Svtfoe downgrade.

[Oleggator]

Prologue.

So, to begin with please don't hit me. I don't think exactly that Svtfoe characters didn't deserve to be low 2C, however at the same time reasons for me doesn't suit well. I would like if people in thread wouldn explain me a questions I've got on about low 2C Svtfoe characters. My points would be more theoretically here, and I think it likely would needed in some discussion. Especially I'm feared of discussion because there's also CRT which wanted to upgrade SVTFOE characters to 2A, I'll try to use some points also from this CRT. So, without a further ado, let's give it a try. (link to 2A star CRT: https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-star-vs-the-forces-of-evil.108020/ )

Reasons.

Ok, as I remember characters in Svtfoe became low 2C for the next reasons:

1. Statement in 1-st episode that wand can destroy a universe.

2. A spell which created a universe (as I remember)

And the main person responsible for that:

3. Omnitraxus Prime.

Why i don't think that's works.

Ok, so with first two I think that this mostly gives a potential for wand~magic users, since even spells of how to destroy-create a universe are unknown to us (at least to me).

More reasonable and far harder to explain would be how Omnitraxus is exagerated, but I'll give it a try.

First of all, he isn't exactly states that, to explain, after a few seconds he said that he's space-time he said that he's "space-time guy" who's responsible for space-time problems.
For example as he said "time loop" with which was star's problem. I think when he said that he more meant the fact that he's just try to solve problems with space-time it also states that he was just putted to solve that kind of problems:

When he states that he's space and time he also states that father time is "Time-time". So technically if his statements about being space-time, and father being time-time is true, then shouldn't father time's death after destroying magic (he's magical creature after all) at least somehow affect time? And he never said he's exactly living space-time in first place tbf. His galaxy inside him also never was exactly shown. If saying more correct, we haven't seen does he's exactly carries a galaxy, since his body never was shown from inside and he was able to eat products, which later doesn't appears at his "galaxy" (sounds weird), I think his galaxy is more like a skin here. In this CRT.

Epilogue

I don't know how to end this, but I want to know how exactly it works. You can take my downgrades more as a questions on which I want to know answers.

 

[Oleggator]

I feel it was discussed, but I want to get in, with a more information about verse since I'm tbh didn't get much info about low 2C svtfoe characters in wiki(just very curious and want more details about it). Don't want to be rude or open a war here.
Edit: I would sleep now, so you wouldn't see from me comments few hours.
Edit 2: As I found out, that was spell which destroyed dimension, not created universe, but there's also a spell for creating in case of destruction. Still case didn't changes, it must give only potential to uni destruction, especially since dimensions in svtfoe can be different sized, at 2:19 the dimension shown to be not much big, the word "dimension" was also said in many ways, to describe many things. And basically the princess which performed spell planned to "rip the earth in 2", so I don't feel much of universe destruction here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll contact those knowledgable on the series; @The_real_cal_howard @CinnabarManx421 @GiverOfThePeace @OishiLover75

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I brought this up in the upgrade thread but gonna say the same thing here, dimensions are alternate universes in SVTFOE, them focusing on that one spot in 2:19 doesn't prove anything because every dimensions name is based off the focal point of that dimension, unless you want to argue Earth is literally just a planet with no stars in the sky. The princess in question was pissed an also said she wanted to nuke a mountain, so that logic would make dimensions 7-A in size. Literally every dimension is an alt universe in the infinite multiverse I don't know why people are suddenly trying to question this, it's one of the most apparent things with the show.

Also if you read that thread you would've seen the refutes to the dimensions size in that thread so this is just repetition by this point.


Rest of the downgrade stuff seems to be personal issue rather then actual debunks btw, like "universal stuff isn't enough to me" it's directly explained what she did, she charged her wand and it blasted destroying the universe in the process, along with Queen Mewni's hype statement of the universe being destroyed along with it's power being claimed the most powerful relic putting above the box of truth that can absorb entire universes. No clue if this means it needs to be downgraded to 3-A or whatever but it definitely shouldn't be anything lower then 3-A.

 

[Oleggator]

Well, "universal stuff didn't looked much for me" I said only in case of dimension destruction, since dimension are called dimensions for a reason. But my main point is that it only gives potential for other magic users, like, no one have ever used that spell or have a big knowledge of that spell(since it doesn't gets much mentioned in series), the fact that they're can use the spell isn't denied, however at same time no one actually shown to be scaled to that (Also a little question, but when Mewbery was shown to be stronger than magic wand in max potential?). Mainly everyone is scaled to Omnitraxus, so I wanted to give him most attention.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Spells are based off users imagination according to glossaryck so it's just how imaginative you are, Star has higher imagination then Skywene so she'd scale above, also that dimension destroying spell isn't the only low 2-C feat, note also the wands consistent hype statements that should scale it above the box and Queen Moon's hype statement for it. Also since Star has read the magic book, along with every other Princess, they all are aware of the spell. Only one you could possibly say isn't is Ludo.

Mewberty is a higher state of dipping down. Dipping down is explained by glossaryck to be reaching into the magic of the universe far more then the wand can:

So I'm assuming that's where the statement comes from?

Don't know what the consensus in on OP but after how overdone the last thread is I really do not care about his scaling on this wiki.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

His galaxy inside him also never was exactly shown. If saying more correct, we haven't seen does he's exactly carries a galaxy, since his body never was shown from inside and he was able to eat products, which later doesn't appears at his "galaxy" (sounds weird), I think his galaxy is more like a skin here. In this CRT.

Wasn't the inside of Omni's body actually shown here?

Also I agree with Giver, it's pretty clear that SVTFOE uses the term "dimension" to refer to parallel universes just like a lot of other fictions.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Have to disagree here immensely.

People keep misinterpreting the Skywynne statement. She directly said she was aiming to only rip the Earth in two, but she accidentally destroyed the entire dimension instead. That's why the entire spell is literally called "What to do when you explode a dimension," which clearly shows that part wasn't intentional and that it'd be superior to splitting an entire planet in half.

As for the dimension stuff, it's literally the exact same arguments as the last thread. I've made a doc to compile everything that directly debunks this misconception, not try to explain it like seven times again.

 

[Oleggator]

Spells are based off users imagination according to glossaryck so it's just how imaginative you are, Star has higher imagination then Skywene so she'd scale above, also that dimension destroying spell isn't the only low 2-C feat, note also the wands consistent hype statements that should scale it above the box and Queen Moon's hype statement for it. Also since Star has read the magic book, along with every other Princess, they all are aware of the spell. Only one you could possibly say isn't is Ludo.

Mewberty is a higher state of dipping down. Dipping down is explained by glossaryck to be reaching into the magic of the universe far more then the wand can:

So I'm assuming that's where the statement comes from?

Star and others have read the book, but again, spell doesn't have exactly mentioned in book, only the spell in case if dimension would be destroyed. A statement which states mewbetry form > wand seems more like give more versatility of magic use but not stats increasing, glossaryck later explains it just as the fact that she can use magic without wand. Later in season 3 end, Star in Mewbetry form have beaten by Meteora but later Meteora have easily beaten by Eclipsa just by wand, meaning that there's also matters an experience of spells. I think glossaryck meant that you can use more magic after "go deep down", since wand have shown to have a limit while after "deeping down", Star doesn't have limits of using magic(or capacity increased).

Wasn't the inside of Omni's body actually shown here?

If every universe is inside of Omni's body then his death (which happened 2 times) must destroy the other universes. So I'm guessing he just teleported star to other place here.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

If every universe is inside of Omni's body then his death (which happened 2 times) must destroy the other universes. So I'm guessing he just teleported star to other place here.

The first time he died was a time when a dude absorbed his powers. We can either make a conclusion that Toffee stabilizes it because of that afterward or that Omnitraxus' avatar is killed to such a degree that he can't make more to interfere.

The second time doesn't even matter because all of the dimensions were merged together by Star and Marco. It wouldn't count against him.

 

[Oleggator]

The first time he died was a time when a dude absorbed his powers. We can either make a conclusion that Toffee stabilizes it because of that afterward or that Omnitraxus' avatar is killed to such a degree that he can't make more to interfere.

If only Omni's avatar is killed then where was the real one(and if that's an avatar, then why anyone should scale as uni to him?) ? Even though it's absorption, it's more like life absorption here since other members of high commission have also died from that absorption losting their lifes, it must cause at least some affect into space-time.

People keep misinterpreting the Skywynne statement. She directly said she was aiming to only rip the Earth in two, but she accidentally destroyed the entire dimension instead. That's why the entire spell is literally called "What to do when you explode a dimension," which clearly shows that part wasn't intentional and that it'd be superior to splitting an entire planet in half.

As for the dimension stuff, it's literally the exact same arguments as the last thread. I've made a doc to compile everything that directly debunks this misconception, not try to explain it like seven times again.

