Super Saiyan God Multipler

[TheGodOfICE777]

No, the reason is because it is shown to be by blitizing a 100% freeza who in 50% is superior to kaioken 20x goku


Also was compared to kaioken iirc, i will look for the exact statement ok?


It has a speed boost, just an unquantifiable one

From the multiplier page:

"
One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but their speed is untouched."

All has been said is that it "should" be the same multiplier for speed while giving no good reason for this to be the case, and also giving whatabouts, if the ssj1 needs to be downgrade to unquantifiably above 40x, then it will be, i remember statements that would make it 50x speed tho, instead of giving examples please argue with the logic presented


We don't, we really do not


Let say that it is just unquantifiably above 100% freeza, what about it?


This confused me even more ngl

It is fine dude

And this changes anything I said because? This is supporting evidence but the main reason we use the 50x multiplier for speed is because it’s stated to multiply BP by 50x if we didn’t SSJ has a 40x multiplier

Okay but there’s no statements of speed being exactly multiplied even with Kaioken Kaioken is just stated to increase your speed power durability etc. etc. and our reasoning for this is in the notes of the db page but Kaioken is only stated to multiply BP so it would be a double standard to accept this for SSJ and KK and not other forms where speed is being increased as well

Yeah but his speed doesn’t remain “untouched” ssj2 increases your speed so yeah I’d agree if ssj2 was explicitly shown And stated not to be faster than the previous ssj grades

There’s a speed increase though

Then if you accept SSJ multiples your speed by 50x and Kaioken multiplies your speed by whatever x it is you have to accept that ssj2 multiplies your speed as well but if you think Kaioken And SSJ should just have an unquantifable increase in speed then your arguments and logic are pretty consistent

Im saying the logic you’re using would still stand if we use 100% frieza instead of kkx20 goku

Do we have enough mods agreeing to apply the new multipliers because stone walling and suddenly changing standards to nitpick has gotten old. How many mods have agreed?

Nah id probably suggest getting some more staff to comment I think we need another one like asking Lonkitt or another staff member like Griffin

DDM seems fine with SSG being 500x above SS3 which is already 500x base but I think we need more staff approval still

SSJG first time > Vegito SSJ3 > Vegito > SSJ3 Goku > Base Goku

so it’s more like above Vegito base who’s stronger than SSJ3

 

[omegabronic]

Do we have enough mods agreeing to apply the new multipliers

The multipliers were always only to power, that was the suggestion from the earlier thread in the first place

because stone walling and suddenly changing standards to nitpick has gotten old.

Of course, me poiting and using the standards is me changing them, i was just poiting that the multiplier that was accepted does no apply to speed, and that for you to use them for such would need aproval first

How man

We only had 1 from damage, and he seemed to have disagreed, we should call him back to see what he thinks now

 

[Eseseso]

What proof is there that UIO scales above SSJB Gogeta?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

The multipliers were always only to power, that was the suggestion from the earlier thread in the first place


Of course, me poiting and using the standards is me changing them, i was just poiting that the multiplier that was accepted does no apply to speed, and that for you to use them for such would need aproval first


We only had 1 from damage, and he seemed to have disagreed, we should call him back to see what he thinks now

Uh, no they weren't, and that's irrelevant, in fact the rest of your post is irrelevant lmao. I'm asking if we had enough mods which is a yes or no answer. I don't need the usual 'nuh uh because I said so' thing, if you wanna ignore the standards on this site for Dragon Ball than thats your prerogative.

Do we have enough mods? No? Then say no.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

We only had 1 from damage, and he seemed to have disagreed, we should call him back to see what he thinks now

He had a misconception about how fusion works, he didn't actually tackle the OP

 

[omegabronic]

And this changes anything I said because? This is supporting evidence but the main reason we use the 50x multiplier for speed is because it’s stated to multiply BP by 50x if we didn’t SSJ has a 40x multiplier

Ok then, ssj1 has a 40x multiplier then, but i am 70% sure that we have a statement that it is compared to kaioken and that is the reason we use it the way we do

Okay but there’s no statements of speed being exactly multiplied even with Kaioken Kaioken is just stated to increase your speed power durability etc.

