Deleting Misunderstood Information Manipulation Type 2 From Genshin UES Fundamental Mechanism

[GarrixianXD]

I don't know the context really, but arguing from a perspective of another verse that doesn't share a verse page seems immediately off. Either they're literally the same verse (in which case they must be combined and we should not be having a discussion about Genshin Impact) or they aren't and this isn't valid. I know this isn't the fundamental of your point, but it irks me a smidge.

So the current thing, then, is that people argue Info (Type 1) is manipulatable in some facet, because the leylines carry and store information about those, for lack of a better term, uploaded into it. Things like memories and skills and so on. The extent that these can be manipulated seems to vary, however- above scans talked about giving these skills to elementals, although nothing so far seems to imply, for example, that a creature would be able to use them for themselves.

The argument then pivots to say that Type 2 exists, but it isn't what most of the users of these abilities is doing. The distinction between this and Data Manipulation in this verse seems remarkably slim, although I will sign off on Info Type 2 for now.

So, I conclude that I agree with changing the broadly-applied ability to Type 1. Type 2 seems more tentative but I'll still sign off on it remaining in the way y'all have discussed above.

I think you're misunderstanding the context of the arguments presented here. The elemental energy page explains that Genshin is indeed connected to Honkai Impact 3rd and Honkai: Star Rail. It's similar to Nasuverse, which has multiple sub-verse pages for the meta series. Genshin, HI3, and HSR all have different verse pages because those are separate games.

The OP covers the removal of Type 2 Information from the basic manipulation of elemental energy, not the manipulation of ley lines, hence the information manipulation for elemental energy on a basic level has little to do with the ley lines. The entire reason that elemental energy at its basic manipulation is attributed to information and data in the first place is because it can tamper with the memories that have derived from the consciousness and, therefore contains the soul and fundamental information via its connection to Honkai: Star Rail. Aether and Nahida demonstrated that they needed to provide their elemental power, to transmute the memories, souls and consciousness (hence type 2 info) into something else (those 2 events are in the same scene btw); this part has nothing to do with the ley lines. Another attribution is that the elemental energy is in the same network of memories and souls (type 2 info) as constituents part of the Ley Lines system, therefore elemental energy is treated as fundamental information in its basic form -- I later conceded that this should only be pertained to ley lines, and shouldn't automatically interconnect souls and elemental energy for every case.

I think the question should be whether elemental energy itself is information or not. @Furina003 argued that it said memories have been reverted to elemental energy off-site, implying that memories are still made up of elemental energy in the end and therefore are indeed abstract data/information.

Since souls and consciousness are currently recognized as type 2 information/fundamental data (according to the profile pages of Honkai: Star Rail characters), I'm speaking in a POV that [soul, consciousness and memories = fundamental abstract data/information].

Td;lr, either Type 2 information hax should be kept for basic elemental manipulation, or its information manipulation should be completely removed.

 

[Dog3352]

Aether and Nahida demonstrated that they needed to provide their elemental power, to transmute the memories, souls and consciousness (hence type 2 info) into something else;

Neither Nahida nor Traveler provide their Elemental Energy here, what is happening is that the elemental beings (mushrooms) are "transforming" into Pure Elemental Energy and becoming part of Apep again, Nahida was going to give all her Elemental Energy to Apep in a way normal (without any type of transmutation, just sending Elemental Energy to Apep), but was prevented by them.
Their soul is not being transmuted, as the statement itself says, what is being transmuted into Elemental Energy is knowledge and emotions.

 

[GarrixianXD]

They provided their powers here. Those mushrooms needed the Traveller's and Nahida's powers to even do any jack in the first place, otherwise, why would they even ask for it.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Memories were mentioned here:

 

[Dog3352]

They provided their powers here. Those mushrooms needed the Traveller's and Nahida's powers to even do any jack in the first place, otherwise, why would they even ask for it.

This is to complete the missing Elemental Energy, they are not transmuting anything into Elemental Energy, just giving their own Elemental Energy to complete it.

 

[GarrixianXD]

It still took considerable effect nonetheless; it was a crucial part of the ritual after all.

 

[Dog3352]

Memories were mentioned here:

This is literally about the mushrooms' memories, there transmutation occurs only from them, not from Nahida and Traveler.