But if multiverse in Svtfoe are infinite why it does have an end(aka the tavern at the end of multiverse)? And like, again, can someone scale to that except for Skywynne, since no one showed that level?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Star and others have read the book, but again, spell doesn't have exactly mentioned in book, only the spell in case if dimension would be destroyed. A statement which states mewbetry form > wand seems more like give more versatility of magic use but not stats increasing, glossaryck later explains it just as the fact that she can use magic without wand. Later in season 3 end, Star in Mewbetry form have beaten by Meteora but later Meteora have easily beaten by Eclipsa just by wand, meaning that there's also matters an experience of spells. I think glossaryck meant that you can use more magic after "go deep down", since wand have shown to have a limit while after "deeping down", Star doesn't have limits of using magic(or capacity increased).

Spell does have a mention in the book, it's literally a charged version of her blast she describes beforehand, I'm assuming you've read the scan if you're trying to make this argument. Yes glossaryck does explain that, idk what that mitigates, the sky is also blue. Actually no, Eclipsa is directly state to be a more powerful magic user then Star, it's not experience. That's an assumption not really elaborated on, especially since he directly explains it as grabbing for the trunks. Wand doesn't really have a limit either, it literally goes as far as your imagination will take it, so this interpretation doesn't work.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

But if multiverse in Svtfoe are infinite why it does have an end(aka the tavern at the end of multiverse)? And like, again, can someone scale to that except for Skywynne, since no one showed that level?

Tavern at the end of the multiverse is in context that the other side is non-existence, it's not the actual "end" as you're thinking.

 

[Oleggator]

Spell does have a mention in the book, it's literally a charged version of her blast she describes beforehand, I'm assuming you've read the scan if you're trying to make this argument. Yes glossaryck does explain that, idk what that mitigates, the sky is also blue. Actually no, Eclipsa is directly state to be a more powerful magic user then Star, it's not experience. That's an assumption not really elaborated on, especially since he directly explains it as grabbing for the trunks. Wand doesn't really have a limit either, it literally goes as far as your imagination will take it, so this interpretation doesn't work.

However just to charge sounds very vague, most every spell have own name, and the spell which destroyed entire universe definitely must have own name which didn't mentioned(especially since it's so strong that even Skywynne herself couldn't handle that energy).
And Eclipsa stated not for nothing, however by logic of imagination power scale, by which comes assumption that Star > Skywynne, Star must've been stronger than Eclipsa (even though we haven't seen how much Skywynne have imagination, as much as we don't much have seen Skywynne herself).
Wand have technically a limit since there was entire episode based on fact, that wand needed to be charged(), since Star is pretty good with imagination I don't really see how is possible to wand get discharged by this logic.
As glossaryck stated it's a metaphor, so better would be explain it more directly, since metaphors have different meanings and better would be based on eviedences we got here. So to make my point I'll mention the fact that Glossaryck made a wand just by touching some of Magic liquid and putting it on wand to make a magic wand. Star turn back this liquid back into yellow after "deep down" , so assumption is mewbetry form and just deep down, gives you limitless capacity of that magic, while wand capacity can end.

Tavern at the end of the multiverse is in context that the other side is non-existence, it's not the actual "end" as you're thinking.

And at same time stated by Heekapoo as end of reality. But there's more evidences on multiverse of svtfoe being infinite, so I wouldn't be questionable here and try to concentrate exactly on scaling to that "dimension destruction" spell which still doesn't looks much scalable.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

If only Omni's avatar is killed then where was the real one(and if that's an avatar, then why anyone should scale as uni to him?) ? Even though it's absorption, it's more like life absorption here since other members of high commission have also died from that absorption losting their lifes, it must cause at least some affect into space-time.

It was in the Plains of Time, and the Avatar would scale AP-wise because there are like multiple points in the series Omni even uses portaled attacks from his true self and they're still comparable to his normal avatar. He's still absorbing their properties, it doesn't change the circumstance.

But if multiverse in Svtfoe are infinite why it does have an end(aka the tavern at the end of multiverse)? And like, again, can someone scale to that except for Skywynne, since no one showed that level?

Tavern at the End of the Multiverse is not the literal end of the multiverse. It's called that because it's a place that borders on complete non-existence.

Baby directly states Star's magical altitude rivals a younger Eclipsa's, who was the most impressive magic-wise of all previous queens. Moon downscales from them, which is why she gets the Low 2-C. We don't have any other profiles for the Queens of Mewni, so there's no issue in keeping it the way it is.

 

[Oleggator]

It was in the Plains of Time, and the Avatar would scale AP-wise because there are like multiple points in the series Omni even uses portaled attacks from his true self and they're still comparable to his normal avatar. He's still absorbing their properties, it doesn't change the circumstance.

So... A questions then appears: Where was stated or directly shown that Omni's have an ability to make a clones? I'm thinking you would mean this:
But the problem is that wasn't an avatar, it was him talking through the glass ball. To show a difference in other episodes (such as final ones) Omni've seen in real form with 0 difficulties, in other places, and if he wasn't actually killed by Tofee and it was the avatar, then he should've done something against the Tofee later in season 3, but he came back instead exactly after magic came back and magic commission was killed. Shortly saying it was actually him, who was killed by Tofee, since he's form after 2-nd death (corpse in other words) is same with his form after a 1-st death: lying skull mask. So if he's actually space-time in all of reality, then his death must something at least change in that reality.

Tavern at the End of the Multiverse is not the literal end of the multiverse. It's called that because it's a place that borders on complete non-existence.

Well, giver of peace already gived me an explanation here, but I'll say again, since there's more evidence to back up infinite multiverse in svtfoe than to contradict it, it feels ok, but at the same time didn't giving much for anyone in verse.

Baby directly states Star's magical altitude rivals a younger Eclipsa's, who was the most impressive magic-wise of all previous queens. Moon downscales from them, which is why she gets the Low 2-C. We don't have any other profiles for the Queens of Mewni, so there's no issue in keeping it the way it is.

My main point isn't the fact that there's no much profiles for queens of mewny, which is ok, since not much queens had appearance in show, but the scaling. And the issue I see exactly, is the word here used out of context, Eclipsa directly stated as most impressive "magic-wise" queens, or as Baby described: "skill level". The keyword here is "skill", but this doesn't give something for power (As I understand Baby's exam was something like IQ test but with magic skills, since Eclipsa still knows much more spells and shown to be stronger than Star in Mewbetry form, but this is just assumption). Magic itself is not only a destruction, but also big versatility of other stuff, which can be used. Kakashi for example is more skilled than Naruto when it comes to powers. But Naruto have a bigger power than him. Same goes pretty much in this case.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

So... A questions then appears: Where was stated or directly shown that Omni's have an ability to make a clones? I'm thinking you would mean this:
But the problem is that wasn't an avatar, it was him talking through the glass ball. To show a difference in other episodes (such as final ones) Omni've seen in real form with 0 difficulties, in other places, and if he wasn't actually killed by Tofee and it was the avatar, then he should've done something against the Tofee later in season 3, but he came back instead exactly after magic came back and magic commission was killed. Shortly saying it was actually him, who was killed by Tofee, since he's form after 2-nd death (corpse in other words) is same with his form after a 1-st death: lying skull mask. So if he's actually space-time in all of reality, then his death must something at least change in that reality.

You literally see it in the episode he's introduced in. He made a smaller version to enter himself and explain space-time to Star. Him talking through a glass ball is a pretty clear indicator he stays in the Plains of Time, that hurts your point more than anything. Those are avatars of Omni, and him not doing anything would just mean Toffee killed the Avatar to such a degree that he couldn't make another to do something else. The fountain just brought the avatar back to life. It'd look the same because they maintain the same appearance. Your only case here for reality shifting would be Toffee killing him because the other instance literally has Star and Marco merge the multiverse together (which literally invalidates his purpose altogether), and it's still openly contentious on that front even then.

My main point isn't the fact that there's no much profiles for queens of mewny, which is ok, since not much queens had appearance in show, but the scaling. And the issue I see exactly, is the word here used out of context, Eclipsa directly stated as most impressive "magic-wise" queens, or as Baby described: "skill level". The keyword here is "skill", but this doesn't give something for power (As I understand Baby's exam was something like IQ test but with magic skills, since Eclipsa still knows much more spells and shown to be stronger than Star in Mewbetry form, but this is just assumption). Magic itself is not only a destruction, but also big versatility of other stuff, which can be used. Kakashi for example is more skilled than Naruto when it comes to powers. But Naruto have a bigger power than him. Same goes pretty much in this case.

