Sun wukong/Journey to the west CRT

[Antvasima]

Ricsi and Zaratthustra:

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For now, we are waiting on the statement that each of worlds in the Dragon Palace is a space-time.

Otherwise: Remove Mid-Godly, unless new proof or explanation comes up remove Conceptual Manipulation, unless more specific examples come up reword the NPI, remove spatial manip (It is, at most, him beating up abstract beings)

For tier, if the Dragon Palace is legitimate, simply put 2-A. If it is not, High 3-A first key, and Low 2-C second.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I agree with Ricsi, I have the book at hand but it's 1400 pages so it's a lot to read to verify if the realms are space-times. Should wait till Uld and Greatsage can insert here more feats/statements.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the summary. That seems to make sense.

 

[Udlmaster]

For tier, if the Dragon Palace is legitimate, simply put 2-A. If it is not, High 3-A first key, and Low 2-C second.

It doesn't say they're different Time-Spaces, that's absolutely absurd to ask a 500 year old work of literature to talk about modern concepts like Time-Spaces.

It's why I didn't say it was 2-A or not, hence why "Possibly" was used.

As for the NPI, any damage they would deal with deal damage on that level, therefore requiring any regeneration from then would need Conceptual regeneration, High-Godly, you don't have to be erased entirely and regen from it as proof, you just need to regen the damage on that level, total erasure is just the plainest expression of it.

Conceptual Manipulation is there because many of the Gods are purely conceptual beings. Beings like the Points on the Compass are purely conceptual beings, of which beings like Yu Huang can depower and kill like he did with Sandy.

Also High 3-A is incredibly consistent, so as a basis, I think High 3-A should be used.

As for the "It's hyperbolic because transformations", from off the top of my head I can think of 3 times (I found 4) it's stated that Wukong has Infinite Transformations, not just 72, so it's obvious that it isn't hyperbolic.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Early the next morning Taizong announced to his officials at his dawn audience, “When we thought of the most profound and great achievement of our Younger Brother that we have no way of rewarding we were unable to sleep all night. We managed to draft a few colloquial sentences with which to express our thanks, but could not write them out. Officials of the Secretariat,” he ordered, “write them all down while we recite them to you.” This is the text he dictated: It is known that Heaven and Earth have their forms as a demonstration of how they provide the cover and support in which life is contained, whereas the four seasons are invisible, hiding the cold and heat with which they transform all creatures. Thus it is that by examining Heaven and looking at the Earth even the stupid can know about their origins, but few are the wise who can exhaust the numbers of the Negative and the Positive. Heaven and Earth, which are enveloped by the Negative and Positive, are easily understood because of their images, but the Negative and Positive are hard to fathom because they are formless. If images are clear and can be grasped even the stupid will not be confused; if forms are hidden and invisible even the wise will be at a loss.

The way of the Buddha honors emptiness, rides on the mystery and controls silence, yet saves all beings and dominates all regions. When it raises up the numinous there is nothing higher; when it represses its own divine strength there is nothing lower. When it is big it extends throughout the cosmos; when tiny it can be contained in a fraction of an inch. It does not die and it is not born; it endures a thousand aeons and is eternal. Half hidden and half manifest, it controls all blessings and makes them exist for ever. Mysterious is the wonderful Way; none of those who follow it know its limits. Silent is the flow of the Dharma: of those who grasp it none finds its source. So how can mortal fools in their stupidity follow it without doubts or delusion?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also Heaven itself who is much larger than the mortal realm which contains the infinite dragon realms while having its own specific time pace from the mortal realm was held in buddha's palm and viewed it like a disk that has an infinitesimal depth which should specifically bump him to low 1C with large size type 10 with scaling

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, things are not looking good in that case, are they? I am relatively sure that time passes equally in each of those infinite world, which makes the amount of worlds really a non-factor. That is High 3-A.

Just, no for the High-Godly based on that. Not without proof or statements. This was already brought up earlier with the soul side of things. You need statements that they destroy the concept of non-abtract beings, or NPI means nothing extra against a normal, physical enemy.
And also, are you trying to claim that Sun Wukong every attacks erasing someome on the most fundamental level would not be mentioned? Or him recovering from such a thing? That's just insanely reading into what is not there.
You only get regeneration for feats of regenerating. Grab statememts where he takes damage, and recovers. He was invulnerable for the most part to begin with.

