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Plus you can't just remove the Self destruct as its a official feat. It was only stopped when Amara healed God.
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Supernatural
- Thread starter Heatforce
- Start date
- Status
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If the opponent kills him then he does survive because battles take place in a neutral universe.
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His attack potency should be upgraded as SCP-682 is potentially Universal in AP and 2-C due to his death feat, and people do also consider his death.
In 682 battles everyone says that the opponent wins if they kill and survive his death. I don't see why God or Amara's death shouldn't count as AP.
If his Existential fading death doesn't count why does it work for 682. Sure Supernatural has inconsistencies but this is the most powerful feat yet and you are trying to dismiss it.
In 682 battles everyone says that the opponent wins if they kill and survive his death. I don't see why God or Amara's death shouldn't count as AP.
If his Existential fading death doesn't count why does it work for 682. Sure Supernatural has inconsistencies but this is the most powerful feat yet and you are trying to dismiss it.
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Um....what about 682 now? Isnt this a Supernatural thread?
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As i said above i have no idea about SCP-682 and personally i don't believe that ones death should count as AP unless they explode or something.
Their actual AP is what they can do one their own and they have shown nothing.
Their actual AP is what they can do one their own and they have shown nothing.
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i dont think that hyperbole fits that statement,Kkapoios said:
we already saw that castiel got a lot of energy by only touching a slight bit of bobbys soul, and he became basically equal or greater than archangels by absorbing billions and more souls from purgotory, to boot, deans/sams grandfather was able to travel through time via a spell that directly used energy from the soul...
all in all, it sounds pretty legit, but that doesnt mean souls=100 suns AP, it simply means that they create that much energy (basically like: a nuclear power plant =/= nuke but still producing a similar lvl of energy), at least this is how i saw it ^_^
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Traveling in time is unquantifiable.
Castiel needed 50 thousand souls just to hurt Raphael who is Country level via statements for the Archangels while his feats only put him at Large Town to Mountain level.
Nuclear power plants produce smaller amounts of energy that nuclear weapons.(i think a nuclear power plant has to work at full power to produce the same energy as a small nuke, but they don't fanction at full power more that an hour)
A lot of energy =/= 100 suns.The sun produces 3.97e26 Joules per second ,50000 souls would be 1.9e31 Joules (Small Planet level)
If we take this statement as true we would have to upgrade one of the weakest Archangels to being hundreds of times stronger than the best feat the verse has.So yeah it is a hyperbole.
Castiel needed 50 thousand souls just to hurt Raphael who is Country level via statements for the Archangels while his feats only put him at Large Town to Mountain level.
Nuclear power plants produce smaller amounts of energy that nuclear weapons.(i think a nuclear power plant has to work at full power to produce the same energy as a small nuke, but they don't fanction at full power more that an hour)
A lot of energy =/= 100 suns.The sun produces 3.97e26 Joules per second ,50000 souls would be 1.9e31 Joules (Small Planet level)
If we take this statement as true we would have to upgrade one of the weakest Archangels to being hundreds of times stronger than the best feat the verse has.So yeah it is a hyperbole.
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Actually i did a mistake ,50000 souls would be 1.985e33 Joules (Planet level)
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I am sorry, but I don't believe that all of this Sun / Stars thing can be written off as Hyperbole. The episode mentions the Sun ceasing to exist, stars and Supernovas multiple times to just be handwaved away.
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@Kkapoios
i watched the episode, and they clearly didnt say it in a way that sounds like a hyperbole, and it will still not change a normal humans powerlvl, the soul only gets dangerous if it explodes and that isnt something natural,
god himself stated that a super nova of 10 million suns is needed in order to kill the darkness,
the reaper gave them a few hundred thousand souls (assuming she meant 2 or 3 hundred thousand, the result will easily reach 10 million or higher), and the witch said that it is easily enough, so, yeah, a soul = 100 suns is clearly not a hyperbole :/
PS: there is a big difference in "the outright explosion and destruction of a soul" and "using it for different purposes", we cant take it as a linear measurement for power-output calculation (basically like the usage of a nuclear power plant for electric purposes producing different "energy-lvls" than the expplosion of said nuclear plant),
therefore the statement can be true but not useful for us to measure the APs of various chars ^_^
i watched the episode, and they clearly didnt say it in a way that sounds like a hyperbole, and it will still not change a normal humans powerlvl, the soul only gets dangerous if it explodes and that isnt something natural,
god himself stated that a super nova of 10 million suns is needed in order to kill the darkness,
the reaper gave them a few hundred thousand souls (assuming she meant 2 or 3 hundred thousand, the result will easily reach 10 million or higher), and the witch said that it is easily enough, so, yeah, a soul = 100 suns is clearly not a hyperbole :/
PS: there is a big difference in "the outright explosion and destruction of a soul" and "using it for different purposes", we cant take it as a linear measurement for power-output calculation (basically like the usage of a nuclear power plant for electric purposes producing different "energy-lvls" than the expplosion of said nuclear plant),
therefore the statement can be true but not useful for us to measure the APs of various chars ^_^
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Correction: Castiel needed 50 million souls
Also I used SCP-682 as it's a pefect example of someone being universal in attack potency with their death.