I'm not saying you said that; I'm just saying the current ones we have scaling to her are justified. It's not really out of context as it's referring to her magical potential too. Star completed the test in a completely unconventional manner. It shows that in comparison with other Queens that she has evaluated, Star's aptitude was far beyond the others, aside from Eclipsa. Even if you want to disregard that, we have confirmation that Star has read all of Skywynne's chapter. She would be completely aware of the spell and how to perform it (you even see the page open in the show). We can presume Moon knows about it as well because of her statements of the wand's destructive capacity. Eclipsa naturally upscales from them, and she has a spell that can destroy existence too. Literally, all of them have something to support their Tier 2 rating. I'm not sure why you keep insisting they don't have the means to be Tier 2. The Naruto and Kakashi example doesn't work considering the context in the show outright supports their skill would be transitive to more power even as well.

 

[Oleggator]

You literally see it in the episode he's introduced in. He made a smaller version to enter himself and explain space-time to Star. Him talking through a glass ball is a pretty clear indicator he stays in the Plains of Time, that hurts your point more than anything. Those are avatars of Omni, and him not doing anything would just mean Toffee killed the Avatar to such a degree that he couldn't make another to do something else. The fountain just brought the avatar back to life. It'd look the same because they maintain the same appearance. Your only case here for reality shifting would be Toffee killing him because the other instance literally has Star and Marco merge the multiverse together (which literally invalidates his purpose altogether), and it's still openly contentious on that front even then.

First of, that's can be an teleport to another dimension for explaining as well, it's really didn't described ability. Him talking in glass ball indicates him
...
Just talking in the ball, if he actually could use an avatar to hold true himself in plains of time, then there wouldn't be needing for that glass ball. We're talking here about a guy which was close to changing space-time. I don't really think if that's just an avatar then, Omni wouldn't do something to stop him even though his avatar is dead, he could make at least a hint of him being alive. Like, no one stated in series he can actually make an avatars. And if that's an avatar then killing or damaging him logically wouldn't make anyone low 2C, since it's an avatar and not actually a space-time. And in both of those 2 deaths he died similary as well.

I'm not saying you said that; I'm just saying the current ones we have scaling to her are justified. It's not really out of context as it's referring to her magical potential too. Star completed the test in a completely unconventional manner. It shows that in comparison with other Queens that she has evaluated, Star's aptitude was far beyond the others, aside from Eclipsa. Even if you want to disregard that, we have confirmation that Star has read all of Skywynne's chapter. She would be completely aware of the spell and how to perform it (you even see the page open in the show). We can presume Moon knows about it as well because of her statements of the wand's destructive capacity. Eclipsa naturally upscales from them, and she has a spell that can destroy existence too. Literally, all of them have something to support their Tier 2 rating. I'm not sure why you keep insisting they don't have the means to be Tier 2. The Naruto and Kakashi example doesn't work considering the context in the show outright supports their skill would be transitive to more power even as well.

So, in other words it was something like test of her magic skills, like what she can perform. I understand the proof of that she knows the spell, but at same time we doesn't know exactly the spell. If using that page about spell, Skywynne explained only circumstance of how she destroyed dimension by long charged shot. So Star due to her high creativity can actually destroy the universe, since she's better skilled than mostly any queen of Mewny, but still potentially since it's skill and not a pure power. Moon know that spell can destroy a universe but again we don't know exactly are she capable of doing that. Let's remember the fact that spell in book which's written about is "what to do if you explode dimension" not "how to explode dimension". Eclipsa stated and shown to be stronger than any princess, not only by pure power, but also as you mentioned by her spells. However Eclipsa also would have only potential to it, since again, she can, but we don't know for sure since again, spell didn't have exactly shown name.
Naruto and Kakashi is example where expirienced not means stronger. The same pretty much goes here, Star and Eclipsa have stated to be most skilled, but not stated to be strongest.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I'm neutral towards these revisions

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

However just to charge sounds very vague, most every spell have own name, and the spell which destroyed entire universe definitely must have own name which didn't mentioned(especially since it's so strong that even Skywynne herself couldn't handle that energy).
And Eclipsa stated not for nothing, however by logic of imagination power scale, by which comes assumption that Star > Skywynne, Star must've been stronger than Eclipsa (even though we haven't seen how much Skywynne have imagination, as much as we don't much have seen Skywynne herself).
Wand have technically a limit since there was entire episode based on fact, that wand needed to be charged(), since Star is pretty good with imagination I don't really see how is possible to wand get discharged by this logic.
As glossaryck stated it's a metaphor, so better would be explain it more directly, since metaphors have different meanings and better would be based on eviedences we got here. So to make my point I'll mention the fact that Glossaryck made a wand just by touching some of Magic liquid and putting it on wand to make a magic wand. Star turn back this liquid back into yellow after "deep down" , so assumption is mewbetry form and just deep down, gives you limitless capacity of that magic, while wand capacity can end.

And at same time stated by Heekapoo as end of reality. But there's more evidences on multiverse of svtfoe being infinite, so I wouldn't be questionable here and try to concentrate exactly on scaling to that "dimension destruction" spell which still doesn't looks much scalable.

No it doesn't "sound vague" at all. There's nothing uncertain, unclear, or anything about the meaning, it's literally what it is, she charged up the blast to destroy the universe. Also what? Skywene could handle the energy, did you read the scan or not?

I have no clue what "And Eclipsa stated not for nothing" even means. Can I see any proof why Star would have more imagination then Eclipsa? This is just a random statement made with no basis.

The Wand needing to get charged is a weakness of the wand not a limitation of it's magic, those are two completely different things.

Yes and if you watch the scene the metaphor is using a soup as an replacement for the universe so that doesn't debunk anything. Wand Capcity can't end that has never once been statement, so again, this cannot be used.

It is scalable, no offense but your arguments are claims with no evidence or trying to argue something sounds vague when objectively be definition that's not what vague means.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So, in other words it was something like test of her magic skills, like what she can perform. I understand the proof of that she knows the spell, but at same time we doesn't know exactly the spell. If using that page about spell, Skywynne explained only circumstance of how she destroyed dimension by long charged shot. So Star due to her high creativity can actually destroy the universe, since she's better skilled than mostly any queen of Mewny, but still potentially since it's skill and not a pure power. Moon know that spell can destroy a universe but again we don't know exactly are she capable of doing that. Let's remember the fact that spell in book which's written about is "what to do if you explode dimension" not "how to explode dimension". Eclipsa stated and shown to be stronger than any princess, not only by pure power, but also as you mentioned by her spells. However Eclipsa also would have only potential to it, since again, she can, but we don't know for sure since again, spell didn't have exactly shown name.
Naruto and Kakashi is example where expirienced not means stronger. The same pretty much goes here, Star and Eclipsa have stated to be most skilled, but not stated to be strongest.

Olegattor, the Naruto and Kakashi example is an outright false equivalence. Kakashi and Naruto are not magic users that read from the same book and learn about all the spells and how to do them through there. You have directly ignored how in the "what to do if you explode dimension" it explains the situation, and also the way she explains it is something virtually any princess can do via dipping down as she doesn't even use a spell, she just uses a regular charged blast from the wand.

 

[Oleggator]

No it doesn't "sound vague" at all. There's nothing uncertain, unclear, or anything about the meaning, it's literally what it is, she charged up the blast to destroy the universe. Also what? Skywene could handle the energy, did you read the scan or not?

"When I couldn't hold on to it any longer, I let out mighty blast..."
You can read it by himself: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629084944555048990/629105953907933194/36-7f0fdca920.png
As I also looked she stated she have done spell in Mewbetry form as she was describing: "I knew I must be dipping down for the first time".

I have no clue what "And Eclipsa stated not for nothing" even means. Can I see any proof why Star would have more imagination then Eclipsa? This is just a random statement made with no basis.

I meant that she stated as more skilled not for nothing. Star's creativity was shown to be on par with Eclipsa. Eclipsa in other hand have shown to be stronger cause Meteora fight scene.

The Wand needing to get charged is a weakness of the wand not a limitation of it's magic, those are two completely different things.

Not much different if think about it. The fact that it needs charger means it needs energy, meaning wand have a limit with energy.

Yes and if you watch the scene the metaphor is using a soup as an replacement for the universe so that doesn't debunk anything. Wand Capcity can't end that has never once been statement, so again, this cannot be used.

He replaced a cauldron as universe, not soup. Magic is inside of that cauldron, wand can use only part of it, the surface of soup, for using magic without wand you must dip down, go and get more that magic.

It is scalable, no offense but your arguments are claims with no evidence or trying to argue something sounds vague when objectively be definition that's not what vague means.

Ok, if it's scalable, then how the fact that multiverse of svtfoe is infinite, have powered someone?