it is said to multiply all of those things, kaioken we have a multiplier statement, and that everything increases by the same ammount

etc. and our reasoning for this is in the notes of the db page but Kaioken is only stated to multiply BP so it would be a double standard to accept this for SSJ and KK and not other forms where speed is being increased as well

It is stated to multiply the stats, it is never stated to multiply the battle power, we know it does, but we take the kaioken multiplier the way we do because it is said to work that way, multiplying all stats

Yeah but his speed doesn’t remain “untouched” ssj2 increases your speed

again, when have i said otherwise?

so yeah I’d agree if ssj2 was explicitly shown And stated not to be faster than the previous ssj grades

Again, the problem is that the multipliers for the earlier form, aka grade 3 is never stated or shown to multiply speed by the same ammount as power

There’s a speed increase though

when have i said that it doesn't?

Then if you accept SSJ multiples your speed by 50x and Kaioken multiplies your speed by whatever x it is you have to accept that ssj2 multiplies your speed as well

Kaioken has statements that say that it works that way, but i will look for the ssj1 statements later

but if you think Kaioken And SSJ should just have an unquantifable increase in speed then your arguments and logic are pretty consistent

Ok

Im saying the logic you’re using would still stand if we use 100% frieza instead of kkx20 goku

Again, i will look for statements later

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Why tf was there a stonewall about how Grade 3 works in a thread proposing a multiplier for Super Saiyan God?

 

[omegabronic]

Uh, no they weren't, and that's irrelevant, in fact the rest of your post is irrelevant lmao.

Yes they were, the statement and proposal was 10x stronger multiplier after all

I'm asking if we had enough mods which is a yes or no answer.

You also talked about me and my points, which i answered to explain myself in that regard, i answered you

I don't need the usual 'nuh uh because I said so' thing, if you wanna ignore the standards on this site for Dragon Ball than thats your prerogative.

i am not ignoring the standards, i am just explaining them and how they don't mean what is being said that they do

Do we have enough mods? No? Then say no.

Ok, the no, you asked how many had tho, so i amswered based on that, sorry for the confusion i guess

 

[omegabronic]

He had a misconception about how fusion works, he didn't actually tackle the OP

More reason to call him back here

Why tf was there a stonewall about how Grade 3 works in a thread proposing a multiplier for Super Saiyan God?

Because that is the entire basis for to say if it will apply to speed as well or not

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Yes they were, the statement and proposal was 10x stronger multiplier after all


You also talked about me and my points, which i answered to explain myself in that regard, i answered you


i am not ignoring the standards, i am just explaining them and how they don't mean what is being said that they do


Ok, the no, you asked how many had tho, so i amswered based on that, sorry for the confusion i guess

So in response to my post talking about how it is literally just a yes or no answer you don't give me a yes or no answer. I never said anything about any of your specific points, you made that jump, Topaz already laid out the standards for how we treat Dragon Ball, and it took you until the very end to say no we don't have enough.

Like bro I wasn't engaging in your stone wall I asked if we had enough mods and how many had agreed. That's it. I don't need the usual break down my post sentence by sentence and respond with a nothing paragraph for each one.

 

[AguilaR202]

Grade 3 decreases speed massively, I wouldn’t count on SS2 being a 10x multiplier for speed if that’s the basis, all we know is that it can blitz SS1 but even a 30% difference in speeds can achieve that ie: Saiyan Saga Kaioken.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The multipliers were always only to power, that was the suggestion from the earlier thread in the first place


Of course, me poiting and using the standards is me changing them, i was just poiting that the multiplier that was accepted does no apply to speed, and that for you to use them for such would need aproval first


We only had 1 from damage, and he seemed to have disagreed, we should call him back to see what he thinks now

Damage never disagreed he was just asking questions

Ok then, ssj1 has a 40x multiplier then, but i am 70% sure that we have a statement that it is compared to kaioken and that is the reason we use it the way we do


it is said to multiply all of those things, kaioken we have a multiplier statement, and that everything increases by the same ammount


It is stated to multiply the stats, it is never stated to multiply the battle power, we know it does, but we take the kaioken multiplier the way we do because it is said to work that way, multiplying all stats


again, when have i said otherwise?