If it counts for him then it should certainly count for God/Amara as well.
Just because you think someone's death shouldn't count doesn't mean it doesn't count as it was shown *Sun fading away* and Amara's statement. Amara would know as she has Cosmic Awareness
Therefore it's an actual feat of Existence (Supernatural Multiverse) fading away.
In battles if one manages to kill God or Amara they would need to survive his death as well.
If Deaths don't count then someone nerf 682's statistics from Possibly Universal via death to what ever his stats used to be.
Also I used SCP-682 as it's a pefect example of someone being universal in attack potency with their death.
If it counts for him then it should certainly count for God/Amara as well.
Just because you think someone's death shouldn't count doesn't mean it doesn't count as it was shown *Sun fading away* and Amara's statement. Amara would know as she has Cosmic Awareness
Therefore it's an actual feat of Existence (Supernatural Multiverse) fading away.
In battles if one manages to kill God or Amara they would need to survive his death as well.
If Deaths don't count then someone nerf 682's statistics from Possibly Universal via death to what ever his stats used to be.
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Deaths, as far as I know it, count as Attack Potency. SCP-682 is a pefect example of this and is why I am using him. I'm also pretty sure that if Starbrand had a page, they would also add his self destruction as a feat. (He exploded himself to kill a Beyonder in Secret wars)/
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Also with Castiel's 50 million souls thing, he didn't just harm him but he killed him just by snapping his fingers. But Death said that 50 million souls wasn't enough to match God in power and I think that's logical as he created souls and could just create an unknown amount of them.
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Castiel with 50 million souls obviously was only using a very small amount of the power of those souls at any given time, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to maintain his power for eons as he planned to do.
This soul-bomb, on the other hand, while made from only a few hundred thousand souls, would release ALL OF THE ENERGY in a single blast in an instant, right? Seems very different to me.
Sometimes character statements are meant to show us information about tiering, and in this case it's pretty obvious that God himself (the be-all-and-end-all authority on knowledge of that verse) was giving a definitive statement of Amara's tier: That it'd take millions of supernovas to kill her. Which puts him and Amara somewhere around Very High Tier 4-A, if I'm not mistaken, if not low 3-C. Which may seem ridiculous until you consider that God WAS stated to have created the entire universe, containing billions of galaxies (albeit it took him a long time). And the bottom line is that souls, in the Supernatural-verse, are apparently a far more powerful thing than we thought.
Note: The people saying this is inconsistent with Demons and Witches being able to hurt Amara at all are forgetting two things--One, Amara had just been hit by all of the combined power of Heaven. Two, those attacks were not really physical, they involved magic and soul-manipulation on some level. There are a lot of haxx durability-bypassing soul-manipulation powers possessed by Demons and Witches in Supernatural. Of course, Amara and God themselves are far higher level soul-manipulators.
This soul-bomb, on the other hand, while made from only a few hundred thousand souls, would release ALL OF THE ENERGY in a single blast in an instant, right? Seems very different to me.
Sometimes character statements are meant to show us information about tiering, and in this case it's pretty obvious that God himself (the be-all-and-end-all authority on knowledge of that verse) was giving a definitive statement of Amara's tier: That it'd take millions of supernovas to kill her. Which puts him and Amara somewhere around Very High Tier 4-A, if I'm not mistaken, if not low 3-C. Which may seem ridiculous until you consider that God WAS stated to have created the entire universe, containing billions of galaxies (albeit it took him a long time). And the bottom line is that souls, in the Supernatural-verse, are apparently a far more powerful thing than we thought.
Note: The people saying this is inconsistent with Demons and Witches being able to hurt Amara at all are forgetting two things--One, Amara had just been hit by all of the combined power of Heaven. Two, those attacks were not really physical, they involved magic and soul-manipulation on some level. There are a lot of haxx durability-bypassing soul-manipulation powers possessed by Demons and Witches in Supernatural. Of course, Amara and God themselves are far higher level soul-manipulators.
