Superman tier upgrade

[DaReaperMan]

At best I feel he should be "at least 4-B, likely low 2-C"'just because of the sheer amount of feats on these levels

by sheer amount you mean 2-6? the OP isn't all of that

 

[DTG499]

I suggested this over a year ago to a staff member but it seems like people are just fine with seeing the same exact CRT over and over again. Even though people say they are tired of seeing it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Consider most of these feats have already been discussed, is everyone okay with closing this thread?

At some point we'll probably have to do a large thread covering most of these, since it's all basically the same copy-paste that originated forever ago.

 

[Greenshifter]

Sure, close it. It'd indeed be better to have a revision where all the feats I know I can defend are in the OP and sourced rather than just a copy-paste of Nia's blog. That's probably gonna take a long while though.

 

[Firestorm808]

At some point we'll probably have to do a large thread covering most of these, since it's all basically the same copy-paste that originated forever ago.

I'll be adding them to my feat timelines.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Well, we already have the OPs consent, and as I mentioned earlier, if anyone wishes to bring up certain feats for re-evaluation, we ask that they cite the source comic and fix any broken links.

I plan on doing this in the future with a more organized thread

 

[Garchomp777]

I have some feats not even firestorm can debunk

 

[Bernkastelll]

Gotta respect the man who made this CRT, he said that doesnt know about DC but made the CRT just to clarify some doubts and things that he saw about others Superman profiles in others wiki, or something like that, but now, his thread has 3 pages and 250 replies

 

[Firestorm808]

Gotta respect the man who made this CRT, he said that doesnt know about DC but made the CRT just to clarify some doubts and things that he saw about others Superman profiles in others wiki, or something like that, but now, his thread has 3 pages and 250 replies

The premise of the thread is basically the same as the previous one. https://vsbattles.com/threads/65-feats.62526/

I have some feats not even firestorm can debunk

Thank you for your help in the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Deagonx @Elizio33

What do you think about this?

Perhaps @Firestorm808 could organise a proper analysis of the feats timeline for Superman and present it in a blog and content revisions thread at some point, so we can link to it in the Superman profile page? This one seems too disorganised and dependent on out of context respect thread scans for such a controversial change.

 

[Greenshifter]

dependent on out of context respect thread scans

It comes from Nia’s page, not a respect thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies.

 

[Musaabu02]

Homie let’s just work on the low 2-C argument. One thing at a time.

Ok

 

[Musaabu02]

Actually even when serious he holds back lol (Superman #217).

Anyways if Superman got a varies or possibly kind of tier, that'd be fine with me. Maybe we could give him something like Captain Atom's page with separate keys for holding back or going all out.

I love your reasoning

 

[Musaabu02]

Even against more powerful beings while pissed also he still holds back

superman in-character basically holds back 24/7 unless he is seriously and utterly pissed

 

[Musaabu02]

this might just put DC at 5-B

9-C will be better tho

 

[Musaabu02]

Last time i check this story it isn't suppost to be canon

All stories and histories are now 1 in death metal

 

[Musaabu02]

I never did,just stated Manhattan saw as a threat

Someone needing to defend themselves doesn't scale the other character.

 

[Musaabu02]

That's him threatening Superman if he doesn't try to take him out.

?

 

[Musaabu02]

1. Someone needing to defend themselves doesn't scale the other character.
2. That's him threatening Superman if he doesn't try to take him out.

No he doesn't, again it's a generic "one of us has to win" here kind of thing. We also don't know the means of Superman's win, or its probability.
Regardless, it seems you dropped the point as you've agreed it's true that you can't scale to Manhattan off of his durability.

Yep I agreed to the durability aspect my own is just Manhattan saw him as a threat and had doubts whether he destroyed everything or superman destroyed him.

Yh,am just pushing for a possible 2-C

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Could you not spam so many posts at once and just put all your arguments into one post?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

7) Properly presenting the full contexts for scans of feats:When attempting to get profile page changes accepted in content revisions threads, always add full issue number references for the stories in which the feats depicted in images occurr, so the members evaluating them can more easily verify the authenticity and canonical reliability of what is truly going on. It is also preferable if you honestly try to explain what is happening in the stories, as it is quite common for people to represent illegitimate feats out of context, including well-intended victims of misinformation (via respect threads or otherwise).

- Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

Based on this rule it’s probably a good idea to just close this and let Firestorm make a more organized thread analyzing the feats later on.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, Firestorm808 is already working on this long-term as far as I am aware.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Yeah the thread should be fine to closed. I guess the discussion rule can be added if the more organized thread is rejected instead?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just going to comment here real quick, I know Firestorm is one of the main people working on counter arguments atm; but I'm positive that pretty much everything here was brought up before by people like Soldier of Krypton or Tonathan; especially the latter which FanofRPGs also rebutted. And Matt is right that nearly every Tier 2 scan is like a single page from some random comics but those who pretty much read the rest of the comics pretty much confirm that they're not universal and/or are merely chain reactions and what not. And I was the one who proposed a discussion rule years ago, but I think it was decided to add a footnote instead it appears.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus is likely correct.

We need a better written rebuttal blog to link to in the profile page than the discussion threads that we use currently though.

 

[Musaabu02]

Varies will be better

4-B at most low 2-C seems fine to me

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Superman varying doesn't mean the Low 2-C feats aren't often lacking context or dishonest in their presentation. This is a flawed argument because it assumes the premise from the go.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I agree with closing this than.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so. Please keep me informed about your progress Firestorm808.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I really want to see Firestorm's timeline. We know Supes was not always at the same level during the Post-Crisis period. We need to see his feats as he scaled up in power and identify the in-verse reasoning for the various displays. I can not understate how much context plays a role in DC/Marvel feats.

To give an example from Marvel: a little while ago, someone wanted to upgrade Thor's base 4-B to be on par with Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer based upon a fight they had when Galactus attacked Asgard. Seems simple except for two factors: Post-Annihilation SS is stronger than Thanos (whose always been superior to Thor) and there was no in-verse reason for Thor to have become that powerful. So while on the surface the upgrade seems fine, the context that fight should have happened under made no sense.

Superman has certain benchmarks, periods of time where he has gotten stronger or stated to have become stronger. We need to identify the moments, analyze them and then see where his various feats fit into them. We have to deconstruct his career as it unfolded before we just start handing out tiers.

That's I think.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I really want to see Firestorm's timeline. We know Supes was not always at the same level during the Post-Crisis period. We need to see his feats as he scaled up in power and identify the in-verse reasoning for the various displays. I can not understate how much context plays a role in DC/Marvel feats.

To give an example from Marvel: a little while ago, someone wanted to upgrade Thor's base 4-B to be on par with Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer based upon a fight they had when Galactus attacked Asgard. Seems simple except for two factors: Post-Annihilation SS is stronger than Thanos (whose always been superior to Thor) and there was no in-verse reason for Thor to have become that powerful. So while on the surface the upgrade seems fine, the context that fight should have happened under made no sense.

Superman has certain benchmarks, periods of time where he has gotten stronger or stated to have become stronger. We need to identify the moments, analyze them and then see where his various feats fit into them. We have to deconstruct his career as it unfolded before we just start handing out tiers.

That's I think.

unfortunately I don't own and DC or Marvel comic books to help you on that one, also superman probably has more tier 9 and 8 feats then my 1,803 messages posted honestly

 

[Antvasima]

I really want to see Firestorm's timeline. We know Supes was not always at the same level during the Post-Crisis period. We need to see his feats as he scaled up in power and identify the in-verse reasoning for the various displays. I can not understate how much context plays a role in DC/Marvel feats.

To give an example from Marvel: a little while ago, someone wanted to upgrade Thor's base 4-B to be on par with Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer based upon a fight they had when Galactus attacked Asgard. Seems simple except for two factors: Post-Annihilation SS is stronger than Thanos (whose always been superior to Thor) and there was no in-verse reason for Thor to have become that powerful. So while on the surface the upgrade seems fine, the context that fight should have happened under made no sense.

Superman has certain benchmarks, periods of time where he has gotten stronger or stated to have become stronger. We need to identify the moments, analyze them and then see where his various feats fit into them. We have to deconstruct his career as it unfolded before we just start handing out tiers.

That's I think.

Strongly agreed. Post-Crisis Superman when first introduced could explicitly be knocked out by a nuclear explosion.

 

[Waka1979]

Well I strongly disagree with scaling superman to a low tier feat that occurred at the literal start of his career, and I disagree with removing 4-B entirely

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, of course. The point is that his power levels have gradually developed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

anyway should this thread be closed due to the clear revision of superman that will be happening?

 

[Waka1979]

I mean you could say that about pretty much every comic book character

 

[DaReaperMan]

in that case this definetly should be closed

 

[Qawsedf234]

but I'm positive that pretty much everything here was brought up before by people like Soldier of Krypton or Tonathan; especially the latter which FanofRPGs also rebutted.

It comes from a Google+ blog that was then shifted to a character stats thing (or maybe the reverse happened). Its been around for multiple years and typically the arguments never change. Its why half the scans a can't be seen, because its linked to said Google+ blog

Post-Crisis Superman's fight with Golden Age Superman rewrote timelines and shattered a space-time continuum.