Again, the problem is that the multipliers for the earlier form, aka grade 3 is never stated or shown to multiply speed by the same ammount as power


when have i said that it doesn't?


Kaioken has statements that say that it works that way, but i will look for the ssj1 statements later


Ok


Again, i will look for statements later

Now that you’ve conceded on that point this is where I say then don’t derail the crt if it’s accepted that is how ki works then we’re using the multiplier on that basis simple and we know SSJ2 is an additional speed amp as well but you can look for statements later but that is why we accepted it it’s not hard to understand and SSJ is not accepted as a 40x speed multiplier

Why tf was there a stonewall about how Grade 3 works in a thread proposing a multiplier for Super Saiyan God?

Omega


also I don’t mind asking Damage again since he never gave a full opinion though I would suggest getting more mods as well so this is thorough

Grade 3 decreases speed massively, I wouldn’t count on SS2 being a 10x multiplier for speed if that’s the basis, all we know is that it can blitz SS1 but even a 30% difference in speeds can achieve that ie: Saiyan Saga Kaioken.

We acknowledge grade 3 decreased speed we were more so saying that its because of the bulky muscles it decreases speed and SSJ2 doesnt have this problem so the multiplier would still be in effect and plus we already have a note on this basis on db page

 

[omegabronic]

Now that you’ve conceded on that point this is where I say then don’t derail the crt if it’s accepted that is how ki works then we’re using the multiplier on that basis

This is not accepted to be how ki works, that is the point, nowhere in the verse page on anywhere else do i see anything that says that we treat it like that, it is simply not a thing

simple and we know SSJ2 is an additional speed amp as well but you can look for statements later but that is why we accepted it it’s not hard to understand and SSJ is not accepted as a 40x speed multiplier

again, i am pretty sure that was because of a statement comparing it with kaioken

on db page

The note does not say anything on what you guys are saying tho

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It really isn't, it is me asking for proof of affirmations that you are making, how is that me arguing from incredulity when i have given examples of multipliers that do what i am asking for you to prove for this one?


all that this note is saying is that raising ki = raising every stat, which is kind of obvious since ki is what gives the stats, it is not saying that multiplying power by 10x will multiply every stat by 10x, we don't have a statement that every growth in strength is proportional to one another, we don't have a statement that a multiplier in one stat will multiply another stat by the same ammount, the note never says anything ammount every multiplier multiplying every stat equally

Let me teach you basic math, since this involves an increase in potential energy.

If 10x Ki = 10x Power
By logic of consequence, 10x Power must be 10x Ki.

And if you try to ask me why Grade 3 isn't 10 times faster, I will lose my mind because I already explained the reason why speed is sacrificed

says who? Does it have any statement that it multiplies anything but power? Give me that and i will concede immediatly

You're just denying standards.

Not really? Dispo is comparable to toppo even tho he is faster than toppo


And what makes them exeptions exactly? When was this rule ever stated? More over, when was this "rule" ever accepted? Because the only note in the verse page is jot saying that at all

Well, now that's just denial in it's purest form, the note very clearly states that all stats scale to each other exponentially. You might have a higher base speed, but if your power is multiplied by 10, your speed also would be.

You can imagine this as a J-RPG stat distribution, where most fighters are balanced, while some are specialized in speed, or power.

They're the exception because if I ask you to show me any other examples where both speed and power weren't equal, you would struggle.

 

[omegabronic]

Let me teach you basic math, since this involves an increase in potential energy.

If 10x Ki = 10x Power
By logic of consequence, 10x Power must be 10x Ki.

Does 10x more ki = 10x more power tho?

And if you try to ask me why Grade 3 isn't 10 times faster, I will lose my mind because I already explained the reason why speed is sacrificed

I will not, you explained well enough

You're just denying standards.

What standards? The note you showed me on the verse page is not saying what you are saying, that a multipliet to one stat = all stats multiplied to the same multiplier, just to be clear, i am not denying that a character raising his ki = all stats grow, that much is kind of obvious since ki is the font of the raw power of the verse afterall

Well, now that's just denial in it's purest form, the note very clearly states that all stats scale to each other exponentially.

No it doesn't? it just says that having more ki gives you more stats

You might have a higher base speed, but if your power is multiplied by 10, your speed also would be.

