Svtfoe downgrade.

[Oleggator]

Also my big apologize for not replying very long. Was a bit busy.

 

[Galvino]

Eclipsa was stated to be the best wise by most of here. But not the best in power, again, her mother's magic at least shown to be very strong, so strong that Eclipsa couldn't repeat that spell after first usage

First usage doesn't matter, I don't believe anyone is saying Eclipsa was the best since day one, we're just saying she's the best (at least) as of the events of the series.

Even if we would claim that she did it without mewbetry form that hurts the point of being her actually low 2C more, since again, Star without control of her form never showed to be close to the universe level of destruction.

Not sure how we could claim otherwise since it's straight up shown to us, Sky not being in mewberty when did the feat isn't contentious at all. Nobody in the series actually wanted to destroy the universe that they themselves lived on, that would be nonsensical. Just because they have the power, doesn't mean they have to or want to, it's not that complicated to understand. Also, kinda strawmanning me, I didn't claim low 2-C. If you destroyed a universe, you would just be 3-A or high 3-A. All I'm saying personally is that princesses are, without a doubt, at least 3-A.

 

[Oleggator]

First usage doesn't matter, I don't believe anyone is saying Eclipsa was the best since day one, we're just saying she's the best (at least) as of the events of the series.

Not sure how we could claim otherwise since it's straight up shown to us, Sky not being in mewberty when did the feat isn't contentious at all. Nobody in the series actually wanted to destroy the universe that they themselves lived on, that would be nonsensical. Just because they have the power, doesn't mean they have to or want to, it's not that complicated to understand. Also, kinda strawmanning me, I didn't claim low 2-C. If you destroyed a universe, you would just be 3-A or high 3-A. All I'm saying personally is that princesses are, without a doubt, at least 3-A.

Eclipsa is the best by skill like everyone states, so to do existence erasure mustn't be problematic to think about it and if looking in another spells.

As much as nobody wanted, I already said previously first time usage of Star Mewbetry form could be maybe not low 2C or 3A, but definitely it could be higher than 8B or 7C which the best feats shown. I'm not stating they're can't destroy universe. But at same time we can't be sure at all, that's my main point which causes no matter low 2C it or High 3A feat actually is. I didn't understand where you've seen strawmanning.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Eclipsa was stated to be the best wise by most of here. But not the best in power, again, her mother's magic at least shown to be very strong, so strong that Eclipsa couldn't repeat that spell after first usage. And as Skywynne stated she was glowing and glowing brighter and brighter. Even if we would claim that she did it without mewbetry form that hurts the point of being her actually low 2C more, since again, Star without control of her form never showed to be close to the universe level of destruction.

What? I mean, what? I told there's no difference in creativity which you highly was arguing, what's that a change of arguments? How's that supposed to turn my arguments against me? More details please.

Again, Star couldn't control herself this happened far before she learned the control of her form. And Skywynne by wanting destroying a planet destroyed a universe, so uncontrolled star by wanting to destroy Tofee could show high levels of AP.

As much as episode with first use of mewbetry form was far before she controlled it, I used this to a point of her not controlling this form at a moment of episode which happened also before she was flying across multiverse.

Good point out, still not denying the fact that most of easy spells have similar timing.


That's would be technically out of her character. Cause in other page she wrote, she actually gives a description, of how to exactly do the revert spell but doesn't giving total instructions of how to do the spell (gravity spell), if you think she gave an instruction of how to destroy dimension in page called "what to do if you destroyed dimension", that wouldn't make sense. Would be more logical to hide the part of information just like she did in gravity spell description.


Then it hurts your and Galvino point more, since uncontrolled Skywynne in weaker form destroyed dimension, while uncontrolled stronger form of star never actually destroyed any dimensions.