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If in Undertale 6 Souls can give you Tier 2 feats, then I don't see why hundreds of thousands / millions of souls in Supernatural can't give you Tier 4.
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That is a legit very innaccurate comparsion @Matthew
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Matt those are two completely different verses that function in different ways. Comparing them to each other is just ridiculous.
Also the souls in Undertale are vastly superior to the ones in Supernatural. You might as well say "Saitama is only one human and he can do Planet Level feats. The cast of the Walking Dead are a group of a whole bunch of humans." or that "Franklin Richards is just a human kid with powers. He has Low 2-C feats. The Magic School Bus are 6 human kids with powers."
Also the souls in Undertale are vastly superior to the ones in Supernatural. You might as well say "Saitama is only one human and he can do Planet Level feats. The cast of the Walking Dead are a group of a whole bunch of humans." or that "Franklin Richards is just a human kid with powers. He has Low 2-C feats. The Magic School Bus are 6 human kids with powers."
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I know, I'm just saying that in fiction something as simple sounding as a soul can be treated as extremely powerful.
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Nah man they're completely different verses with different ideas about "souls" and such, you can't just directly compare them like that.
That being said, The God That Created the Verse said that a single soul is like, on the tier of tens or hundreds of supernovas in Supernatural. So, yeah.
That being said, The God That Created the Verse said that a single soul is like, on the tier of tens or hundreds of supernovas in Supernatural. So, yeah.
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Going by your original quote,Matthew Schroeder said:
"If in Undertale 6 Souls can give you Tier 2 feats, then I don't see why hundreds of thousands / millions of souls in Supernatural can't give you Tier 4."
That was clearly not the original intention or meaning of what you said.
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Anyway, you guys be the judge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z60tSseNRPo
The scene starts at 1:29
Judging from the contect, both the quotes of "10 Million Supernovas requiring to kill the Darkness" and "A soul is as strong as 100 Suns" seem valid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z60tSseNRPo
The scene starts at 1:29
Judging from the contect, both the quotes of "10 Million Supernovas requiring to kill the Darkness" and "A soul is as strong as 100 Suns" seem valid.
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1.Crowley lend 50 thousand souls to Castiel so that he could launch an attack against Raphael and that's what he did ,he used the energy of those souls to hurt Raphael.
Later he absorbed 30 to 40 million souls from Purgatory to become God ,and we don't know how he powerscales to God and Amara wether you like it or not.
2.God said 10000 suns or ONE supernove.The energy the sun radiates per second is 3.97e26 Joules (Continent level),the light from 10000 suns would be 3.97e30 Joules (Small Planet level).And an average supernova has an energy of a few Foe's or Large Star level.So if we choose to follow these statements one of these would be used.
3.1 soul = 100 suns still is a hyperbole, if it wasn't then according to God 100 souls would be enough to kill the Darkness.(see statements contradict each other)
4.Universe level isn't happening.It wasn't only the death of God that caused existance to fade ,it was that the disturbance in the balance between light and dark.As Sam theorized if both God and Amara were to die the balance would be restored and God agreed.If God was to die in any other universe his death would have absolutely no effect on it.
Let me give you an example of what i'm saying:
Assuming that i an ordinary human have to power to destroy one specific building.Would i be able to fight a legitimate Building level character?
The answer is no and that's why we can't rate him as Universe level ,it would mean that he could fight other beings who can actually destroy a universe when they want to.
The stats i propose are
Attack Potency: At least Multi Continent level (should be stronger than Death),possibly Small Planet level or Large Star level (by statements)
@Goodyfresh even though the demons attacked her with a physical attack and the witches came before the smiting your explanation was the best i've heard so far.
Later he absorbed 30 to 40 million souls from Purgatory to become God ,and we don't know how he powerscales to God and Amara wether you like it or not.
2.God said 10000 suns or ONE supernove.The energy the sun radiates per second is 3.97e26 Joules (Continent level),the light from 10000 suns would be 3.97e30 Joules (Small Planet level).And an average supernova has an energy of a few Foe's or Large Star level.So if we choose to follow these statements one of these would be used.
3.1 soul = 100 suns still is a hyperbole, if it wasn't then according to God 100 souls would be enough to kill the Darkness.(see statements contradict each other)
4.Universe level isn't happening.It wasn't only the death of God that caused existance to fade ,it was that the disturbance in the balance between light and dark.As Sam theorized if both God and Amara were to die the balance would be restored and God agreed.If God was to die in any other universe his death would have absolutely no effect on it.
Let me give you an example of what i'm saying:
Assuming that i an ordinary human have to power to destroy one specific building.Would i be able to fight a legitimate Building level character?
