Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

[Armorchompy]

So? That doesn't mean it's wrong or can't be used; that was just an example of a hgher-end feat. Not EVERY SINGLE feat that would probably be higher than Island or Small Country level in the franchise CANNOT be calculated.

I... I just explained why them being calculated or not doesn't really matter in regards to their validity. Putting a number on an outlier isn't going to stop it from being an outlier.

I thought you said you played a bit of the Super Mario games, Armor. There are multiple instances of POSSIBLE black holes in the Mario Galaxy series, and I didn't say you had to find the durability to tank them. You could find the speed and lifting strength needed to escape them, or the AP that certain characters like Bowser or Cackletta needed to create them. And there's sources both inside and/or outside of the games that states they're black holes.

Speed is always FTL if you're in the event horizon and it quite literally cannot be higher if outside so there is no point to me trying to figure that out for MFTL+ characters, lifting strength cannot be calculated and those that are created are, to my knowledge, not legitimate- we have strict standards that I have repeatedly pointed you to by now, and it seems to me that either you have not read them or refuse to acknowledge their contents, given that this is not the first time I explain to you that just being called a black hole is nowhere near enough.

Dude, you just answered your question. I mean, is that not why your wiki and you guys as calculation group members exists? The whole idea of your website is to pinpoint the accuracy of characters' stats, powers and abilities, no? If you're that much concerned about acceptability and accuracy, then all you have to do is follow the instructions on calculation instruction pages and ask some other calculation group members to make sure they're correct. That's why you have evaluations, is it not?

I do obviously strive for accuracy, and that often leads to having to reject calculations based on shoddy logic- such as the ones you're proposing right now.

Has the storm Dark Bowser made in BiS been calced?

I was going to do that but in the remake they just replace it with a generic tornado that isn't shown to reach the whole kingdom. Probably still tier 7 given that I think tornadoes are around that iirc, but nowhere near as impressive. Common 3DS BiS L

 

[Dust_Collector]

Common 3DS BiS L

Tbf it got the giant boss fights right, it's the only thing it got right but it's something

 

[Omnificence]

I... I just explained why them being calculated or not doesn't really matter in regards to their validity. Putting a number on an outlier isn't going to stop it from being an outlier.

Well, if that's the case, then all other verses like Marvel and DC with very few feats calculated above anything like tier 9 to 6 would be considered outliers. And speaking of outliers, why're you even giving Mario a "higher with Power Star" if the Power Star is considered an outlier?

lifting strength cannot be calculated and those that are created are, to my knowledge, not legitimate- we have strict standards that I have repeatedly pointed you to by now, and it seems to me that either you have not read them or refuse to acknowledge their contents, given that this is not the first time I explain to you that just being called a black hole is nowhere near enough.

Wait a second... if black holes that are created ARE NOT legitimate, why do we have a few accepted calculations of characters and objects creating them and added to their profiles?

I do obviously strive for accuracy, and that often leads to having to reject calculations based on shoddy logic- such as the ones you're proposing right now.

So what if my calculations are constantly getting rejected by you and others? At least not all of them were wrong on my first try when I performed some of them and actually proved to be useful for the wiki and got added to the RfCF page such as some of the speed calculations I did.

 

[StretchSebe]

I... I just explained why them being calculated or not doesn't really matter in regards to their validity. Putting a number on an outlier isn't going to stop it from being an outlier.

"Outlier.' When there are various of these level, across multiple games, and mostly condensed in the games after a certain point in time and in the series...

Ok man.

 

[Spilxson2]

Honestly there's outliers for both feats and anti feats when it comes to Mario. I'd ignore all of Mario Party since it's just meant to be a goofy game but even the other Mario games with stories have a ton of outliers in terms of feats and anti feats

 

[Armorchompy]

"Outlier.' When there are various of these level, across multiple games, and mostly condensed in the games after a certain point in time and in the series...

Yes, they were accepted to be outliers. By a majority of staff and a majority of normal users. You were there. And you- like everyone else on your side of the argument- failed to argue against it. You can disagree with the common consensus, obviously, but that doesn't change that it was the common consensus.