This is just repeating the arguments I refuted, but sure I guess I'll refute this again. She is the best in power, her fight against Meteora shows that, Star's strongest attack barely staggered Meteora while Eclipsa casually waving the wand was pushing her back. "Star without control of her form never showed to be close to the universe level of destruction" is a terrible argument as she'd have no reason to be, Star's a hero that's trying to save the world she'd have no reason to try to destroy the universe, Skywnne is a ******** who destroys shit whenever she gets into an argument with her boyfriend.

How about re-read what my refute was to instead of reaching this out of nowhere conclusion I was responding to your point where you attempted to argue the difference in power point, I already refuted your creativity point several times now and have asked you to show me proof and you've yet to fufill your burden of proof. Do it. "How's that supposed to turn my arguments" excuse me what, one of your core premises is that we cannot scale the Queens above each other via skill, yet you admit that Eclipsa is more powerful then Star and the entire reason is via skill. You're own argument contradicts one of your core premises and you don't even realize this somehow.

She could actually control herself during that movie, I'm going to assume you didn't watch it or didn't watch the times she couldn't control her powers afterwards cause when she went Golden Mewberty during the Toffee movie she was capable of speaking to her mom a major thing with Star when she can't control her powers afterwards is that she can't speak at all cause she's not consciously there during her mewberty form. What this is a case of when a character first awakens the power they're able to control it well and then afterwards they need to learn how to sufficiently control it, this is dumb common in fiction. Your argument of "Star wasn't in a controlled form so should've destroyed the universe" is also very bad, Star's only want was to destroy Toffee so she focused her blast on Toffee, not to destroy the universe. Skywynne's specific thing was that she wanted to destroy something big. She even repeats the fact that she wanted to do that.

I explained why she could control it in her first outing, her flying across the multiverse was done unconciously because Mewberty form was being called by the horse she created that restored magic itself to come to the realm of magic which is outside the multiverse. So there'd be no reason for Mewberty form to want to destroy the multiverse since it's looking for something.

Ok and? I don't see why easy spells having similar timing means anything if anything that hurts your point because this is viewed as an easy spell that just requires charge up. I don't think Skywynne even describes that she was fatigued after doing that.

Her giving a description is irrelevant, I have repeatedly explained to you now that she literally explains how she destroy the universe in the scan. A charged energy blast. It is not that difficult. It's not what I think, it's what's objectively written their.

That doesn't hurt my point at all, Star has no reason to destroy a dimension and I explained above why she wouldn't and why Skywynne would.

This argument was literally just repetition.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Eclipsa is the best by skill like everyone states, so to do existence erasure mustn't be problematic to think about it and if looking in another spells.

As much as nobody wanted, I already said previously first time usage of Star Mewbetry form could be maybe not low 2C or 3A, but definitely it could be higher than 8B or 7C which the best feats shown. I'm not stating they're can't destroy universe. But at same time we can't be sure at all, that's my main point which causes no matter low 2C it or High 3A feat actually is. I didn't understand where you've seen strawmanning.

You need to word that faaaar better I have no clue what you're attempting to say here.

And I completely refuted this ludicrous claim. No we can be sure, I showed you proof you just want far more then we are obligated to give and that's not our problem. I've seen strawmanning and I literally called it out in my reply.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Can you show please a feat or statement of stopping multiverse from eating? At least wiki itself doesn't showing that. Again, when Star "enters his gut" she enters with his hand which later when omnitraxus enters we see he enters with exactly same hand. It's not clear, I'm bet you watched that scenes many times to come for assumption to say this is exactly avatar creation. But ok, let's assume it's his gut, then why he's still having omnipresence within his universe and Galactic lifting strength if inside of his Body not a galaxy. Where was stated or shown that the avatars are comparable to real one? Or I'll say just shown since avatar creation based on one scene where we can't even say at all this is avatar creation. You can't just say it's common sense since basically both avatar and not avatar are featless, so I don't understand your assumption. Which potency of hax, how merging of multiverse stopping from his destruction? If his death is reason why multiverses merged in one universe then it's proofs that he's exactly a borders of universes. And basically he didn't died because multiverse merged together since it's not killing space-time. Size manipulation is basically a reason why he can enter other universes. There wasn't stated something like with Darkseid "when his true form will enter universe, universe will die". Omnitraxus have 0 reasons to not enter other universes.