You still need more proof for conceptual than names. Someone might be called the God of fire, and then show fire manipulation, but they will still not have conceptual control over fire.

For 13th's stuff, I know Buddha's are nonexistent. That changes little for everything else. And, as I don't recall Wukong fighting the stagions, I don't see how that quote means much? It says that Heaven and Eart can be observed physically, but that things such as winter and summer are invisible to the naked eye.

 

[Greatsage13th]

If JTTW never had conceptual entities. They wouldn't be able to have Transduality type 2 as well ya know

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not true. Duality at such level can exist without sentient beings embodying them.

 

[Antvasima]

Ricsi:

What do you think that we should do here in summary?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If there are no direct statements or showcases of them lacking physical form, I'd be fine putting a possibly for Non-Physical Interaction. I'm fine with the tiers right now, as well. The minor errors should be corrected, Mid-Godly regeneration and spatial manip removed.



For High-Godly, the very reason NPI was created was to not have what Udl is suggestion. Back when, hitting ghosts meant that every attack you perform harms souls, and so you can negate durability. If people you hit don't have durability negated? Well, that just means they resist.

This had obvious problems, and so NPI was created. Now, what Udl is suggesting is the above, but worse. If you erased someone on a conceptual level, it would be noticeable. Enough so to be mentioned at least once. If it is not, then assuming that is absolutely baseless.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I mean I agree if High godly was only for Buddhahood. But not giving it when he achieved Buddhahood which the buddhas , arhats , jade emperor , bodhisattvas ETC when you said they have it but not wukong despite having buddhahood seems slightly off.


Also there are weapons in the verse that embody concept of specific things and was always stated that it originated from Heaven. There is also a slight hint that the WUJI exists In the verse

As he wheeled his iron cudgel the Great Sage looked carefully at her and saw that one end of her club was thick and one end thin, just like the lead of a trip-hammer used for hulling with a mortar, so he gave a furious roar and shouted, “Beast! What’s that implement you’re holding? How dare you fight me with it? Surrender at once or I’ll smash your skull with a single blow from my cudgel.”

Grinding her teeth, the evil spirit replied, “You don’t know about this weapon of mine, so listen while I tell you:

Its immortal root was a piece of mutton-fat jade,
Which took countless years to be worked into shape.
It was already mine when chaos was separated;
When the primal disorder was sorted out I came first.
Its origins cannot be compared with mere mortal things;
Its nature has always belonged to the highest heaven.
Embodying the golden light and the four images
With the auspicious vapors of the Five Elements and the Three Primaries.

Also since Buddhas , arhats and bodhisattvas alike exist beyond the local space time of the verse. They could already be 2A to low 1C by viewing time and all of creation as a disk while holding it in their palms while in their physical manifestations which wouldn't change buddhahood wukong's tier while granting immortality type 9, large size type 10 and beyond dimensional existence type 1

 

[Antvasima]

Ricsi:

What do you think that we should do here in summary?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also if by chance you at that references to the wuji from the chinese philosophy can't be used then remove the one that is on Caine's profile where they have wuji and Taiji in their verse yet they get transduality type 4 from it

 

[Greatsage13th]

Seems like mariogoods isn't responding at all

 

[Antvasima]

@Mariogoods

Do you have any input for this thread?

 

[Udlmaster]

>Well, things are not looking good in that case, are they? I am relatively sure that time passes equally in each of those infinite world, which makes the amount of worlds really a non-factor. That is High 3-A.

No. They don't, 1 year passes for every day in the Heavenly Realms

>Just, no for the High-Godly based on that. Not without proof or statements.

There is proof, what do you mean? Did you read what I said?

>You need statements that they destroy the concept of non-abtract beings, or NPI means nothing extra against a normal, physical enemy.

Yeah, and I already told you; "Beings like the Points on the Compass are purely conceptual beings, of which beings like Yu Huang can depower and kill like he did with Sandy."