It was repeatedly stated that they would destroy each others’ universes and then eventually they started shattering the universe again, and they were again shown rewriting timelines.

The DC Comics website confirms that the two were shaking the space-time continuum apart.

In this same issue the narration states that their blows shattered the world they were on, only for the following page to show it was completely fine. They're standing in a nexus caused by the multiverse breaking down and reshaping. If they did anything it was because they were in special area that they can't naturally replicate.

Superman punched back Orion and fought on par with him on another occasion, who tanked a weapon capable of annihilating the universe, as well as having one fifth the power of a Big Bang.

Would be fine if this wasn't a literal chain reaction feat

Superman's heat vision made up one fourth of the power capable of creating a universe and causing the defeat of Hal Jordan, who was going to create a new universe, and the attack caused a Big Bang to occur.

No it didn't. He just shot energy blast at someone that didn't accomplish anything. Know why? Because Spectre had to provide the energy to actually trigger the big bang. Superman accomplished nothing.

Superman has fought Brainiac 13 on three different occasions, who can ravage timelines and rewrite the universe.

No he didn't. In the Y2K storyline and in OWAW Superman was incapable of even harming Brainiac 13. Only winning in Y2K because B13 had a specific weakness to Kryptonian technology that ignored durability and he only accomplished anything in OWAW after diving into the core of the sun and being reduced to a skeleton that then regenerated into a flaming heavily amped Superman.

As for the "ravages timelines" and "rewrites the universe" both are bunk. The scans coms from Young Justice: Our Worlds at War, where the YJ team was sent so far into the future that time and space no longer had meaning. Its after Brainiac had billions of years to reorganize the universe. The bigger issue is that this was also all a trick by B13 to convince people to join his side. Later on its firmly established that he needed Imperiex's energies to rewrite realties and even then it would be over an incredibly long period of time. Its a prep feat treated as an actual feat

Post-Crisis Superman defeated Superboy-Prime alongside Golden Age Superman, who can withstand a Big Bang, and who was considered on par with the Silver Age Anti-Monitor, who was going to consume the universe and was defeated by Golden Age Superman and Superboy-Prime even after absorbing all energy from the antimatter universe and using it to fight them.

He didn't beat him in a legitimate fight. SBP could have broken his hold at any time, but didn't because he was mocking him. After they rammed SBP through Rao he lost basically all of his powers and Superman was stripped of his strength for an entire year.

Post-Crisis Superman was shown earlier to stalemate Golden Age Superman, who stalemated Silver Age Superman, who caused a universe to be created following the death of Maaldor, tanked the Big Bang, bursted through the bounds of infinity, shattered the barriers of space and time casually while flying, delivered a blow greater than any force in the universe, and fought against Blackstarr, a woman capable of destroying the universe and attacking him with the gravitational force of the whole universe, who also has absolute control over all aspects of the cosmos and all forces that created the universe.

Sure I guess. You know, as long as you ignore that Post-Crisis GA Superman is much weaker than he was Pre-Crisis and he has zero feats on SA Superman's level

Superman is stronger than Doctor Sivana, who had the power of Shazam, who fought and stalemated the Invincible Man for several hours, who wields the power of the Big Bang.

I like how the user here provides the scans and then just, you know, ignores the one where Marvel states the room they're in cuts off Invincible Man of his powers and that's why he won, since he could just outlast him. Also I just want people to know, the story with Invincible Man comes from World's Finest #257, which came out in July of 1979. You know.... pre-crisis.

Superman fought against Nebula Man, who is a universe.

Nebula Man can only become a universe when consuming enough matter to replace the current one. As you can easily tell by his size, he has obviously not done so. This is not a 3-A feat.

Superman fought 30th century Mordru who had all of the magical power of a universe.

You know that would be nice if the last panel of the page didn't you know, explain that a page of roughly equal mage hits him from behind which then allows Superman to escape.

Superman fought the Time Trapper, who is a sentient timeline capable of shattering timelines.

He fought him with an asterisk. Damage inflicted on past SBP effects the Time Trapper and due to various nerfs the past SBP was being pounded on by the Legion. Superman didn't even beat him, but an absorbed Mordru white witch.

Superman fought Monarch, whose quantum power is like the Big Bang, and whose fight with Captain Atom was twisting space and time and causing compressed universes to explode.

People who post this scan are lying or have never read this story line. Why? Because Monarch in the first scan comes from the Armageddon 2001 storyline where Monarch was shown to be Hawk and not Captain Atom. Its a false comparison using the first scan and the second set is just them being BFR'ed into another dimension.

