmed, that's one more point towards the argument of the speedometer not being usable for speed scaling.

I mean even compared to each things get weird like the Red Ryder a bb gun is comparing way better than it should compare to a hand gun for example.

One or two guns being close to being accurate doesn't change the fact 99% of them are inaccurate portrayals if you use the speedometer.

Do you have any basis other than the fact it gives you an explanation the eyes only show up for a blood moon and don't care about the crystal.

As I just remembered, the Dryad is shown being thrown into the portal by the Ogre, so the earliest timeframe for the Dryad and EoC getting DD2 scaling is post-mech bosses. Since the Dryad never fought anything other than the Moon Lord in Terraria and since the EoC from the crossover isn't the Pre-hardmode one (which means it never fights anything back in Terraria) that means nothing Pre-Golem would chainscale to DD2, as the earliest direct scaling chain is the Champion fighting the full power Post-Golem Old One's Army.

 

[Lou_change]

Don't watch a gif. Use this video at the 3:12 timestamp, pause and use the , and . keys to go frame by frame, the shockwave clearly travels horizontally at subsonic speeds

I guess. The fact all of it seems to travel up at same rate is still weird shockwaves don't normally create rectangulars, cylinders, or whatever.

If they are confirmed, that's one more point towards the argument of the speedometer not being usable for speed scaling.

Yeah so our standards are a bit more complicated

One or two guns being close to being accurate doesn't change the fact 99% of them are inaccurate portrayals if you use the speedometer.

half are fictional a blowgun firing a poison dart is 75% the speed of the flintlock pistol firing the basic bullet.

Since the Dryad never fought anything other than the Moon Lord in Terraria

should scale to other npcs

EoC from the crossover isn't the Pre-hardmode one (which means it never fights anything back in Terraria)

nothing says it's not fought again.


We don't even have the full context for the feat they are scaling to

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Yeah so our standards are a bit more complicated

I'm not trying to argue about the Gastropod's laser fitting the standard, there's already enough projectiles that should travel way faster than their portrayed speed to prove my point about the speedometer.

half are fictional a blowgun firing a poison dart is 75% the speed of the flintlock pistol firing the basic bullet.

?... That's exactly my point? They being inaccurate to their IRL versions fits my point about the speedometer.

should scale to other npcs

The Dryad never fights anything in Terraria, she only gives the Nature's Blessing buff to the player and npcs and the Nature's Bane debuff to enemies. None of the npc's nor the player would scale to her until the Moon Lord, which is the only enemy that the Dryad is stated to have canonically fought.

nothing says it's not fought again.

As I previously explained, the timeframe of the DD2 crossover is, at the earliest, Post-EoC as that is when the Tavernkeep spawns and the Dryad would have gone to the DD2 verse. This means that it is impossible for the pre-hardmode Champion to have fought the EoC with DD2 scaling, since the EoC that the Champion fights in pre-hardmode was killed by them before the DD2 crossover starts, so it's literally impossible for these two EoC to be the same ones. EoC would have two keys, one for pre-hardmode and the other with DD2 scaling, and it wouldn't scale to anyone else.

 

[Skarfz]

the dryad gets stronger from killing bosses, not sure if this helps on anything but its extra information.

 

[Lou_change]

?... That's exactly my point? They being inaccurate to their IRL versions fits my point about the speedometer.

That's not a speedometer thing though

 

[Arkhal1s4]

That's not a speedometer thing though

What I meant is that the firearms in Terraria having inaccurate speeds compared to their IRL counterparts fits my point about using the speedometer for scaling speed causing nonsensical measurements. Lightning, light, lasers, explosions and of course firearms being some of them. Assuming that the speedometer is an unreliable game mechanic for scaling speed fixes all of these issues, that's why I'm bringing up examples of nonsensical speeds caused by the speedometer.

 

[Skarfz]

The scan for Old God "containing" that spiral galaxy looks like it has a bunch of other stars/galaxies on the background, this would be bare minimum multi-galaxy and you could make an argument for universal.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

the dryad gets stronger from killing bosses, not sure if this helps on anything but its extra information.