Again, that is not what the notes says

You can imagine this as a J-RPG stat distribution, where most fighters are balanced, while some are specialized in speed, or power.

But following this logic, why wouldn't apply to nultipliers as well, following your rpg example, the grade 3 multiplier of power could just be a multiplier expecialized in power and not speed, since power is what it is stated to be multiplied

They're the exception because if I ask you to show me any other examples where both speed and power weren't equal, you would struggle.

I asked more of, how can they be exeptions? Like, how can they "cheat" the system? I believe we are starting to derail this thread a bit, would you mind if we take this to one of our walls? I think that it would be better for the thread

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

This is not accepted to be how ki works, that is the point, nowhere in the verse page on anywhere else do i see anything that says that we treat it like that, it is simply not a thing


again, i am pretty sure that was because of a statement comparing it with kaioken


The note does not say anything on what you guys are saying tho

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power,[2] speed,[3] aerial capabilities,[4] destructive capacity,[4] and defense.[4]

Literally the examples of the this include Kaioken scans I don’t see how more straightforward this can get

i have no idea what you’re referring to but if you’re using the Kaioken x20 reasoning again I already addressed that since with your logic it’s just unquantifably above that but we accept SSJ as a 50x speed boost due to the multiplier and for there to be shown to be a speed amp that’s beyond the previous thing making it consistent

It literally does… i don’t see how you’re missing the whole point bruh

 

[omegabronic]

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power,[2] speed,[3] aerial capabilities,[4] destructive capacity,[4] and defense.[4]

Literally the examples of the this include Kaioken scans I don’t see how more straightforward this can get

Yeah, because in the kaioken example it is shown that raising your ki raises your stats overall, i really don't see your point

i have no idea what you’re referring to but if you’re using the Kaioken x20 reasoning again I already addressed that since with your logic it’s just unquantifably above that but we accept SSJ as a 50x speed boost

how many times will i have to say "it was compared to kaioken iirc" for you to understand that this is my point? This is why i agreed to stop, because i need to look for that scan, plus wrong logic things being accepted are not that rare around here

due to the multiplier and for there to be shown to be a speed amp that’s beyond the previous thing making it consistent

again, the wording and link on the note do not say that

It literally does… i don’t see how you’re missing the whole point bruh

I say the same to you, let us stop now shall we?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Yeah, because in the kaioken example it is shown that raising your ki raises your stats overall, i really don't see your point


how many times will i have to say "it was compared to kaioken iirc" for you to understand that this is my point? This is why i agreed to stop, because i need to look for that scan, plus wrong logic things being accepted are not that rare around here


again, the wording and link on the note do not say that


I say the same to you, let us stop now shall we?

I mean I guess we can stop since it’s derailing to keep talking about stuff the wiki already accepts but you answered your own question already

 

[AguilaR202]

Speeds still aren’t upgraded either ways and would require a separate thread.

 

[AwkguyDB]

yeah all I care is the multiplier being accepted which simply needs one staff agree.

 

[Eseseso]

I think it should be a 10x speed multiplier for SSJ2 (could've sworn in the previous CRT we said SSJ2 was 20x SSJ and not just 10x), but for USSJ it should just be >= ASSJ.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Does 10x more ki = 10x more power tho?


I will not, you explained well enough


What standards? The note you showed me on the verse page is not saying what you are saying, that a multipliet to one stat = all stats multiplied to the same multiplier, just to be clear, i am not denying that a character raising his ki = all stats grow, that much is kind of obvious since ki is the font of the raw power of the verse afterall


No it doesn't? it just says that having more ki gives you more stats


Again, that is not what the notes says


But following this logic, why wouldn't apply to nultipliers as well, following your rpg example, the grade 3 multiplier of power could just be a multiplier expecialized in power and not speed, since power is what it is stated to be multiplied


I asked more of, how can they be exeptions? Like, how can they "cheat" the system? I believe we are starting to derail this thread a bit, would you mind if we take this to one of our walls? I think that it would be better for the thread

It doesn't take much to interpret the note.

Statistics are bound by the size of one's ki, the inverse is also true, the size of one's ki is also influence by one's power, speed, etc. All stats must scale to each other via the common denominator, since in order to have ten magnitudes of power you need to have ten times your ki size, which by consequence means all other stats are also increased by the same level of magnitude.