But if you think there are so many cosmic feats, I would appreciate if you or someone else gave me a list of the ones that you think are acceptable- preferably with scans and reasoning, given that despite me asking repeatedly, and despite the fact that many people claim they exist, I've never actually seen one.

Well, if that's the case, then all other verses like Marvel and DC with very few feats calculated above anything like tier 9 to 6 would be considered outliers.

I'm not going to respond to whataboutisms. If you want to learn why it isn't the same, make a downgrade thread and see how they cook you.

And speaking of outliers, why're you even giving Mario a "higher with Power Star" if the Power Star is considered an outlier?

The Power Stars 100% amp Mario and everyone else, what is considered an outlier is the 3-C rating itself.

Wait a second... if black holes that are created ARE NOT legitimate, why do we have a few accepted calculations of characters and objects creating them and added to their profiles?

Read the black hole standards. I'm tired of summarizing them to you just for you to misunderstand them, set some time aside and give them a thorough read.

So what if my calculations are constantly getting rejected by you and others? At least not all of them were wrong on my first try when I performed some of them and actually proved to be useful for the wiki and got added to the RfCF page such as some of the speed calculations I did.

I don't have an issue with you making calculations. I just have the task of rejecting ones that aren't acceptable, there's nothing personal about it.

 

[Omnificence]

Read the black hole standards. I'm tired of summarizing them to you just for you to misunderstand them, set some time aside and give them a thorough read.

Yeah, I read your black hole page, and it doesn't say anything about black holes created by characters or objects NOT being real. They only have to meet the requirements.

The Power Stars 100% amp Mario and everyone else, what is considered an outlier is the 3-C rating itself.

So lemme get this straight... we're not allowed to give Mario a 3-C key with a Power Star because it's an outlier yet it's perfectly fine to say he's higher with one? How does that make any sense, and why exactly is it an outlier? Why not just propose a different tier below 3-C but above tier 6 for Mario with a Power Star based upon a calculation like the constellation calculation?

But if you think there are so many cosmic feats, I would appreciate if you or someone else gave me a list of the ones that you think are acceptable- preferably with scans and reasoning, given that despite me asking repeatedly, and despite the fact that many people claim they exist, I've never actually seen one.

So characters such as Paper Mario and Rosalina creating realms with starry skies or Baby Bowser in Yoshi's Story transforming Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky don't count as cosmic or stellar feats?

 

[Armorchompy]

If you're going to be taking everything I say in bad faith or purposefully misinterpret it in an attempt to make it look bad, I'm quite frankly just not going to try to explain the simplest things to you anymore. If you have any questions, direct them to someone else who you have not completely alienated with your behavior. Just be very aware that Mario (and other verses I have no interest in revising) has gotten away with extremely flawed or laissez-faire reasoning and, on my watch, that is simply no longer going to be the case. So if you want to show me a feat, make sure you have a convincing reasoning ready as to why it's a real feat and why it scales to a character's AP- and I will not let anything along the lines of "Why shouldn't it" and "Other verses accept it" slide by unchallenged.

 

[SuperStar]

 

[DimeUhDozen]

eat your arms and then again

 

[StretchSebe]

Yes, they were accepted to be outliers. By a majority of staff and a majority of normal users. You were there. And you- like everyone else on your side of the argument- failed to argue against it. You can disagree with the common consensus, obviously, but that doesn't change that it was the common consensus.

If you're going to be taking everything I say in bad faith or purposefully misinterpret it in an attempt to make it look bad, I'm quite frankly just not going to try to explain the simplest things to you anymore. If you have any questions, direct them to someone else who you have not completely alienated with your behavior. Just be very aware that Mario (and other verses I have no interest in revising) has gotten away with extremely flawed or laissez-faire reasoning and, on my watch, that is simply no longer going to be the case. So if you want to show me a feat, make sure you have a convincing reasoning ready as to why it's a real feat and why it scales to a character's AP- and I will not let anything along the lines of "Why shouldn't it" and "Other verses accept it" slide by unchallenged.