The answer is no and that's why we can't rate him as Universe level ,it would mean that he could fight other beings who can actually destroy a universe when they want to.
The stats i propose are
Attack Potency: At least Multi Continent level (should be stronger than Death),possibly Small Planet level or Large Star level (by statements)
@Goodyfresh even though the demons attacked her with a physical attack and the witches came before the smiting your explanation was the best i've heard so far.
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^1. i dont remember them saying castiel absorbed 30 to 40 million souls, as far as i can recall they said that he absorbed every soul in purgotory until it was empthy...
3. they need 100,000 souls, afterall the explosion of 10 million suns is needed...
4. agree, it was the destruction of the balance that ripped apart the universe, but i think it wouldnt be wrong to add a "likely universe lvl" afterall he created the universe. not reality/existence etc per se but the -to us known- universe alongside hell/purgotory and heaven, i think universe-lvl is not that unlogical exspecially since we rated naruto/sasuke as moon-lvl because of their feats for creating a moon (and as far as i remember here we take it as such that is a char can create something than he can destroy it too)...
3. they need 100,000 souls, afterall the explosion of 10 million suns is needed...
4. agree, it was the destruction of the balance that ripped apart the universe, but i think it wouldnt be wrong to add a "likely universe lvl" afterall he created the universe. not reality/existence etc per se but the -to us known- universe alongside hell/purgotory and heaven, i think universe-lvl is not that unlogical exspecially since we rated naruto/sasuke as moon-lvl because of their feats for creating a moon (and as far as i remember here we take it as such that is a char can create something than he can destroy it too)...
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10 THOUSAND suns are needed not 10 million, the video is two comments above.
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^sorry, i remembered 10 million, yeah, it is 10 thousand suns...but that also only with a "maybe it could work" so it isnt even a certain thing that the darkness could have been killed with such a explosion :/
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She would definitely get hurt.
A problem still remains,which statement should be used?
10 thousand suns (which would make them Small Planet level) or the supernova (Large Star level).
And we should not forget that 4 Conitnent level characters (the archangels) were able to weaken her.
A problem still remains,which statement should be used?
10 thousand suns (which would make them Small Planet level) or the supernova (Large Star level).
And we should not forget that 4 Conitnent level characters (the archangels) were able to weaken her.
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^i think the supernova one makes sense considering that they talked about the "explosion" of them and not their existence in itself 
as for the power gap: did we ever see archangels to their fullest power?
raphael didnt do much before he was one-shotted, gabriel was playing around until meeting lucifer, lucifer and michael never had dean and sam(ok lucifer had but he didnt really show a lot) in order to fully utilize their powers,
i would say that we could upgrade the archangels to a "continent level + but possibly FAR higher",
PS: the archangels as far as we know only managed to help god to imprison the darkness, hurting her was not mentioned right? so the power gap of the archangels beings planet lvl while god/darkness are large star lvl can still apply :/
as for the power gap: did we ever see archangels to their fullest power?
raphael didnt do much before he was one-shotted, gabriel was playing around until meeting lucifer, lucifer and michael never had dean and sam(ok lucifer had but he didnt really show a lot) in order to fully utilize their powers,
i would say that we could upgrade the archangels to a "continent level + but possibly FAR higher",
PS: the archangels as far as we know only managed to help god to imprison the darkness, hurting her was not mentioned right? so the power gap of the archangels beings planet lvl while god/darkness are large star lvl can still apply :/
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It was mentioned in episode 22 that the archangels acutally weakened her so that God could seal her away.The incident is recreated in the episode but without the 3 Archangels and God didn't even attack Amara so it's safe to assume that they can actually hurt her.
They have a few feats that would place them at Mountain level (at best) so Continent level is the best we can rate them (because that's where the show placed them)
They didn't say 10000 suns exploding ,just the light of those Suns so it's not safe to just assume that the supernova is correct.
They have a few feats that would place them at Mountain level (at best) so Continent level is the best we can rate them (because that's where the show placed them)
They didn't say 10000 suns exploding ,just the light of those Suns so it's not safe to just assume that the supernova is correct.
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^weaker chars can hurt stronger chars despite the power difference (like a mosquito and a human), so 4 continent lvl chars could have enough hax in order to weaken amara (exspecially since supernatural always goes with hax instead of speed or AP :/ ), imo it would still work
seeing how they are stated tohae injured amara off-screen in someway or another i think we can safely say that they could very well be a lot stronger than shown
in the link metthew posted god said after around 2:42 that they need the supernova of 10000 suns, and dean also became a bomb instead of a shining man, the explosion calc should be used...
seeing how they are stated tohae injured amara off-screen in someway or another i think we can safely say that they could very well be a lot stronger than shown
in the link metthew posted god said after around 2:42 that they need the supernova of 10000 suns, and dean also became a bomb instead of a shining man, the explosion calc should be used...