I don't think it changes anything, since my point is that no one scales to the Dryad other than the Moon Lord since she only uses buffs and debuffs to fight, never actually attacking something directly like the other npcs. Unlike the Guide (which afaik is the only npc to actually die and be replaced canonically), she is never canonically killed as she is stated to be the last of the Dryads and killing her makes one with a different name spawn, so you can't even use the argument that the player can kill npcs with lava or rotten eggs. Just damaging her isn't enough of an argument either, a pre-boss player can damage the Wall of Flesh but that doesn't mean they scale to the WoF.

As I explained before, the Eye of Cthulhu fought in DD2 isn't the same one as the Champion fought in pre-hardmode as the timeframe of the DD2 crossover is way after it already has been killed as it is a post Eater of Worlds event, the Dryad only ever spawns after the EoC is killed too, so no chainscaling problems there. The enemies in the crossover are also a non-factor as they aren't named characters that can return in Terraria and are part of a larger species (most likely having been amped), so they can't chainscale back to Terraria either.

The only possible starting point of the chainscale would be the Champion beating the full power Post-Golem Old One's Army, as the previous versions are portrayed as nerfed/weaker than them. The pre-mech Champion can defeat Empress of Light, but that doesn't mean pre-mech champion scales to endgame just because the Empress of Light can oneshot the endgame Champion during daytime with her full power. A similar logic would apply here, the Old One's Army is portrayed as weakened/nerfed before their full power is reached in the Post-Golem version of the event, so the Champion would only scale to them in their Post-Golem key as that's when the army is canonically defeated at full power.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

The scan for Old God "containing" that spiral galaxy looks like it has a bunch of other stars/galaxies on the background, this would be bare minimum multi-galaxy and you could make an argument for universal.

I have heard arguments for the crystalline dimension to be galaxy, multi-galaxy and universal, but I'm not sure which one is the most likely one to be true.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I have heard arguments for the crystalline dimension to be galaxy, multi-galaxy and universal, but I'm not sure which one is the most likely one to be true.

I thought about it for a while, I think the dimension should be at least multi-galaxy. If it was only a starry sky, you could only assume it to be multi-solar as there's no proof for them being galaxies. However, a spiral galaxy is clearly shown, and the arena the fight against the Old One takes place in is outside that galaxy. That means the fight takes place in intergalactic space, where there should be no large amount of stars (as stars are only present in large amounts inside galaxies) so the light points in the sky logically have to be galaxies, as it would be intergalactic space and not interstellar.

This video has a good visualization of this argument, the intergalactic sky is similar to the interstellar one, but every point of light is a galaxy. Maybe you could use this to argue for universal too, but it logically should be at least multi-galaxy.

 

[Skarfz]

I

I thought about it for a while, I think the dimension should be at least multi-galaxy. If it was only a starry sky, you could only assume it to be multi-solar as there's no proof for them being galaxies. However, a spiral galaxy is clearly shown, and the arena the fight against the Old One takes place in is outside that galaxy. That means the fight takes place in intergalactic space, where there should be no large amount of stars (as stars are only present in large amounts inside galaxies) so the light points in the sky logically have to be galaxies, as it would be intergalactic space and not interstellar.

This video has a good visualization of this argument, the intergalactic sky is similar to the interstellar one, but every point of light is a galaxy. Maybe you could use this to argue for universal too, but it logically should be at least multi-galaxy.

I think "multi-galaxy level, possibly universe level" works, so everything post-golem reaches that, it should be pretty easy to apply this crossverse scaling considering that the terraria devs themselves even went out of their way to make the dryad shimmer variant the same character from DD2.

Anyways, im now wondering if theres any other super good LS feat aside from platinum stuff, i was gonna argue for universal, possibly infinite LS with bottomless buckets since i have decent proof of them being like very big instead of self-replenishing (this would only upgrade LS though since universal AP this early into the game was an outlier)
Ive tried arguing that the bricks/stones from the solar/nebula fragments could be an LS upgrade but it got dismissed because "copper pickaxe mines it"