So, since you're referring to the downgrade thread:

I specifically tried to go point by point in engaging with the thread starter, starting with your first of various points you insisted discussion be framed around for that thread. You didn't like me pointing that out about framing, but I still complied, and was willing to. You respond with indignation, and then say that 'Nobody said the Scarescraper was non-canon.' I go on to explain how framing is important, and how Scarescraper was disregarded for evidence despite being a deliberate, developer choice to be an in-universe location like a boss arena would be, and ask the difference. You engage a little with the importance of framing, but then make the point I was about to in Death of the Author: That we can't really draw higher 'intent' or 'context' from the creator of something in order to get a 'true' meaning or reason within a piece of media.

This is a well known concept, and has existed since the 60's. It's something I linked and named explicitly twice.

Then you claim that your first point was something I brought up? And I point out that, no, I'm just engaging with your first point? Then you tell me actually, your first point is 'objective,' and you 'will not be responding to this "point" again...'

Your own point. Your first point. Which is something a famous essay delves into the issues with...

To which you spend the rest of the thread disengaging, saying I was 'throwing accusations into the mix...' for pointing out that nobody can get into author's heads, let alone through the work they make (unless they comment on such). Which quickly devolves into straw manning me, following up by providing me a genetic fallacy. I don't think it was that 'rude' or 'out of line' at that point for me to point out your bad faith. In fact; I think it was pretty clear, all things considered, when you ran out of ideas to just shrug me off that you began saying things like you 'don't know how to respond' to try and dodge entirely, and 'nO u' me on being bad faith.

Again, I worked within the bounds of your thread, trying to argue against your points so specifically without doing any of that. Unless you seriously want to suggest you have some ability to know author intent that nobody else has, and that I was 'accusing' or 'insulting' you for saying otherwise.

Inb4: These are public forums, Armor. You publicly couldn't even deal with your first point being debated, and openly resorted to fallacies and dodging in less than like, ten responses.

"failed to argue against it" is cope, dude. Serious cope. Why even cope so hard when you got what you wanted?

Do you seriously believe your own hype so much you think you can just say whatever, wherever despite people being able to find and read what actually happened?

 

[Omnificence]

I'm not going to respond to whataboutisms. If you want to learn why it isn't the same, make a downgrade thread and see how they cook you.

If you're going to be taking everything I say in bad faith or purposefully misinterpret it in an attempt to make it look bad, I'm quite frankly just not going to try to explain the simplest things to you anymore. If you have any questions, direct them to someone else who you have not completely alienated with your behavior. Just be very aware that Mario (and other verses I have no interest in revising) has gotten away with extremely flawed or laissez-faire reasoning and, on my watch, that is simply no longer going to be the case. So if you want to show me a feat, make sure you have a convincing reasoning ready as to why it's a real feat and why it scales to a character's AP- and I will not let anything along the lines of "Why shouldn't it" and "Other verses accept it" slide by unchallenged.

By doing that, you're technically dodging my questions and failing to address my points; please don't do that. I'm not trying to use whataboutism here nor take anything you said in bad faith; I'm only trying to understand why you're not doing calculations that would place the cast at levels higher than tier 6. And I'm not trying to be rude, but I find the reasons you gave me for that are a little unconvincing. Also, I'm not planning on making any downgrade thread; I never made a downgrade thread. You also didn't have to use that terminology with me; it makes me think you believe I can't be successful in doing one when you say that. Plus, I didn't say anything about my behavior being alienated; in fact, throughout the entire time I've spoken to you in this thread, I've been as affable and sophisticated as I possibly could with you. I didn't insult you or say anything demeaning towards you.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

By doing that, you're technically dodging my questions and failing to address my points; please don't do that. I'm not trying to use whataboutism here nor take anything you said in bad faith; I'm only trying to understand why you're not doing calculations that would place the cast at levels higher than tier 6. And I'm not trying to be rude, but I find the reasons you gave me for that are a little unconvincing. Also, I'm not planning on making any downgrade thread; I never made a downgrade thread. You also didn't have to use that terminology with me; it makes me think you believe I can't be successful in doing one when you say that. Plus, I didn't say anything about my behavior being alienated; in fact, throughout the entire time I've spoken to you in this thread, I've been as affable and sophisticated as I possibly could with you. I didn't insult you or say anything demeaning towards you.