>And also, are you trying to claim that Sun Wukong every attacks erasing someome on the most fundamental level would not be mentioned?

A lot isn't mentioned, the argument of "why isn't it mentioned" isn't a debunk.

>It says that Heaven and Eart can be observed physically, but that things such as winter and summer are invisible to the naked eye.

And? These aren't debunks, you're just pointing out janky things about the story.

>f you erased someone on a conceptual level, it would be noticeable. Enough so to be mentioned at least once. If it is not, then assuming that is absolutely baseless.

It's not erasing, I have no idea where you got that idea from. Erasure is just the most extreme form. It's damage, like how you can damage the body, you can damage the soul and concepts, it ain't that deep fam.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with Risci regarding the Godly regeneration issue (at least the Eight Trigrams Furnace feat) and spatial manipulation removal.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree with Risci regarding the Godly regeneration issue (at least the Eight Trigrams Furnace feat) and spatial manipulation removal.

I would agree if the high godly was only specifically for buddhahood wukong and why remove spatial manipulation?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Then put him as plan 2-A.

As for the rest:
Saying a lot isn't said is not an excuse to handwave away the fact that it isn't ever aknowledged that supposedly a character's every attack causes conceptual destruction.
This has already been argues. NPI doesn't mean you destroy all that you can interact with in a person with physical body. The very existence of NPI as an ability was made to stop this very thing from doing.
I asked for proof of them being so. These beings can camp, wield swords and spears, eat and generally act as humans. Saying that is just the story "being wonky" doesn't work unless there is proof they are abstract, which is what I asked for. Not a claim (from you), but a direct statement or showing of such a thing beyond a name or title.


And for the last part, firstly: High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.
It's not High-Godly if they are not erased.

Secondly, you cannot claim it damages the soul and very concept of a character just because of NPI.


For 13th, even assuming you prove the compass thing, that is simply an extension of NPI and redundant otherwise.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Then put him as plan 2-A.

As for the rest:
Saying a lot isn't said is not an excuse to handwave away the fact that it isn't ever aknowledged that supposedly a character's every attack causes conceptual destruction.
This has already been argues. NPI doesn't mean you destroy all that you can interact with in a person with physical body. The very existence of NPI as an ability was made to stop this very thing from doing.
I asked for proof of them being so. These beings can camp, wield swords and spears, eat and generally act as humans. Saying that is just the story "being wonky" doesn't work unless there is proof they are abstract, which is what I asked for. Not a claim (from you), but a direct statement or showing of such a thing beyond a name or title.


And for the last part, firstly: High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.
It's not High-Godly if they are not erased.

Secondly, you cannot claim it damages the soul and very concept of a character just because of NPI.


For 13th, even assuming you prove the compass thing, that is simply an extension of NPI and redundant otherwise.

I mean I agree if High godly was only for Buddhahood. But not giving it when he achieved Buddhahood which the buddhas , arhats , jade emperor , bodhisattvas ETC when you said they have it but not wukong despite having buddhahood seems slightly off.


Also there are weapons in the verse that embody concept of specific things and was always stated that it originated from Heaven. There is also a slight hint that the WUJI exists In the verse

As he wheeled his iron cudgel the Great Sage looked carefully at her and saw that one end of her club was thick and one end thin, just like the lead of a trip-hammer used for hulling with a mortar, so he gave a furious roar and shouted, “Beast! What’s that implement you’re holding? How dare you fight me with it? Surrender at once or I’ll smash your skull with a single blow from my cudgel.”

Grinding her teeth, the evil spirit replied, “You don’t know about this weapon of mine, so listen while I tell you:

Its immortal root was a piece of mutton-fat jade,
Which took countless years to be worked into shape.
It was already mine when chaos was separated;
When the primal disorder was sorted out I came first.
Its origins cannot be compared with mere mortal things;
Its nature has always belonged to the highest heaven.
Embodying the golden light and the four images
With the auspicious vapors of the Five Elements and the Three Primaries.