I believe this has direct correlation to the subject matter, and the fact you're missing the point is really not helping either side. Let's use neutral math symbols to represent the equation:
Ki = z
ATK, DEF, SPEED = x, y, w

z = x, y, w
10z = 10x, 10y, 10w

For this reason,
10x = 10z, and
10z = 10x, 10y, 10w

Thus x = y = w

It's accepted that any power boost scale to overall stats because of the equation above, please let's not dive into denialism any further.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Bump we need more staff

 

[AguilaR202]

I agree with 500*500 for SSG

UIO and MUI have some issues though, MUI is SSB*SSB but UIO doesn’t have the same frame of reference afaik, even if he ends up stronger than Vegito from FT arc you have to account for power increases between that arc and the ToP to get a multiplier for omen.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Might aswell drop my agreement here. Prob should call more staff to evaluate

 

[Eseseso]

Since SSJ2 is 20x SSJ via the 2x multiplier SSJ2 has from Grade 3, then SSJG should be 1000 times 1000, right?

 

[TheGreatBanana]

I agree with the midball for SSG.

 

[TiltedFN]

BUMP, we should finish this, what is the current stance?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

BUMP, we should finish this, what is the current stance?

DDM agreed with SSJG being SSJG multplier being SSJG>SSJ3 Vegito>Vegito Base

SSJG > SSJ3 Vegito > Vegito Base (Pre Ritual since we’ve established Fusion multiplier Is dependent on the strength of the users)

I would like to remind people this isn’t a set multiplier you can downscale from since its a heavy lowball still and we just need 1 more staff agree

 

[TiltedFN]

okay so what would ssjg multiplier be? like the number

 

[Damage3245]

SSJG > SSJ3 Vegito

Remind me what the specific evidence is for this?

Because as far as I'm aware, Vegito has never once gone SSJ3 in canon.

For the moment put me down as a tentative disagree, but I'm open to changing.

 

[TiltedFN]

Remind me what the specific evidence is for this?

Because as far as I'm aware, Vegito has never once gone SSJ3 in canon.

For the moment put me down as a tentative disagree, but I'm open to changing.

why would vegito not be able to go ssj3?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Remind me what the specific evidence is for this?

Goku says fusion wouldn't at all make a difference in the conflict against Beerus

Because as far as I'm aware, Vegito has never once gone SSJ3 in canon.

For the moment put me down as a tentative disagree, but I'm open to changing.

Old Kai flatout confirms the fusion will still be able to go Super Saiyan 3 even if the fusees start in base, the reverse of what Goku was worried about prior

The fusion is also stated to have all abilities of the fusees

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Remind me what the specific evidence is for this?

Because as far as I'm aware, Vegito has never once gone SSJ3 in canon.

For the moment put me down as a tentative disagree, but I'm open to changing.

Fusion is a combination of 2 fusee’s it takes the traits of both users so if Goku can go SSJ Vegito can as well and fusion can even do things users wouldn’t be able to do individually with Gotenks

Do you disagree because you think there’s no reason Vegito should be able to go SSJ3?

 

[TiltedFN]

yeah gotenks was able to go ssj3, even though the boys can't individually, it's more than reasonable to say vegito can also go ssj3, because goku can also.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

If Gotenks, composed of two rookie ass kids who can only use Super Saiyan, can use SSJ3, then why can Vegito not when he's literally made up of someone than can use SSJ3?

 

[Damage3245]

Do you disagree because you think there’s no reason Vegito should be able to go SSJ3?

I want to avoid speculative reasoning as much as possible, especially when the multiplier figures get the range of millions of times.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree we shouldn't use SSJ3 for Vegito, heck maybe even not SSJ2.

500 for SSJ x 1000 for Vegito scaling above SSJ3 is fine.

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree we shouldn't use SSJ3 for Vegito, heck maybe even not SSJ2.

500 for SSJ x 1000 for Vegito scaling above SSJ3 is fine.

What is a valid reason that vegito wouldn't be able to go ssj3?

 

[Eseseso]

What is a valid reason that vegito wouldn't be able to go ssj3?

Because Vegeta never learned it.