Because your feats aren't self evident.
Paper Mario starry sky feat looks like it's just them flipping a page and going somewhere else. You have to provide evidence of it being a creation feat.
Same with Rosalina feats from the sports game,it looks like she just warped into space/the observatory. You gotta prove it's a legit feat and why it should scale.

Also he never claimed that you planned to make a downgrade thread,he just said that if you did you would get cooked.

If you want to learn why it isn't the same, make a downgrade thread and see how they cook you.

 

[Armorchompy]

By doing that, you're technically dodging my questions and failing to address my points; please don't do that.

This is a general discussion, I'm not really beholden to addressing points as if it were a CRT but I would if I could, I just can't waste hours of my life clarifying things that I've already tried to explain.

 

[StretchSebe]

On the topic of re-upgrades, it's probably not a good idea for me to start up a discussion here so I'll just say

This is a general discussion, I'm not really beholden to addressing points as if it were a CRT but I would if I could, I just can't waste hours of my life clarifying things that I've already tried to explain.

You started this specific discussion. And as I illustrated, you don't even care to address points in your own CRT if you don't feel like it.

I agree it wasn't a good idea, and that we too can't waste hours of our lives clarifying things we've already tried to explain to you.

 

[Omnificence]

Also he never claimed that you planned to make a downgrade thread,he just said that if you did you would get cooked.

Still, I didn't find that terminology to be necessary; it makes me feel like I wouldn't succeed in doing so.

This is a general discussion, I'm not really beholden to addressing points as if it were a CRT but I would if I could, I just can't waste hours of my life clarifying things that I've already tried to explain.

In all fairness, StretchSebe is right; you did start this discussion on upgrades and downgrades here in this thread after all. And to be fair, you did tell me to look at the Black Hole standards page, and when you said black holes created AREN'T legitimate, I clarified that I didn't find that anywhere on the page.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

In all fairness, StretchSebe is right; you did start this discussion on upgrades and downgrades here in this thread after all.

No he didn't.

Is anyone currently making a counter-thread for the 6-C downgrade?

 

[Omnificence]

No he didn't.

Uh, he kinda did...

On the topic of re-upgrades, it's probably not a good idea for me to start up a discussion here so I'll just say- you're obviously free to make any threads of course but I would advise making sure you have new arguments rather than just trying to repeat things that were brought up already.

I will say that there's several cosmic feats that are generally (or officially) accepted that I've found have flaws that were never discussed, I didn't want to bring them up in the middle of the thread because I didn't want to add a new unrelated argument in the middle of a fairly long discussion, but that is something I will bring up if upgrade threads are made.

 

[Dust_Collector]

What would timed hits being able to hit multiple enemies count as? That'd be shock wave generation right? The game even has a little animation of what looks like a shock wave whenever any character does timed hits correctly.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Is anyone currently making a counter-thread for the 6-C downgrade?

I don't think so. We don't really have anything to make a counter-thread with atm. We would need several calc around a consistent tier to upgrade Mario any higher.

nop, theres some tier 4 feats that could be revised. And debunking “antifeats”

Literally 3 people talking about re-upgrades before he ever comments.

 

[StretchSebe]

What would timed hits being able to hit multiple enemies count as? That'd be shock wave generation right? The game even has a little animation of what looks like a shock wave whenever any character does timed hits correctly.

What's being referenced here? A move/attack from one of the RPG games I assume?

 

[Dust_Collector]

What's being referenced here? A move/attack from one of the RPG games I assume?

Yeah the new mechanic they added in the RPG remake, timed hits for normal attacks (Even unequipped) now also the ability to hit other enemies if timed correctly.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Literally 3 people talking about re-upgrades before he ever comments.

Ok? Whatever your point is

 

[Omnificence]

Literally 3 people talking about re-upgrades before he ever comments.

So what? You and him made the downgrade and went through with it, not us.

 

[StretchSebe]

Yeah the new mechanic they added in the RPG remake, timed hits for normal attacks (Even unequipped) now also the ability to hit other enemies if timed correctly.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah then: I guess if it displays a visible shockwave, and it does damage the other enemies in the battle, it would be shockwave generation.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

So what? You and him made the downgrade, not us.