Captain Atom has destroyed and recreated the universe and can freely control it, and was going to destroy several universes, and oneshotted Jenny Quantum, who created a universe, tear apart a reality, contain a universe with her powers, and annihilated the Doctor, who can create a universe, and yet is weaker than Superman.

I like this set because it just ends on a wrong scan. Captain Atom was fighting Majestic there, not Jenny. So like... there's nothing there really. Jenny also has no durability when not using her powers to my memory.

Superman survived an encounter with a tesseract swarm.

How.... how is being reduced to ribbons across space time a feat?

Superman defeats Black Adam, who survived a tesseract expanding in his head. Superman stalemates amped Shazam right after fighting Black Adam, who tanked a tesseract bomb in his base.

None of these are 3-A feats so I have zero idea why they're included

Superman tanked a punch from Icon, who killed Starbreaker, who killed someone who was holding the universe together.

I like this scan because if you read the next issue you'll find out its just a fake hologram and the real Starbreaker is so weakened that he's killed by a bullet

Superman fights Wonder Woman on multiple occasions, and even killed her once, who can recreate the timeline with her Lasso of Truth, can fight the Queen of Fables, who is an extra-dimensional embodiment of evil folklore, and can withstand attacks from 4-D when she's utilising four-dimensional energy.

I like how all of these scans aren't feats for Diana and the ones that are admits they're amps. But still tries to scale Superman to them

Superman fought the Red King, who can reshape the universe and destroy possibilities containing universes one by one, as well as having created the universe with his dreams.

I like how different versions of the JL doing zero damage to this character and requiring an amp later on to actually beat him somehow scales to their physicals

Superman fought Imperiex probes for several days, who can individually fight against and mortally wound Aquaman, who was causing the universe to collapse on itself.

Imperiex Probes can be defeated by Matrix Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Young Justice, and various other heroes. Doomsday also kills hundreds of them on his own.

The Aquaman one is like, just bad if you actual read the Obsidian age. Since he's telling the giant witch her goal of destroying all water on Earth has failed and her alternate history will end. Its not a AP feat

Superman fought and overwhelmed the Kryptonian God Cythonna, who warred for a long time against the Kryptonian God Rao, who created the universe.

I like how the OP said "Overwhelmed the Kryptonian God Cythonna". Showing he didn't read any of these scans since Superman was demolished while she wasn't trying to kill him and she only lost due to an environmental weakness.

Also nothing confirms Rao created the universe. In fact basically have multiple confirmations that the giant hand was not Rao.

Superman pushed through the barriers of space and time, and then defeated the embodiment of his own Death, who caused the universe to compress on Superman, only for him to overcome it.

None of this was real. This was his death trying to mentally break Superman to he would give up and die, freeing him from being reasonable for an immortal being. Superman never giving up is what beats Death, who then changes his attidude because Superman is such a good person his personal Death also becomes a good person.

Assuming this actually exist and this isn't just Superman's guilt being personified as the story hints.

Superman tanked Aztek's self-destruction of four-dimensional energy.

Something being fourth dimensional does not mean its Low 2-C. It hurt the giant space kraken but that thing isn't Low 2-C either

Superman can withstand attacks from and damage the Lord of Time, who is four-dimensional.

Being fourth dimensional does not mean a character is Low 2-C. He shows no Low 2-C feats and his attacks rely on standard time travel shennigans.

Superman tanks attacks from Firestorm, who has the power of a Big Bang.

No, Firestorm has the power of the Big Bang in him and if he ever triggered his full power the universe would explode.

As you can obviously tell, the universe did not explode. So he did not use the full power of the matrix.

Superman has overwhelmed Kyle Rayner on multiple occasions, who defeated an aberration that was breaking down the laws of space and time and the universe, remaking it into a world devoid of cause and effect and reason, and these changes were reverted by Kyle Rayner.

The Aberration thing (Anarky Vol 2 1-3) explains itself. They beat it by just thinking really hard that it'll disappear, which is only possible because the Aberration caused physics to get wonky.

Also the Aberration was only effecting a few square miles of land. It was no where near universal and wouldn't be so for a long while.

Superman fights Blackstar, who wields the the energies of the cosmos.

That's.... still not a Low 2-C feat. Being enhanced by something doesn't suddenly make you Low 2-C

Superman overwhelmed Starman, who can defeat Darklord Maaldor, who can become a universe

Maaldor nerfed himself to fight Starman and was then defeated because Starman learned his crippling weakness. Even then he wasn't killed, just BFR'ed

 

[DaReaperMan]

in that case this definetly should be closed

you said that as i was pushing for the thread to be closed, and that has been said 3 times before you said anything, good lord man way to beat the dead horse that is these arguments lol