The mushrooms transform their memories and emotions into pure Elemental Energy.
Traveler and Nahida only sent the missing Elemental Energy (without any type of transmutation).

And this was just done to give more Elemental Energy to Apep so that he would no longer be corrupted by forbidden knowledge, it still has nothing to do with Info 2.

 

[Dog3352]

It still took considerable effect nonetheless; it was a crucial part of the ritual after all.

But it's just pure Elemental Energy on Nahida and Traveler's side, when a crux of it is that Traveler and Nahida were "transmuting emotions and knowledge into pure elemental energy" (which they weren't doing).

I don't even know why this continues, even if pure Elemental Energy was made of emotions and knowledge, or even if Nahida and Traveler had transmuted the mushrooms' knowledge and memories into pure Elemental Energy, none of this qualifies as Info 2 in any way.

 

[Robo432343]

i think the thread that got info 2 is accepted is like taking a very small thing and trying to make it into a very big thing

so i agree with the thread

 

[Le'garde273]

While i agree basic manipulation of elemental shouldn't have information manipulation type 2, because allogenes just manipulate byproduct of elemental like fire and etc, not actually manipulate elemental like how sovereigns do.

Garrixian before take references from my blog, though i don't put any of hsr stuff inside it.

Genshin Impact - The Core of Elements, and what it entails

vsbattles.fandom.com

There's thing i can clarify i guess, elemental called as building block (actually stated as cornerstone in cn which just synonym of fundamental) of the world isn't without context, "elementals" in general should be stand as information type 2 i believe.

Everything in universe was stated have souls that wished to be born, and all elementals or everything have it's own memories and emotion. Souls and memories technically are the same thing with different word, that originate from leylines. Souls itself is part of "will" Along with "memories-persona-wishes". Which correspond as quadrant of quality that responsible for all phenomena. Not to mention when holy blade cut will of water it's stated cut the universal will. And nahida statement also travel logs should be clear about "knowledge, speech, emotions, memories" Of being Will reverted into pure elemental energy, as pure elemental contains them.

And leylines itself referred as elemental cycle and just other name of elemental currents of light realm, since we know light realm was rebuild become human realm. The leylines wasn't just contain the souls or information, but literally it's origin where they come from.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Everything in universe was stated have souls that wished to be born, and all elementals or everything have it's own memories and emotion. Souls and memories technically are the same thing

Not Info type 2.

"will" Along with "memories-persona-wishes".

This is just a scientific observation on spirit which the ancient people divide the terminology of. And True Will from this scan is just soul detachment from mundane human will.

Which correspond as quadrant of quality that responsible for all phenomena.

Look again at this scan.

Aurelius once divided all phenomena into four category: Substance, Property, Quality and Relation.

Quadrant of Qualities: memories, wishes, souls and persona.

Your causal link are wrong.

All Phenomena = Substance, Property, Quality and Relation.
Quality =/= All Phenomena
Quality only responsible for memories, wishes, souls and persona. And this is scientific observation from guy named Aurelius that categorize all phenomena, not inherent trait that all phenomena are information.
I can't believe you misunderstood your own scan bruh.

Not to mention when holy blade cut will of water it's stated cut the universal will. And nahida statement also travel logs should be clear about "knowledge, speech, emotions, memories" Of being Will reverted into pure elemental energy, as pure elemental contains them.

Same as before.

 

[Dog3352]

The main thing about elemental beings is that they have a physical body/physical form made of pure elemental energy, this does not make Elemental Energy info 2 for elemental beings, not even type 1, it is just Inorganic Physiology, despite Elemental Energy being more "essential" due to their physical bodies being made entirely of it, does not qualify for info 2.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's similar to Nasuverse, which has multiple sub-verse pages for the meta series. Genshin, HI3, and HSR all have different verse pages because those are separate games.

Who do you think you're talking to.

Td;lr, either Type 2 information hax should be kept for basic elemental manipulation, or its information manipulation should be completely removed.

Alright, well if the proposals are those two camps, it should be removed entirely. I don't necessarily agree it's black and white like that but I also don't care to keep asking for context. I will trust you enough to reliably make such TL;DRs accurate in your opinion, and that your knowledge on the verse is sufficient to back it up. Currently, I see zero reason to award Type 2 for basic elemental manipulation.