I admit arguing about who started this conversation was dumb. But it didn't make the downgrade,I just voted in agreement with it.

 

[Omnificence]

I admit arguing about who started this conversation was dumb. But it didn't make the downgrade,I just voted in agreement with it.

Well, none of us voted in agreement with it, so I rest my case. And I thought you both said you don't like whataboutism.

 

[StretchSebe]

No he didn't.

I admit arguing about who started this conversation was dumb. But it didn't make the downgrade,I just voted in agreement with it.

Pedantic arguments. Fun.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

And I thought you both said you don't like whataboutism.

Whataboutism where? Seriously I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Omnificence]

Whataboutism where?

Right here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/super-mario-general-discussion-thread.126259/post-6187147

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Right here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/super-mario-general-discussion-thread.126259/post-6187147

Yeah that's them discussing re-upgrades before Armorchompy,they are the reason he started this conversation.
If those 3 comments weren't made this current discussion wouldn't exist.

 

[StretchSebe]

he started this conversation.

You're waffling. We're arguing nothing.

 

[Omnificence]

Yeah that's them discussing re-upgrades before Armorchompy,they are the reason he started this conversation.
If those 3 comments weren't made this current discussion wouldn't exist.

Proving my point exactly. If he didn't make the downgrade, these 3 comments wouldn't exist.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Upgrades, downgrades, I don't care 'bout any of that I only care about one thing and it's the OTP

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Upgrades, downgrades, I don't care 'bout any of that I only care about one thing and it's the OTP

Parents! Pay attention! Has anyone else noticed Super Mario Bros being woke!?!? First it was rainbow road in the new mario movie… Peach being bossy… And now bowser kissing Mario…? Nintendo is seriously trying to force an agenda down to the youth. From this point on Im NO LONGER buying Nintendo products!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dust_Collector]

Parents! Pay attention! Has anyone else noticed Super Mario Bros being woke!?!? First it was rainbow road in the new mario movie… Peach being bossy… And now bowser kissing Mario…? Nintendo is seriously trying to force an agenda down to the youth. From this point on Im NO LONGER buying Nintendo products!!!!!!!!!

They turned this game from Super Mario RPG to Super Mario SJW!! When will they stop forcing this WOKE agenda onto our children

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Proving my point exactly. If he didn't make the downgrade, these 3 comments wouldn't exist.

Then it ain't whataboutism. Whataboutism doesn't have cause and effect.

I didn't go "Look at Sonic and Kirby,you aren't trying to downgrade them. Why is that!?! Are you biased???". My point was "I don't think Armorchompy technically started this discussion because these people were the first to talk about re-upgrades today which then prompted him to make his first comment."

That is not what whataboutism is!

 

[thetechmaster36]

Spoiler: Mario RPG Remake Post-Game Spoilers

So I just finished the post-game stuff, and I gotta say, it was really fun! I wasn't expecting rematches against Jinx or the cake, but it was great to see them get some more love. And ohhh man, seeing Culex in 3D was the coolest thing ever, I gotta say. His boss fight is challenging too; Meteor bringing you down to 1 HP and making it so you NEED to outspeed the Crystals is a curveball for sure. Mallow, Geno, and Bowser getting comparable ultimate weapons to Mario and Peach is also really nice, meaning their damage outputs are significantly enhanced.

I do wish we had more rematches, though. I think maybe Croco and Valentina would have been excellent rematches.

 

[Omnificence]

Then it ain't whataboutism. Whataboutism doesn't have cause and effect.

I didn't go "Look at Sonic and Kirby,you aren't trying to downgrade them. Why is that!?! Are you biased???". My point was "I don't think Armorchompy technically started this discussion because these people were the first to talk about re-upgrades today which then prompted him to make his first comment."

That is not what whataboutism is!

Then maybe you and/or him should've calculated feats higher than tier 6 instead of going through with some downgrade, otherwise this discussion wouldn't have started

Sorry for the rudeness.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Alright can u two go to dms ion wanna see this escalate in a disucssion thread