Olegattor, the Naruto and Kakashi example is an outright false equivalence. Kakashi and Naruto are not magic users that read from the same book and learn about all the spells and how to do them through there. You have directly ignored how in the "what to do if you explode dimension" it explains the situation, and also the way she explains it is something virtually any princess can do via dipping down as she doesn't even use a spell, she just uses a regular charged blast from the wand.

Again, that was used as example of case where "more skill" doesn't mean "more power". They're not magic users but they are an example of how even though experience, power can be different. And 0 words about name of spell, it makes sense to not telling spell, because as Ploz stated, she put a symbol of how it's dangerous. Also if she even dipped down and couldn't handle the power of that universe destruction give a meaning that it's pretty much hard circumstance of universe destruction.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

First of, that's can be an teleport to another dimension for explaining as well, it's really didn't described ability. Him talking in glass ball indicates him
...
Just talking in the ball, if he actually could use an avatar to hold true himself in plains of time, then there wouldn't be needing for that glass ball. We're talking here about a guy which was close to changing space-time. I don't really think if that's just an avatar then, Omni wouldn't do something to stop him even though his avatar is dead, he could make at least a hint of him being alive. Like, no one stated in series he can actually make an avatars. And if that's an avatar then killing or damaging him logically wouldn't make anyone low 2C, since it's an avatar and not actually a space-time. And in both of those 2 deaths he died similary as well.

That "other dimension" you're talking about is Omnitraxus' gut. The ability doesn't really need to be described as well; the intent on how it works is incredibly blatant. The preponderance of the evidence would suggest that the burden of proof has been met: Omnitraxus has shown something that essentially operates as acting through smaller versions of himself.

How is just talking into a crystal ball not more convenient than having to create an avatar and sending it off to another location? Your logic is very disjointed here. Okay, yet again, how is he going to interact with something if his avatar is affected to such a degree that the true form cannot do anything? Literally, all of your points against this are gripes that would either be chalked up to PIS or the potency of Toffee's abilities. Why would they need to state he makes avatars? You get a visual representation of him doing that in an episode. It's completely redundant otherwise. Omnitraxus isn't Tier 2 for just embodying something; he also stops the multiverse from eating itself. No, the way he dies in both is incredibly different. The first one is because he got his avatar affected by Toffee's life absorption, while the other one is when Star, Moon, and the others nuked the Realm of Magic. The second one would absolutely kill the true form because Omnitraxus' existence is dependent on the concept of magic. It gets negated because of the fusion of realities.

So, in other words it was something like test of her magic skills, like what she can perform. I understand the proof of that she knows the spell, but at same time we doesn't know exactly the spell. If using that page about spell, Skywynne explained only circumstance of how she destroyed dimension by long charged shot. So Star due to her high creativity can actually destroy the universe, since she's better skilled than mostly any queen of Mewny, but still potentially since it's skill and not a pure power. Moon know that spell can destroy a universe but again we don't know exactly are she capable of doing that. Let's remember the fact that spell in book which's written about is "what to do if you explode dimension" not "how to explode dimension". Eclipsa stated and shown to be stronger than any princess, not only by pure power, but also as you mentioned by her spells. However Eclipsa also would have only potential to it, since again, she can, but we don't know for sure since again, spell didn't have exactly shown name.
Naruto and Kakashi is example where expirienced not means stronger. The same pretty much goes here, Star and Eclipsa have stated to be most skilled, but not stated to be strongest.

I never said otherwise? Dude, the spell is literally just a charged up blast that Skywynne did when dipping down. It's nothing special, and we know Star can dip down. That is why she even has a Butterfly form. It's not really just because of her high creativity; you're just diminishing the argument here. Again, it's a charged blast that they can do in their Butterfly forms. Not only that, Star reading Skywynne's chapter would mean she would know how to do this. The only argument you could even potentially make is that we don't see Star do it on screen, but it's honestly unnecessary if she has evidence suggesting that she can still do it. Okay, I'm going to ask a simple question... Why would Moon warn Star about the wand being able to do that at all if it's not something even someone of her skill caliber can do? You have to keep in mind that Moon has been using the Royal Magic Wand for approximately fifteen to twenty years of her life. At this point in the series as well, Star's potential isn't an established concept either. There would literally be no reason to make a statement such as that if it wasn't possible to do on accident (which is literally how Skywynne does it). Your arguments make no sense, and they find every excuse to try to disregard Tier 2.

How Skywynne destroyed the dimension is written in the book. That's literally where that description comes from, so your point about the label is incredibly moot. You're right about Eclipsa; I never really said anything about that was wrong. Wait, are you saying Eclipsa is the only person that she is the only person who can use it? If so, that's outright false. She states that it's her mom's spell, not hers. However, I don't think you'd be completely wrong in saying that not everyone can use it. The difference, as Giver said, is that Naruto and Kakashi aren't magic users that receive training from the same book and mentor. So yes, it's a false equivalence. Star and Eclipsa are consistently the strongest. Moon literally couldn't do anything to the Solarian Warriors while Star and Eclipsa could. Even in Season 3, Star at that time was arguably doing better against Meteora than Moon did because Star fought a Meteora with more souls to amp her. Then, she proceeded to blind her. There's literally so much evidence to suggest this in the series; I have no idea how you can disregard all of the implications and showings.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

"When I couldn't hold on to it any longer, I let out mighty blast..."
You can read it by himself: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629084944555048990/629105953907933194/36-7f0fdca920.png
As I also looked she stated she have done spell in Mewbetry form as she was describing: "I knew I must be dipping down for the first time".

You are unironically hurting your own arguments right now. That was something she did on her first time dipping down. It's not something she did with prolonged experience; it's something she did on her first try with a random blast that doesn't even have a name. I cannot even understand your scaling qualms at this point. They are completely unjustified if someone can do that on their first try and without a specific spell. At this point, I'd actually like you to give proof of some kind. The evidence is stacked against you, and you keep showing unwarranted skepticism.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"When I couldn't hold on to it any longer, I let out mighty blast..."
You can read it by himself: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629084944555048990/629105953907933194/36-7f0fdca920.png
As I also looked she stated she have done spell in Mewbetry form as she was describing: "I knew I must be dipping down for the first time".

I meant that she stated as more skilled not for nothing. Star's creativity was shown to be on par with Eclipsa. Eclipsa in other hand have shown to be stronger cause Meteora fight scene.

Not much different if think about it. The fact that it needs charger means it needs energy, meaning wand have a limit with energy.

He replaced a cauldron as universe, not soup. Magic is inside of that cauldron, wand can use only part of it, the surface of soup, for using magic without wand you must dip down, go and get more that magic.

Ok, if it's scalable, then how the fact that multiverse of svtfoe is infinite, have powered someone?

Again, that was used as example of case where "more skill" doesn't mean "more power". They're not magic users but they are an example of how even though experience, power can be different. And 0 words about name of spell, it makes sense to not telling spell, because as Ploz stated, she put a symbol of how it's dangerous. Also if she even dipped down and couldn't handle the power of that universe destruction give a meaning that it's pretty much hard circumstance of universe destruction.

So your assumption is that because someone said "they couldn't hold on" equates "they couldn't handle it" like what? You realize what couldn't hold on means correct? It means that you can't wait any longer. The mewberty form comment literally further supports Star and co. scale.

How has it shown to be on par with Eclipsa? This is a baseless claim. Prove it.

No it is different, I explained why.

Ok replace universe with magic does not really change my point at all.

No offense but this question wasn't coherent at all, please ask it coherently.

And as I explained in my comment it was an awful example and a false equivalence. Because it's a nameless spell, it has no name, it's literally just a charged blast, what are you not getting about that? She could handle it, or else she wouldn't be able to do it and it's really not that hard, when she charged it up and did said blast.

 

[Galvino]

I agree with Giver and Ploz on mostly everything here. 3-A for the top tiers of the verse is the bare minimum. 2-C is where I'm uncertain but it's possible.

 

[Oleggator]

That "other dimension" you're talking about is Omnitraxus' gut. The ability doesn't really need to be described as well; the intent on how it works is incredibly blatant. The preponderance of the evidence would suggest that the burden of proof has been met: Omnitraxus has shown something that essentially operates as acting through smaller versions of himself.

Which again, wasn't stated. If again, entire multiverse is inside of him, his death must cause the death of that multiverse, even though every dimension become a single one, his death still must've ended multiverse. Avatar assumption is wasn't shown somewhere in show and again contradictive to the fact that he's died. Like, define, he's shown only as avatar so that wouldn't make someone low 2C, because his avatar isn't space-time, or he actually come but he's not a space-time since he died. The ability was so incredibly blatant, that it's get called size manipulation which he's actually showed instead of Avatar.