Also since Buddhas , arhats and bodhisattvas alike exist beyond the local space time of the verse. They could already be 2A to low 1C by viewing time and all of creation as a disk while holding it in their palms while in their physical manifestations which wouldn't change buddhahood wukong's tier while granting immortality type 9, large size type 10 and beyond dimensional existence type 1

I'm still waiting for your reply on this specific one

 

[Udlmaster]

It doesn't matter if the story doesn't hold your hand and scream into your face that they're being conceptually erased, the document isn't a shonen anime and you shouldn't treat it as such, being able to make a logical conclusion is all we need.

Also, you seemed to ignore that last part; "or conceptual/information destruction."

And I can because I showed you how it would logically.

>These beings can camp, wield swords and spears, eat and generally act as humans. Saying that is just the story "being wonky" doesn't work unless there is proof they are abstract, which is what I asked for.

Have you even bothered to read any Chinese mythology to know that the beings beyond all dualities can eat, sleep and so on, this is a non-argument because you have no idea what you're talking about in reference to a piece of Chinese literature about Chinese mythology.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Buddahhood is nonexistence. They do not regenerate from erasure, they exist despite it. See Monika, who also got erased to an equal degree, but still doesn't have High-Godly but instead NPI.

And Udl, I am saying your "logical conclusions" are baseless and not applicable. We do not, and cannot assume conceptual destruction based on NPI with concepts, again, this is why NPI even was created.

Chinese Mythology as a whole doesn't matter or apply here at large, but more importantly, Buddha's have direct explanations and in-depth statements that justify the contradictions.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It doesn't matter if the story doesn't hold your hand and scream into your face that they're being conceptually erased, the document isn't a shonen anime and you shouldn't treat it as such, being able to make a logical conclusion is all we need.

Also, you seemed to ignore that last part; "or conceptual/information destruction."

And I can because I showed you how it would logically.

>These beings can camp, wield swords and spears, eat and generally act as humans. Saying that is just the story "being wonky" doesn't work unless there is proof they are abstract, which is what I asked for.

Have you even bothered to read any Chinese mythology to know that the beings beyond all dualities can eat, sleep and so on, this is a non-argument because you have no idea what you're talking about in reference to a piece of Chinese literature about Chinese mythology.

Yep, throughout it's mythology despite all the gods don't really need any natural nutrients. They still eat, sleep ETC despite having no necessary need to

 

[Ogbunabali]

>Infinite Dragon Realms

I'm vehemently against using this for High 3-A. It's only mentioned in an in verse prose, which are littered with metaphors and flowery language and shouldn't be taken literally at all. Not to mention the word "infinite" is used extremely liberally throughout the various poems inside the story, heck at one point it even says that Sun Wukong had infinite transformations which is blatantly and demonstrably false.

 

[Udlmaster]

How are my logical conclusions baseless, I've given you examples where they interact with inherently Conceptual beings and can interact on that level and how beings like Yu Huang can demote the Gods who are conceptual beings.

And what do you mean that Chinese Mythology has no relevance to Journey to the West? The story is about Chinese Mythological beings

>Infinite Dragon Realms

I'm vehemently against using this for High 3-A. It's only mentioned in an in verse prose, which are littered with metaphors and flowery language and shouldn't be taken literally at all. Not to mention the word "infinite" is used extremely liberally throughout the various poems inside the story, heck at one point it even says that Sun Wukong had infinite transformations which is blatantly and demonstrably false.

No, it's not, your claim is demonstrably false, as proven above, the preponderance of evidence proves he has Infinite Transformations, also you have to prove that Infinite here isn't literal in reference to the Dragon Realms.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It was mentioned 4 times throughout the story @ogbunabali

 

[QuasiYuri]

Risci ask for the feats. Giving example without giving the feats themselves is the problem. Also interacting with conceptual beings is just NPI.


For the transformation thing; an hyperbole being repeted 4 times in a very long novel is not the best proof; when an exact number was given in the same story.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

How are my logical conclusions baseless, I've given you examples where they interact with inherently Conceptual beings and can interact on that level and how beings like Yu Huang can demote the Gods who are conceptual beings.