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They did heavily imply that if Lucifer and Michael had ended up truly battling they would have quickly ended up destroying the Earth. I think that's a big reason people place the Archangels around 6-A, Continent Level.
Anyway, in the end even after being weakened by Lucifer using the Hand of God (he had the Spear of Longinus or something and in the finale it was confirmed that it was a Hand of God, which gives Lucifer a massive power-boost past his ordinary tier) and by the combined power of all of Heaven, etc., Amara still VERY casually one-shotted Lucifer, a Continent Level, and mortally wounded God.
I think we should go with the Supernova statement personally but if you guys disagree that's fine too, I can see why people would be skeptical. But they had actually stated earlier in the series, several times, that "human souls are the most brilliant and potent source of light and power in all the universe" or something along those lines, seriously. I don't remember the episodes where it was stated because teh series has hundreds of episodes, but I do remember that being stated.
Anyway, in the end even after being weakened by Lucifer using the Hand of God (he had the Spear of Longinus or something and in the finale it was confirmed that it was a Hand of God, which gives Lucifer a massive power-boost past his ordinary tier) and by the combined power of all of Heaven, etc., Amara still VERY casually one-shotted Lucifer, a Continent Level, and mortally wounded God.
I think we should go with the Supernova statement personally but if you guys disagree that's fine too, I can see why people would be skeptical. But they had actually stated earlier in the series, several times, that "human souls are the most brilliant and potent source of light and power in all the universe" or something along those lines, seriously. I don't remember the episodes where it was stated because teh series has hundreds of episodes, but I do remember that being stated.
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to be a nitpicker: lucifer wasnt in sam, that means he was weaker since castiels hosts body wasnt a perfect vessel, if lucifer stayed longer the body would get destroyed,Goodyfresh said:
and god didnt really fight amara, he didnt do anythin while amara attacked :/
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@GreatestSin hmm...i may have misinterpreted the statement, i thought it was 10000 suns or a supernova not 10000 exploding, i will see if i can find the script of the episode or something.
Tohae?
@Goodyfresh Michael and Lucifer were going to burn the surface of the planet not destroy the planet as a whole.And yes that's why we rate them as Continent level
The spear with which Lucifer pierced Amara wasn't a hand of God ,and in the season finale Castiel said that Amara sent Lucifer away implying that she didn't kill him.
Tohae?
@Goodyfresh Michael and Lucifer were going to burn the surface of the planet not destroy the planet as a whole.And yes that's why we rate them as Continent level
The spear with which Lucifer pierced Amara wasn't a hand of God ,and in the season finale Castiel said that Amara sent Lucifer away implying that she didn't kill him.
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Because this seems to go nowhere i will change their stats to this:
Attack Potency: Unknown ,at least Multi Continent level ,possibly Solar System level
Durability: same
And i will add the proper explanation as a note on their pages.
Attack Potency: Unknown ,at least Multi Continent level ,possibly Solar System level
Durability: same
And i will add the proper explanation as a note on their pages.
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yeah, seems like the best solution
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The Darkness should be higher than 9-A, thats for sure
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This is a harsh bump but if all of existence was going to fade away... Then that would include the alternate reality that Sam and Dean were sent to in Balthazar right? And also, someone calced Castiel's speed feat.
http://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/castiel-searches-city-spn-calc.34755/
If you take away the inconsistent plot armor of Sam and Dean, the angels really are more powerful than normal.
http://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/castiel-searches-city-spn-calc.34755/
If you take away the inconsistent plot armor of Sam and Dean, the angels really are more powerful than normal.
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I call BS to even the Archangels being continent level. They have never shown this power, only hyped to be at this level. I mean Lucifer was seriously injured by the Hand of God, and the blast didn't even destroy a wall. He was also seriously injured by the Colt, so are we claiming continent level DC for the Colt? Azazel was able to stop a Colt round with TK, so are we claiming continental level TK for Azazel? Sam and Dean were able to resist Azazel's TK, so are we claiming continental level durability for Sam and Dean? lol. Yeah no one in Supernatural has shown anything above superhuman stats. Hell Sam was literally able to drag Michael down to Hell with him.
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.... Ever heard of Attack Potency?
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What you just said is simply the age-old AoE fallacy.ToAruFan said:
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