How is just talking into a crystal ball not more convenient than having to create an avatar and sending it off to another location? Your logic is very disjointed here. Okay, yet again, how is he going to interact with something if his avatar is affected to such a degree that the true form cannot do anything? Literally, all of your points against this are gripes that would either be chalked up to PIS or the potency of Toffee's abilities. Why would they need to state he makes avatars? You get a visual representation of him doing that in an episode. It's completely redundant otherwise. Omnitraxus isn't Tier 2 for just embodying something; he also stops the multiverse from eating itself. No, the way he dies in both is incredibly different. The first one is because he got his avatar affected by Toffee's life absorption, while the other one is when Star, Moon, and the others nuked the Realm of Magic. The second one would absolutely kill the true form because Omnitraxus' existence is dependent on the concept of magic. It gets negated because of the fusion of realities.

Then he must've been always talking through an glass ball, if it comes to that. Ok, where are you get the info that Tofee did it in such degree that he couldn't make another one, or at least where was a hint that he was still alive during beginning of season 3 and that it was an avatar which died? The point you're trying to tell me, that's Tofee killed living space-time but he isn't real one. How Toffee is supposed to kill not real space-time and be at same time able to destroy space-time because he killed not real one? I get a visual representation of his size manipulation and him getting inside of him
At 1:19 you can see that same hand of real one omnitraxus get "inside of himself" if it is himself, I don't see nothing here like avatar creation. The way of death are different, but the corpse is same, his death must still kill multiverse cause as you're assuming he's an multiverse, and it can't be negated by mixing of multiverses to one, only if omnitraxus would be a connection~frontier of the dimensions, then it would make sense more.

I never said otherwise? Dude, the spell is literally just a charged up blast that Skywynne did when dipping down. It's nothing special, and we know Star can dip down. That is why she even has a Butterfly form. It's not really just because of her high creativity; you're just diminishing the argument here. Again, it's a charged blast that they can do in their Butterfly forms. Not only that, Star reading Skywynne's chapter would mean she would know how to do this. The only argument you could even potentially make is that we don't see Star do it on screen, but it's honestly unnecessary if she has evidence suggesting that she can still do it. Okay, I'm going to ask a simple question... Why would Moon warn Star about the wand being able to do that at all if it's not something even someone of her skill caliber can do? You have to keep in mind that Moon has been using the Royal Magic Wand for approximately fifteen to twenty years of her life. At this point in the series as well, Star's potential isn't an established concept either. There would literally be no reason to make a statement such as that if it wasn't possible to do on accident (which is literally how Skywynne does it). Your arguments make no sense, and they find every excuse to try to disregard Tier 2.

And again, that was maximum which Skywynne could do while dipping down, Skywynne in dipped down form couldn't handle that. As much as most of star spells is usually just blasts of energy but with own names, even in butterfly form she can give names with spells. And again the spell she read is the spell to back the dimension which you explode not the spell to explode the dimension. It actually would make sense to not telling the explosion spell because of how this is dangerous as she mentions by herself, and as you noted by yourself. Simple question have an simple answer, because skill is not giving power, Star as much could destroy a universe or just cause problems without skill, because skill is not the factor of power level. It's like giving gun to a kid acknowledging how dangerous problems kid can cause even without a gun. See? You tell my point, skill isn't a factor of power.

How Skywynne destroyed the dimension is written in the book. That's literally where that description comes from, so your point about the label is incredibly moot. You're right about Eclipsa; I never really said anything about that was wrong. Wait, are you saying Eclipsa is the only person that she is the only person who can use it? If so, that's outright false. She states that it's her mom's spell, not hers. However, I don't think you'd be completely wrong in saying that not everyone can use it. The difference, as Giver said, is that Naruto and Kakashi aren't magic users that receive training from the same book and mentor. So yes, it's a false equivalence. Star and Eclipsa are consistently the strongest. Moon literally couldn't do anything to the Solarian Warriors while Star and Eclipsa could. Even in Season 3, Star at that time was arguably doing better against Meteora than Moon did because Star fought a Meteora with more souls to amp her. Then, she proceeded to blind her. There's literally so much evidence to suggest this in the series; I have no idea how you can disregard all of the implications and showings.

And description giving us the fact that spell is so strong not even she while dipped down can't handle that. Where did you find that I said that Eclipsa can only use own spells? Every magic user can use different spells and that's something we actually can't argue since we both know that, Star and Moon herself could use Eclipsa's spell for example. The thing is, even though Star and Eclipsa have same book and mentor their training aren't same, Glossaryck himself stated that Star required the other kind of training.
I wasn't talking about Moon-Star power difference but you can feel Star-Eclipsa difference. To suggest what? Star > Eclipsa or both > Skywynne in power?

You are unironically hurting your own arguments right now. That was something she did on her first time dipping down. It's not something she did with prolonged experience; it's something she did on her first try with a random blast that doesn't even have a name. I cannot even understand your scaling qualms at this point. They are completely unjustified if someone can do that on their first try and without a specific spell. At this point, I'd actually like you to give proof of some kind. The evidence is stacked against you, and you keep showing unwarranted skepticism.

Eclipsa without dipping down showed to be stronger than Star with dipping down. Skywynne without expirience could destroy a universe, Moon said to inexperienced Star of how dangerous responsibility is wand have. That's basic examples where experience ≠ power.

 

[Oleggator]

So your assumption is that because someone said "they couldn't hold on" equates "they couldn't handle it" like what? You realize what couldn't hold on means correct? It means that you can't wait any longer. The mewberty form comment literally further supports Star and co. scale.

How has it shown to be on par with Eclipsa? This is a baseless claim. Prove it.

No it is different, I explained why.

Ok replace universe with magic does not really change my point at all.

No offense but this question wasn't coherent at all, please ask it coherently.

And as I explained in my comment it was an awful example and a false equivalence. Because it's a nameless spell, it has no name, it's literally just a charged blast, what are you not getting about that? She could handle it, or else she wouldn't be able to do it and it's really not that hard, when she charged it up and did said blast.

About first point I'm actually apologizing because of not knowing every English expression.

Ok, first of all it's the fact that Star and Eclipsa have pretty much same count of abilities, list of spells which are exist in Svtfoe verse (https://starvstheforcesofevil.fandom.com/wiki/Spells), and most of them Star can use even some similar spells differently which shows her improvisation, and just comparing Star's and Eclipsa's spells in wand, pretty much shows that even considering Eclipsa having creativity with abilities Star have creativity with usage of spells so I pretty much can say she's on par.

Tbh, you just said they're different but you didn't gave a proofs, especially since you himself stated it goes on as long as your imagination goes, which wasn't nowhere stated and again contradicted by needing a source of energy. But I don't think this would lead us to something anymore, mainly better would get back to point.

Ok, I'll rephrase: I said that the fact that multiverse in Svtfoe is infinitely large didn't buffing or nerfing someone, basically it doesn't change something. You said that it's scalable...
Oh wait you meant a dimension feat, Ok I'm now basically debating about that with you 2.

If you want me to point it more directly, I'll say again, experience ≠ power. If you want more direct example let's use exactly the show. Skywynne, less expirienced than Star goes in mewbetry form and after unknown count of time, destroying dimension. Now first time star in mewbetry form, didn't much showed that level of destruction:
For coming points I'll say.
1. She looks pretty much fitting in Skywynne description of dipping down, so she could destroy a dimension here if she can do that.
2."She could holding, to not destroy the dimension". Probably, but in later series was shown she couldn't exactly control it when she was with glowing eyes, while with normal eyes it goes vice versa, she could control it, so I can't say is there was exactly control of power.
3. "She couldn't control it meaning we can't assume was she at max or at min." That's makes some sense, however due to Star's ± aggressive character especially when it comes in that situation we can assume she more likely pulled her max than her min. Especially because of the contrast of the moment and later star's falling.
Also most of spells have a names, again Star as example. If Skywynne really wanted to someone not repeating her experience, again would make sense to hide info about all circumstances. Would be stupid if you wanted someone didn't repeating the spell, but telling how to repeat it. It's still close to be more for others as potential not as actually "they're just can".

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

About first point I'm actually apologizing because of not knowing every English expression.

Ok, first of all it's the fact that Star and Eclipsa have pretty much same count of abilities, list of spells which are exist in Svtfoe verse (https://starvstheforcesofevil.fandom.com/wiki/Spells), and most of them Star can use even some similar spells differently which shows her improvisation, and just comparing Star's and Eclipsa's spells in wand, pretty much shows that even considering Eclipsa having creativity with abilities Star have creativity with usage of spells so I pretty much can say she's on par.

Tbh, you just said they're different but you didn't gave a proofs, especially since you himself stated it goes on as long as your imagination goes, which wasn't nowhere stated and again contradicted by needing a source of energy. But I don't think this would lead us to something anymore, mainly better would get back to point.