The wiki doesn't note every single detail; it's in Star and Marco's book. I really didn't have to watch the scene multiple times to come to that conclusion. I've only had to keep rewatching it because it keeps getting misinterpreted. You get Omnipresence by default if you are a universe/pocket dimension; Omni having Galactic Lifting seems fine: he has moons, planets, stars, and a distant galactic disk (it looks like it is) in the background. His avatars have shown to have pretty much the same strength as portal attacks from his true form. Okay, you do realize that even if I agreed they were both featless, that it wouldn't alter the fact he has the ability? You can't make one thing transitive to another if it makes no sense to link the two. Also, I'm not sure what your fixation on it only appearing once is. We don't see Omnitraxus in the Plains of Time in any other episode, so it's the most accurate representation we have of him. Omnitraxus wouldn't be featless in either instance: his true form embodies space-time (universal degree minimum), his true form stops the multiverse from eating itself, his avatar was able to slam around Globgor, his avatar participated in the Monster and Mewman wars, etc. Omni dying is not what caused the multiverse to merge into one; Star and Marco performing a spell together did that. You're conclusion that he maintains the borders is incorrect because it relies on a false premise. I'm saying Star and Marco stopped the effects by merging it all. Size Manipulation doesn't allow you to make another version of yourself that is smaller and enter your gut. He wouldn't enter them because of his sheer size; that's self-explanatory.

He doesn't actually needed an avatar in scenes where "they are", he could use something like in lie detector scene. A portal creation which he exactly showed unlike with avatar creation. So you're saying that he feared of Tofee, and instead of stopping his actions which could make him dead, just waiting for his death? Also again, then how the hand of real omnitraxus instantly becoming the hand of avatar of omnitraxus?

I didn't say they were mandatory; I said they were scenes that worked in tandem with this idea. What relevance does the Portal Creation have? I've already been over how he's shown Avatar Creation. You're unnecessarily demanding more evidence for something so blatant. You're strawmanning my argument too; there you go again. I said Toffee's potency affected him to that level (a level where his avatars couldn't interact with them anymore). I didn't say that Toffee made him so afraid that he didn't make a new avatar. Also, it's like that because it's a visual cue that it's still Omnitraxus (but in the form of an avatar).

I see that Heekapoo is created for connection, for "roads" across the universes, I don't see why it's denying omnitraxus being "borders". And before you say that I previously said he's "connection~frontier" I wanted to give it more understandable context. But better to represent it's just as border.
I actually have reasons for Star's dipping up form ≠ Skywynne dipping up. The argument is simple is that star didn't showed anything close to be as same strong as Skywynne. Just compare first time Skywynne dipped down to first time Star dipped down from. That's maybe would be a single fact but it doesn't mean we must ignore this fact. The thing you gave now for Star and others is potential, possibility but not just low 2C. The act of destruction is reliable on power difference.

Again, that would still not be Omnitraxus' purpose. The borders are already naturally set up; I sent the Hekapoo scan to show that and to illustrate how she connects them. None of what you're describing has ever been stated to fit Omnitraxus.

I address the argument that Star didn't show that level of destruction below. Skywynne's blast was a concentrated one with the intent of destroying a dimension; Star had no intent to do so as she only wanted to kill Toffee. That's an invalid argument because you're comparing characters with two completely different mindsets. It's literally just a non-descript focused blast that Skywynne does when dipping down on her first time. There is no reason for Star to not scale to this.

Since when I'm stated that she's only one who can use Totally annihilation spell? I'm guessing you misunderstood my point or I'm miswrote my point. Both would power wise, down scale to Skywynne since feats in show doesn't showed something close to Skywynne and Baby's statement is statement of skill, not power as you stated.