Neither of those are proof of destroying concepts. NPI was originally created specifically because it was assumed that people that can harm spectres, wraiths, ghost and other soul like beings would harm the soul of those they hit, which was disagreed with. A person who can hit souls won't destroy the soul of a person with a body with their hits without proof. A person who can hit abstract beings won't destroy the concept of a person with a body with their hits without proof.

 

[Greatsage13th]

His transformations was describe as infinite twice, inumerable once and boundless once. Also we are suppose to look at it from an author's prespective and the flowery language there is what that defines everything in the verse alike

 

[Udlmaster]

Flowery Language is an unprovable claim and shouldn't be used unless you can dig the author out of their grave and have them say if they were being literal or poetic.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also....@ricsi-viragosi

I'm still waiting for your reply

I mean I agree if High godly was only for Buddhahood. But not giving it when he achieved Buddhahood which the buddhas , arhats , jade emperor , bodhisattvas ETC when you said they have it but not wukong despite having buddhahood seems slightly off.


Also there are weapons in the verse that embody concept of specific things and was always stated that it originated from Heaven. There is also a slight hint that the WUJI exists In the verse

As he wheeled his iron cudgel the Great Sage looked carefully at her and saw that one end of her club was thick and one end thin, just like the lead of a trip-hammer used for hulling with a mortar, so he gave a furious roar and shouted, “Beast! What’s that implement you’re holding? How dare you fight me with it? Surrender at once or I’ll smash your skull with a single blow from my cudgel.”

Grinding her teeth, the evil spirit replied, “You don’t know about this weapon of mine, so listen while I tell you:

Its immortal root was a piece of mutton-fat jade,
Which took countless years to be worked into shape.
It was already mine when chaos was separated;
When the primal disorder was sorted out I came first.
Its origins cannot be compared with mere mortal things;
Its nature has always belonged to the highest heaven.
Embodying the golden light and the four images
With the auspicious vapors of the Five Elements and the Three Primaries.

Also since Buddhas , arhats and bodhisattvas alike exist beyond the local space time of the verse. They could already be 2A to low 1C by viewing time and all of creation as a disk while holding it in their palms while in their physical manifestations which wouldn't change buddhahood wukong's tier while granting immortality type 9, large size type 10 and beyond dimensional existence type 1

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

My bad, missed that quote. The fact that the weapon embodying something is so worked up an special is a little weird if everyone is, but sure, that's alright for NPI.

But conceptual destruction through NPI is a no.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

As for the phonetic part... that is a standard that would be so goddamn abused throughout the wiki if we took that.

And what, of the half a hundred times infinite was used in Journey to The West, almost all refer to characteristics like Charisma and Wisdom and Beauty.

I guess we cannot prove it was flower, and should take those times literally?

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Flowery language is an unprovable claim"
Excuse me but wtf?
I'm pretty sure differenciating litteral from metaphorical is something anyone attending high school is supposed to learn.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I'm at work right now so I cant say all I want now but I say this again. Bring the feats/statements and post them. Also it would help if when you post them, you'll make them be in a quote or change the text color so It can be easier to see which is your Words and which is the statement/feat.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That weapon was stated to originate from chaos which is referencing to the wuji. Which was was the primordial state of the universe where concept and dualities hasn't been developed at that point of time and since this weapon was forged out of it. It would have Transduality type 4

My bad, missed that quote. The fact that the weapon embodying something is so worked up an special is a little weird if everyone is, but sure, that's alright for NPI.

But conceptual destruction through NPI is a no.

Also I'm still waiting for you to reply the other half of the quote

 

[Greatsage13th]

As for the phonetic part... that is a standard that would be so goddamn abused throughout the wiki if we took that.

And what, of the half a hundred times infinite was used in Journey to The West, almost all refer to characteristics like Charisma and Wisdom and Beauty.

I guess we cannot prove it was flower, and should take those times literally?

There isn't a more than 20 statements that talks about a certain character's charisma and most of them are focused on the verse and it's natural laws and concepts

Also this isn't abused on the wiki as much as you think it is since this verse is based on classical chinese literature and not some shounen or riordan or scp written. Most of the feats are legit for the most part as it's not out of context like how it was represented ages ago.

And of course there are a few things that can't be taken seriously. Such as wukong losing to demons that can barely destroy planets