Ok, I'll rephrase: I said that the fact that multiverse in Svtfoe is infinitely large didn't buffing or nerfing someone, basically it doesn't change something. You said that it's scalable...
Oh wait you meant a dimension feat, Ok I'm now basically debating about that with you 2.

If you want me to point it more directly, I'll say again, experience ≠ power. If you want more direct example let's use exactly the show. Skywynne, less expirienced than Star goes in mewbetry form and after unknown count of time, destroying dimension. Now first time star in mewbetry form, didn't much showed that level of destruction:
For coming points I'll say.
1. She looks pretty much fitting in Skywynne description of dipping down, so she could destroy a dimension here if she can do that.
2."She could holding, to not destroy the dimension". Probably, but in later series was shown she couldn't exactly control it when she was with glowing eyes, while with normal eyes it goes vice versa, she could control it, so I can't say is there was exactly control of power.
3. "She couldn't control it meaning we can't assume was she at max or at min." That's makes some sense, however due to Star's ± aggressive character especially when it comes in that situation we can assume she more likely pulled her max than her min. Especially because of the contrast of the moment and later star's falling.
Also most of spells have a names, again Star as example. If Skywynne really wanted to someone not repeating her experience, again would make sense to hide info about all circumstances. Would be stupid if you wanted someone didn't repeating the spell, but telling how to repeat it. It's still close to be more for others as potential not as actually "they're just can".

Eclipsa and Star don't have the same count of abilities that's never shown in series, the most we see is a small supply of spells Eclipsa does and even then she uses some of her spells more creatively then Star does. She's not on par at all, Eclipsa's superior you're just making a random unsubstantiated interpretation.

I said they're different and gave proof* fixed it. Having a battery charger has nothing to do with how much magic it can dish out. Battery charger thing also feels semi retconned by S2 but that's off topic. Battery charger is to let it charge for whatever reason but the magic is still limitless in potential.

Yes I meant the dimension feat.

Except in this instance experience is what allows them to do spells better which is why experience is being used. You're missing the point. Also "unknown amount of time" is not a good argument, the way she describes the scene is at best a few minutes, unless you're telling me Skywene sat there charging up for a week for no reason this isn't a good argument. I already explained why it was a control of power and you even admitted and conceded to your notion of the phrase being wrong.

Star controls Golden Mewni at will after a couple of episodes of transforming into it by accident

You realize that most spells have a name hurts your point because nameless spells are seen as so casual they don't need to be named, correct? Also if Skywene didn't want anyone repeating her experience she would've not mentioned how she did it, so no I disagree with that completely. She never even said don't repeat it she just gave you insurance on how to fix/restore a destroyed dimension if you did indeed repeat it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Giver and Ploz are making the most sense here.

 

[Oleggator]

@DarkDragonMedeus I'll try more, since I feel we are becoming slowly but surely to finish.

Eclipsa and Star don't have the same count of abilities that's never shown in series, the most we see is a small supply of spells Eclipsa does and even then she uses some of her spells more creatively then Star does. She's not on par at all, Eclipsa's superior you're just making a random unsubstantiated interpretation.

I said they're different and gave proof* fixed it. Having a battery charger has nothing to do with how much magic it can dish out. Battery charger thing also feels semi retconned by S2 but that's off topic. Battery charger is to let it charge for whatever reason but the magic is still limitless in potential.

Yes I meant the dimension feat.

Except in this instance experience is what allows them to do spells better which is why experience is being used. You're missing the point. Also "unknown amount of time" is not a good argument, the way she describes the scene is at best a few minutes, unless you're telling me Skywene sat there charging up for a week for no reason this isn't a good argument. I already explained why it was a control of power and you even admitted and conceded to your notion of the phrase being wrong.

Star controls Golden Mewni at will after a couple of episodes of transforming into it by accident

You realize that most spells have a name hurts your point because nameless spells are seen as so casual they don't need to be named, correct? Also if Skywene didn't want anyone repeating her experience she would've not mentioned how she did it, so no I disagree with that completely. She never even said don't repeat it she just gave you insurance on how to fix/restore a destroyed dimension if you did indeed repeat it.

Eclipsa using more creative abilities, while Star using abilities more creatively. There's only much a difference in power.

Agree with off topic, however feels very weird, and gives a question of what it exactly charges then.

Ok.


However the circumstances is pretty much same, both dipped down for first time without prior knowledge of mewbetry form and in same circumstance, Skywynne showed/stated better result. And since again, Magic isn't only "attack". The thing is there's no direct statement of how long she was charging so it's really unknown, it's not a weeks but at same time can be an hours, the process is pretty much described to be long. Well you only said that the I misunderstood the phrase, but nothing about exact control of it, that's wasn't explained in book as well, but let's assume that she did.

An proof? Since again, you can feel the difference when she couldn't control it (episode where she was flying across multiverse while sleeping) and could control it (the meteora battle, Globgorg chase, etc.).

We have seen only one nameless spell, so I pretty much don't "realizing" it since named and nameless spells didn't had much timing difference, so no, incorrect. She must've at least to share the circumstance, and what to do if the circumstance is happening. But by your logic then she actually wanted someone to repeat her experience? I think it feels like smart step, to only say: "I destroyed dimension" which is shortly stated by her, and then writing a spell of what to do of that cause. Then wouldn't make sense to make an symbol of danger which was mentioned by Proz. So she's actually aware of spell usage.

 

[Galvino]

Skywynne wasn't in mewberty form when she destroyed the dimension. Yes she was dipping down, meaning she was glowing, but she didn't have the wings or weird eyes or anything like that. So you don't even need mewberty form to destroy a dimension.

 

[Oleggator]

But at same time Star reached mewbetry by dipping down. As I wrote earlier star still pretty much fitting with Skywynne description as be shine like a star. And the show made a contrast of reaching mewbetry form by dipping down aka soup metaphor.

 

[Galvino]

Having your cheeks glow and being in mewberty form are two different things. Just because you can glow, doesn't mean you can go into mewberty form. Mewberty makes you more powerful than if you were just glowing. The only exception is Eclipsia because she's shown and stated to be stronger than the other princesses, who can in fact go into mewberty form.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

@DarkDragonMedeus I'll try more, since I feel we are becoming slowly but surely to finish.

Eclipsa using more creative abilities, while Star using abilities more creatively. There's only much a difference in power.

Agree with off topic, however feels very weird, and gives a question of what it exactly charges then.

Ok.


However the circumstances is pretty much same, both dipped down for first time without prior knowledge of mewbetry form and in same circumstance, Skywynne showed/stated better result. And since again, Magic isn't only "attack". The thing is there's no direct statement of how long she was charging so it's really unknown, it's not a weeks but at same time can be an hours, the process is pretty much described to be long. Well you only said that the I misunderstood the phrase, but nothing about exact control of it, that's wasn't explained in book as well, but let's assume that she did.

An proof? Since again, you can feel the difference when she couldn't control it (episode where she was flying across multiverse while sleeping) and could control it (the meteora battle, Globgorg chase, etc.).

We have seen only one nameless spell, so I pretty much don't "realizing" it since named and nameless spells didn't had much timing difference, so no, incorrect. She must've at least to share the circumstance, and what to do if the circumstance is happening. But by your logic then she actually wanted someone to repeat her experience? I think it feels like smart step, to only say: "I destroyed dimension" which is shortly stated by her, and then writing a spell of what to do of that cause. Then wouldn't make sense to make an symbol of danger which was mentioned by Proz. So she's actually aware of spell usage.

So you just said two of the same thing. There's not a different in power, actually what's specifically mentioned about Eclipsa is that she's more skilled then Star, so if anything if you want to argue that you now concede to your previous premise of them being more skilled makes them unable to scale.

Except you're missing a huge issue in both issues. In Star's case she just wanted to destroy Toffe, in Skywene's case she wanted to blow up something huge, aka a universe. Context matters greatly. We don't need to assume that she did, nothing in the book at all implies she couldn't also yes you misunderstood the phrase and the phrase was important to your premise.

You realize that the episode where she was flying across the multiverse while sleeping is before she learned how to control it at will right?

No we haven't seen "one nameless spell" what? In your own spell link you gave there are 43 unnamed spells:

Spells

This page is a list of known magic spells used in the series, mostly by Star Butterfly. Most spells do not require an incantation and are activated simply by speaking the spells' names. All-Seeing Eye: "I summon the All-Seeing Eye to tear a hole into the sky. Reveal to me that which is hidden...

starvstheforcesofevil.fandom.com

You're missing the point yet again, if she shared the circumstance and explained how she did it, then they now know how to do it, mind you again, it's not some complex method she did, she literally just charged up her wand and shot an energy blast, I don't get what part you're missing of that then.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

But at same time Star reached mewbetry by dipping down. As I wrote earlier star still pretty much fitting with Skywynne description as be shine like a star. And the show made a contrast of reaching mewbetry form by dipping down aka soup metaphor.