I'm pretty sure you miswrote your point. How would they downscale from someone they've shown the feats to tower over? They don't show that in the show because Star has no reason to go around destroying universes. She's not a dick like Skywynne, who destroyed a dimension just because she was mad at her boyfriend. Once again, I never said Baby's statement was related only to power. I said it was regarding Star's magic potential (which encapsulates both).

• As you stated skill ≠ power, but Eclipsa basically just overpowered Meteora by using actually skill reliable spell in last attack, Meteora overpowered Star, by pure power.
• Nowhere is stated that if you'll reach mewbetry form you'll casually destroy universes. And nowhere is stated that dipping down would let you use full potential, especially since Meteora battle.
• My point is there's power difference between queens. Basically every queen good at something personal, which also had several contexts.

• Eclipsa's spells were more powerful than Star's. I'm not sure how you came to any conclusion otherwise. Star took out her Butterfly Form's power, but she only briefly stopped Meteora. Eclipsa's Black Velvet Inferno completely decimated Meteora. I never said skill was transitive to power either; that was you misinterpreting what I said.
• Okay, why would that need to be stated? It's context clues and basic ******* logic. It's like literally having a Rubik's Cube one switch away from being complete and somehow thinking it's still very jumbled. This is your mindset right now. Okay, even if we used this argument that dipping down doesn't let them do that, they'd still be using the same source of power, the Butterfly Forms. It would be transitive in that way.
• Queens being good at certain things =/= making a random energy blast while dipping, on the first time, down exclusive to someone.

Everything proofs that they're possibly/potentially can destroy universe not actually they're capable of it(also what's strawmanning? Edit: I figured out by google).

Everything points to them just flat-out scaling. The only "issues" are continually misinterpreted points and strawmanning arguments.

 

[Galvino]

As much as nobody wanted, I already said previously first time usage of Star Mewbetry form could be maybe not low 2C or 3A, but definitely it could be higher than 8B or 7C which the best feats shown.

Judging a character's power by just what is on screen and ignoring every other source of evidence is just not being honest with yourself, it's not getting you anywhere.

I didn't understand where you've seen strawmanning.

Even if we would claim that she did it without mewbetry form that hurts the point of being her actually low 2C more, since again, Star without control of her form never showed to be close to the universe level of destruction.

You were claiming that Sky blowing up a universe without mewberty hurts the point of actually being low 2-C when I never claimed anything having to do with low 2-C. While you didn't say it was my point, you're still replying to me as if it's relevant to my point of princesses being at least 3-A.

 

[Galvino]

As someone said in the old thread, Dargoo isn't here to apply the changes he wanted. So unless some other mod wants to step in with their own thoughts, the points and changes Ploz, Giver, and I discussed should be applied to the verse.

 

[Oleggator]

I'm could still debate sometime, but unless people are not against of debate(big sorry for not being very long here).

 

[Galvino]

I'm could still debate sometime, but unless people are not against of debate(big sorry for not being very long here).

What's your discord?

 

[Oleggator]

Don't usually visiting discord, and prefer if making debates on it, then slowly 1v1, for more detail understanding of points. Although, oleggator7395#1054

 

[Galvino]

On the older thread, Ant and the rest of us already agreed with most of our points and decided to go with them.

 

[Oleggator]

On the older thread, Ant and the rest of us already agreed with most of our points and decided to go with them.

Well, I wasn't mainly prepared to be objectively right, but more like to understand some stuff.
But a few questions: Can I see the discussion?
At least uni durability is making me feel weird. Like Star could block Meteora's attacks, while Meteora is uni for fighting Moon, but at same time up here was a statements of people, that they're didn't showing uni because of holding, or if rephrasing because they're know it's highly responsible to destroy a universe, why then Meteora should be uni and Star have uni dura if it's from battle of character who was holding at the moment?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I already discussed how I don't agree with uni durability but this really isn't the thread for that

 

[Oleggator]

Ok, but still thanks for cooperation.