Star could dip down without mewberty form:


So idk why her reaching Mewberty form via dipping down suddenly proves anything.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Which again, wasn't stated. If again, entire multiverse is inside of him, his death must cause the death of that multiverse, even though every dimension become a single one, his death still must've ended multiverse. Avatar assumption is wasn't shown somewhere in show and again contradictive to the fact that he's died. Like, define, he's shown only as avatar so that wouldn't make someone low 2C, because his avatar isn't space-time, or he actually come but he's not a space-time since he died. The ability was so incredibly blatant, that it's get called size manipulation which he's actually showed instead of Avatar.

What do you mean it "wasn't stated" here? He literally tells Star to get inside of his gut; Omnitraxus, thereafter, enters himself with a smaller version. It doesn't need to be shown every time he appears. It's pretty clear how the ability works from how we see him use it. I've already been over this reasoning with you. He's Tier 2 because he can also stop the multiverse from eating itself as well, not just because of being space-time. I've also already told you that his strength has shown to be transitive to his avatars too. The only "contradictions" are the ones you keep forcing: Omnitraxus dying to Toffee is only a contradiction if you assume it's his true form, Omnitraxus not sending more avatars is only a contradiction if you ignore the potency of Toffee's hax, and Omnitraxus not collapsing the multiverse is only a contradiction if you ignore the fact that Star and Marco merged it (which literally gets rid of his purpose). So no, you're just forcing contradictions through your weird interpretations of Omnitraxus and the situations surrounding him here. Also, Size Manipulation doesn't let you make smaller versions of yourself to enter your gut. That's just an argument that makes no sense.

Then he must've been always talking through an glass ball, if it comes to that. Ok, where are you get the info that Tofee did it in such degree that he couldn't make another one, or at least where was a hint that he was still alive during beginning of season 3 and that it was an avatar which died? The point you're trying to tell me, that's Tofee killed living space-time but he isn't real one. How Toffee is supposed to kill not real space-time and be at same time able to destroy space-time because he killed not real one? I get a visual representation of his size manipulation and him getting inside of him
At 1:19 you can see that same hand of real one omnitraxus get "inside of himself" if it is himself, I don't see nothing here like avatar creation. The way of death are different, but the corpse is same, his death must still kill multiverse cause as you're assuming he's an multiverse, and it can't be negated by mixing of multiverses to one, only if omnitraxus would be a connection~frontier of the dimensions, then it would make sense more.

Once again, you're misinterpreting the point. In some instances, he genuinely does need to send his avatars; he doesn't have to send them in others. The scenes would not change contextually with your idea, either. I'm not sure why you're pushing this. Toffee doing it to that level is a fair assumption, especially considering what he was doing to the magic. Again, they don't need to state that. It's common sense with how the Omnitraxus avatars function. Even in other franchises with avatars, they don't clarify something like, "Oh shit! Enerjak is gone! Well, it's actually just the avatar actually! The true form continues to linger on!" No, it's just that the avatar is gone, and that's it. The answer is simple to your Toffee question as well; he could likely do the same thing to the true form if it were actually there. You're overcomplicating the idea much more than it needs to be.

I'm not sure if that was intentional on your part, but you said a double negative that supports Omnitraxus having avatars. Otherwise, I genuinely can't do anything if you think making another version inside yourself is just Size Manipulation because that's not how the ability works. What about the corpse looking the same? We see a dead avatar at the MHC headquarters. The only reason I even agree that the true form died is that Omnitraxus' existence is reliant on magic. Star and Marco fusing the multiverse into one would solve the problem of it eating itself. Omnitraxus' purpose isn't to uphold the connection between dimensions; Hekapoo is supposed to do that. See, even your alternative suggestions are fundamentally wrong here. What about this is hard to accept?

And again, that was maximum which Skywynne could do while dipping down, Skywynne in dipped down form couldn't handle that. As much as most of star spells is usually just blasts of energy but with own names, even in butterfly form she can give names with spells. And again the spell she read is the spell to back the dimension which you explode not the spell to explode the dimension. It actually would make sense to not telling the explosion spell because of how this is dangerous as she mentions by herself, and as you noted by yourself. Simple question have an simple answer, because skill is not giving power, Star as much could destroy a universe or just cause problems without skill, because skill is not the factor of power level. It's like giving gun to a kid acknowledging how dangerous problems kid can cause even without a gun. See? You tell my point, skill isn't a factor of power.

She couldn't handle it because it was her first time. Please, stop ignoring the context of these things. Star naming her spells doesn't really change anything; I'm not sure why you decided to bring that up. Also, Star has performed non-descript energy blasts in her Butterfly Form as well. Not sure what your point was here? Why does the spell name even matter? Skywynne describes how she did it, and that's literally there is to it when you consider it's not even a special spell. It's something Skywynne did on her first try in her Butterfly Form; You have absolutely no reason as to why Star's Butterfly Form can't scale to this. The burden of proof is on you. I can't really tell what the rest of your point is because it has awkward wording. Never did I say skill automatically meant you had more power. I said that it's a randomly charged blast from a queen trying it on her first time; the fact there is nothing special about it should mean Star should absolutely scale because it's a matter of the power behind their Butterfly Forms. They might need the skill to restore the dimension, but the act of destruction is unrelated to their skill.

And description giving us the fact that spell is so strong not even she while dipped down can't handle that. Where did you find that I said that Eclipsa can only use own spells? Every magic user can use different spells and that's something we actually can't argue since we both know that, Star and Moon herself could use Eclipsa's spell for example. The thing is, even though Star and Eclipsa have same book and mentor their training aren't same, Glossaryck himself stated that Star required the other kind of training.
I wasn't talking about Moon-Star power difference but you can feel Star-Eclipsa difference. To suggest what? Star > Eclipsa or both > Skywynne in power?

I've already covered the context of why the blast was so strong. You said, "However, Eclipsa also would have only potential to it." Unless you misworded your point, you were saying the Total Annihilation Spell was something only she could use. I debunked it by showing that Solaria is the one who even invented it. Their training gets them to the same endpoint and has the same goals. When Moon was complaining about how Glossaryck trained Star differently, it was a matter of what catered best to them. So if anything, Star is still above these people. They also received training that was specifically catered to them, but her potential was far above the others (aside from Eclipsa). Both would upscale from Skywynne because of feats within the series and Baby's statement. Their potential is completely transitive to their power; you can see that when you compare someone like Eclipsa to Moon.

Eclipsa without dipping down showed to be stronger than Star with dipping down. Skywynne without expirience could destroy a universe, Moon said to inexperienced Star of how dangerous responsibility is wand have. That's basic examples where experience ≠ power.

One at a time:

• Eclipsa has far more experience spell-casting than Star does. Her potential was relative to Star's at her age, and she's had more years of training and finesse beyond that. This doesn't prove your point.
• Dipping down would just let them do that naturally. This doesn't really serve your point either since this is a matter of transformation amplifications.
• I don't see how that proves your point. That just demonstrates how Moon would upscale.

Also, I never said experience = power either. You keep misrepresenting my points. I said that their magical potential is what's correlative to their strength, stop strawmanning my arguments.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Giver and Ploz makes sense here

 

[Oleggator]

Having your cheeks glow and being in mewberty form are two different things. Just because you can glow, doesn't mean you can go into mewberty form. Mewberty makes you more powerful than if you were just glowing. The only exception is Eclipsia because she's shown and stated to be stronger than the other princesses, who can in fact go into mewberty form.

Eclipsa was stated to be the best wise by most of here. But not the best in power, again, her mother's magic at least shown to be very strong, so strong that Eclipsa couldn't repeat that spell after first usage. And as Skywynne stated she was glowing and glowing brighter and brighter. Even if we would claim that she did it without mewbetry form that hurts the point of being her actually low 2C more, since again, Star without control of her form never showed to be close to the universe level of destruction.

So you just said two of the same thing. There's not a different in power, actually what's specifically mentioned about Eclipsa is that she's more skilled then Star, so if anything if you want to argue that you now concede to your previous premise of them being more skilled makes them unable to scale.

Except you're missing a huge issue in both issues. In Star's case she just wanted to destroy Toffe, in Skywene's case she wanted to blow up something huge, aka a universe. Context matters greatly. We don't need to assume that she did, nothing in the book at all implies she couldn't also yes you misunderstood the phrase and the phrase was important to your premise.

You realize that the episode where she was flying across the multiverse while sleeping is before she learned how to control it at will right?

No we haven't seen "one nameless spell" what? In your own spell link you gave there are 43 unnamed spells:

Spells

This page is a list of known magic spells used in the series, mostly by Star Butterfly. Most spells do not require an incantation and are activated simply by speaking the spells' names. All-Seeing Eye: "I summon the All-Seeing Eye to tear a hole into the sky. Reveal to me that which is hidden...

starvstheforcesofevil.fandom.com

You're missing the point yet again, if she shared the circumstance and explained how she did it, then they now know how to do it, mind you again, it's not some complex method she did, she literally just charged up her wand and shot an energy blast, I don't get what part you're missing of that then.

What? I mean, what? I told there's no difference in creativity which you highly was arguing, what's that a change of arguments? How's that supposed to turn my arguments against me? More details please.

Again, Star couldn't control herself this happened far before she learned the control of her form. And Skywynne by wanting destroying a planet destroyed a universe, so uncontrolled star by wanting to destroy Tofee could show high levels of AP.

As much as episode with first use of mewbetry form was far before she controlled it, I used this to a point of her not controlling this form at a moment of episode which happened also before she was flying across multiverse.

Good point out, still not denying the fact that most of easy spells have similar timing.


That's would be technically out of her character. Cause in other page she wrote, she actually gives a description, of how to exactly do the revert spell but doesn't giving total instructions of how to do the spell (gravity spell), if you think she gave an instruction of how to destroy dimension in page called "what to do if you destroyed dimension", that wouldn't make sense. Would be more logical to hide the part of information just like she did in gravity spell description.

Star could dip down without mewberty form:


So idk why her reaching Mewberty form via dipping down suddenly proves anything.

Then it hurts your and Galvino point more, since uncontrolled Skywynne in weaker form destroyed dimension, while uncontrolled stronger form of star never actually destroyed any dimensions.

 

[Oleggator]

What do you mean it "wasn't stated" here? He literally tells Star to get inside of his gut; Omnitraxus, thereafter, enters himself with a smaller version. It doesn't need to be shown every time he appears. It's pretty clear how the ability works from how we see him use it. I've already been over this reasoning with you. He's Tier 2 because he can also stop the multiverse from eating itself as well, not just because of being space-time. I've also already told you that his strength has shown to be transitive to his avatars too. The only "contradictions" are the ones you keep forcing: Omnitraxus dying to Toffee is only a contradiction if you assume it's his true form, Omnitraxus not sending more avatars is only a contradiction if you ignore the potency of Toffee's hax, and Omnitraxus not collapsing the multiverse is only a contradiction if you ignore the fact that Star and Marco merged it (which literally gets rid of his purpose). So no, you're just forcing contradictions through your weird interpretations of Omnitraxus and the situations surrounding him here. Also, Size Manipulation doesn't let you make smaller versions of yourself to enter your gut. That's just an argument that makes no sense.

Once again, you're misinterpreting the point. In some instances, he genuinely does need to send his avatars; he doesn't have to send them in others. The scenes would not change contextually with your idea, either. I'm not sure why you're pushing this. Toffee doing it to that level is a fair assumption, especially considering what he was doing to the magic. Again, they don't need to state that. It's common sense with how the Omnitraxus avatars function. Even in other franchises with avatars, they don't clarify something like, "Oh shit! Enerjak is gone! Well, it's actually just the avatar actually! The true form continues to linger on!" No, it's just that the avatar is gone, and that's it. The answer is simple to your Toffee question as well; he could likely do the same thing to the true form if it were actually there. You're overcomplicating the idea much more than it needs to be.

I'm not sure if that was intentional on your part, but you said a double negative that supports Omnitraxus having avatars. Otherwise, I genuinely can't do anything if you think making another version inside yourself is just Size Manipulation because that's not how the ability works. What about the corpse looking the same? We see a dead avatar at the MHC headquarters. The only reason I even agree that the true form died is that Omnitraxus' existence is reliant on magic. Star and Marco fusing the multiverse into one would solve the problem of it eating itself. Omnitraxus' purpose isn't to uphold the connection between dimensions; Hekapoo is supposed to do that. See, even your alternative suggestions are fundamentally wrong here. What about this is hard to accept?

She couldn't handle it because it was her first time. Please, stop ignoring the context of these things. Star naming her spells doesn't really change anything; I'm not sure why you decided to bring that up. Also, Star has performed non-descript energy blasts in her Butterfly Form as well. Not sure what your point was here? Why does the spell name even matter? Skywynne describes how she did it, and that's literally there is to it when you consider it's not even a special spell. It's something Skywynne did on her first try in her Butterfly Form; You have absolutely no reason as to why Star's Butterfly Form can't scale to this. The burden of proof is on you. I can't really tell what the rest of your point is because it has awkward wording. Never did I say skill automatically meant you had more power. I said that it's a randomly charged blast from a queen trying it on her first time; the fact there is nothing special about it should mean Star should absolutely scale because it's a matter of the power behind their Butterfly Forms. They might need the skill to restore the dimension, but the act of destruction is unrelated to their skill.

I've already covered the context of why the blast was so strong. You said, "However, Eclipsa also would have only potential to it." Unless you misworded your point, you were saying the Total Annihilation Spell was something only she could use. I debunked it by showing that Solaria is the one who even invented it. Their training gets them to the same endpoint and has the same goals. When Moon was complaining about how Glossaryck trained Star differently, it was a matter of what catered best to them. So if anything, Star is still above these people. They also received training that was specifically catered to them, but her potential was far above the others (aside from Eclipsa). Both would upscale from Skywynne because of feats within the series and Baby's statement. Their potential is completely transitive to their power; you can see that when you compare someone like Eclipsa to Moon.

One at a time:

• Eclipsa has far more experience spell-casting than Star does. Her potential was relative to Star's at her age, and she's had more years of training and finesse beyond that. This doesn't prove your point.
• Dipping down would just let them do that naturally. This doesn't really serve your point either since this is a matter of transformation amplifications.
• I don't see how that proves your point. That just demonstrates how Moon would upscale.

Also, I never said experience = power either. You keep misrepresenting my points. I said that their magical potential is what's correlative to their strength, stop strawmanning my arguments.

Can you show please a feat or statement of stopping multiverse from eating? At least wiki itself doesn't showing that. Again, when Star "enters his gut" she enters with his hand which later when omnitraxus enters we see he enters with exactly same hand. It's not clear, I'm bet you watched that scenes many times to come for assumption to say this is exactly avatar creation. But ok, let's assume it's his gut, then why he's still having omnipresence within his universe and Galactic lifting strength if inside of his Body not a galaxy. Where was stated or shown that the avatars are comparable to real one? Or I'll say just shown since avatar creation based on one scene where we can't even say at all this is avatar creation. You can't just say it's common sense since basically both avatar and not avatar are featless, so I don't understand your assumption. Which potency of hax, how merging of multiverse stopping from his destruction? If his death is reason why multiverses merged in one universe then it's proofs that he's exactly a borders of universes. And basically he didn't died because multiverse merged together since it's not killing space-time. Size manipulation is basically a reason why he can enter other universes. There wasn't stated something like with Darkseid "when his true form will enter universe, universe will die". Omnitraxus have 0 reasons to not enter other universes.

He doesn't actually needed an avatar in scenes where "they are", he could use something like in lie detector scene. A portal creation which he exactly showed unlike with avatar creation. So you're saying that he feared of Tofee, and instead of stopping his actions which could make him dead, just waiting for his death? Also again, then how the hand of real omnitraxus instantly becoming the hand of avatar of omnitraxus?

I see that Heekapoo is created for connection, for "roads" across the universes, I don't see why it's denying omnitraxus being "borders". And before you say that I previously said he's "connection~frontier" I wanted to give it more understandable context. But better to represent it's just as border.
I actually have reasons for Star's dipping up form ≠ Skywynne dipping up. The argument is simple is that star didn't showed anything close to be as same strong as Skywynne. Just compare first time Skywynne dipped down to first time Star dipped down from. That's maybe would be a single fact but it doesn't mean we must ignore this fact. The thing you gave now for Star and others is potential, possibility but not just low 2C. The act of destruction is reliable on power difference.

Since when I'm stated that she's only one who can use Totally annihilation spell? I'm guessing you misunderstood my point or I'm miswrote my point. Both would power wise, down scale to Skywynne since feats in show doesn't showed something close to Skywynne and Baby's statement is statement of skill, not power as you stated.

• As you stated skill ≠ power, but Eclipsa basically just overpowered Meteora by using actually skill reliable spell in last attack, Meteora overpowered Star, by pure power.
• Nowhere is stated that if you'll reach mewbetry form you'll casually destroy universes. And nowhere is stated that dipping down would let you use full potential, especially since Meteora battle.
• My point is there's power difference between queens. Basically every queen good at something personal, which also had several contexts.

Everything proofs that they're possibly/potentially can destroy universe not actually they're capable of it(also what's strawmanning? Edit: I figured out by google).