Sun wukong/Journey to the west CRT

[Greatsage13th]

I'll respond when you list up everything you want to change, and why.

Okay I'll try my best to say it all in one comment.

Okay as for him being only tier 5 at best there can be a change for that.

The statement where wukong says that The black sky was supported by the pillars of creation would not make any sense. Because if the edge of all things was contained by a dark vapour sky the milky way would have not been seen above the heaven by buddha Tagatha as the milky way is a part of the mortal realm and theoretically would be impossible for it to exist higher than 33 levels of heavens that encompass the mortal realm because that would mean that the heavens encompasses the mortal realm and things such as stars , galaxies and the pillars of creations would exist higher than the 33 layers of heaven and therefore would mean that wukong either the cosmology is just isn't well defined or wukong can leap distances that dwarfs trillions of light years or he simply broke physics with sheer speed

And as for some other things I want to say

Wukong also has immeasurable speed when he exists beyond linear space-time as a whole.

And I would propose multiversal+ range for wukong via the manipulation of the infinite multitude of dualities that fluctuates countlessly in every moment.

 

[Mariogoods]

I cannot post the original text directly but there are something I should say before I'm able to do so.

First, Sun Wukong, in Buddha's palm, does not leap only one time. He is using his full speed (or at least the plot says) and leap like a spin dash.

Second, I have suggested immesureable speed for normal Sun Wukong and reasons have been given in previous reply. It is extremely important since every gods apply to that feat.

Third, when Sun Wukong is swinged by the Iron Fan, he is swinged to possibly 8/10 one leap length but is clear far from the end of the universe.

Fourth, I have posted Sun Wukong lighting the "void" feat which is performed even before he become Buddha.

I'll post original text if I had enough time, but I'm sorry it's not today.

 

[Zaratthustra]

@Sage,

Ricsi means to make the entire list of changes and post it, not just one thing. At the same time, sorry for saying this but organize your phrasing structure better. It makes hard to understand a thing as you unite multiple ideas, sentences into one phrase. Take your time, build your justifications, organize them in a way that things aren't confusing. You need to learn to structure things and organize them.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Sage,

Ricsi means to make the entire list of changes and post it, not just one thing. At the same time, sorry for saying this but organize your phrasing structure better. It makes hard to understand a thing as you unite multiple ideas, sentences into one phrase. Take your time, build your justifications, organize them in a way that things aren't confusing. You need to learn to structure things and organize them.

Ummm...actually that is the only thing I wanted to say....so technically yes. there are nothing else that i could propose.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I cannot post the original text directly but there are something I should say before I'm able to do so.

First, Sun Wukong, in Buddha's palm, does not leap only one time. He is using his full speed (or at least the plot says) and leap like a spin dash.

Second, I have suggested immesureable speed for normal Sun Wukong and reasons have been given in previous reply. It is extremely important since every gods apply to that feat.

Third, when Sun Wukong is swinged by the Iron Fan, he is swinged to possibly 8/10 one leap length but is clear far from the end of the universe.

Fourth, I have posted Sun Wukong lighting the "void" feat which is performed even before he become Buddha.

I'll post original text if I had enough time, but I'm sorry it's not today.

Wait where is the feat where wukong lighted the void

 

[Mariogoods]

Wait where is the feat where wukong lighted the void

#298

 

[Greatsage13th]

#298

With no specified width and height I don't think it can be calced

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'll respond when you list up everything you want to change, and why.

Okay I'll try my best to say it all in one comment.

Okay as for him being only tier 5 at best there can be a change for that.

The statement where wukong says that The black sky was supported by the pillars of creation would not make any sense. Because if the edge of all things was contained by a dark vapour sky the milky way would have not been seen above the heaven by buddha Tagatha as the milky way is a part of the mortal realm and theoretically would be impossible for it to exist higher than 33 levels of heavens that encompass the mortal realm because that would mean that the heavens which encompasses the mortal realm are just pocket dimensions since things such as stars , galaxies and the pillars of creations that are viewed from heaven were viewed by looking up rather than looking down which would mean that the 33 layers of heaven as a whole are large pocket dimensions which would mean that the cosmology of JTTW contains a universe, several large pocket dimensions and an infinite multitude of dualities that are transcended by buddha.

And as for some other things I want to say

Wukong also has immeasurable speed when he exists beyond linear space-time as a whole.

And I would propose multiversal+ range for wukong via the manipulation of the infinite multitude of dualities that fluctuates countlessly in every moment. Which would make him a smurf in more ways than one.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Wukong's powers are fine for he most part, but it should be noted that he also has Social Influencing and he should have a resistance to pain due to feeling no discomfort in pulling out his own guts. He should also have Invulnerability listed in his powers and abilities section since even mystical weapons used by demons broke on his body. He should also have resistance to immortality negation, seeing how none of the gods could strip him of his immortality and he even survived in the furnace that could kill gods and immortals (though his resistance to fire likely helped). He should also have minor weather manipulation since he and the demon king blotted out the sky with fog. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he able to summon local deities?

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Bump.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Ricsi-viragosi

I think that the statement used for the dragon realm unreliable. Because it turns out there are many variants of the English translation which non are official

While the one that is used to debunk the infinite dragon realms are from one of the many english translations.

I found another english translation that states that the dragon realms are as innumerable as the sand of ganges.

 

[Mariogoods]

@Ricsi-viragosi

I think that the statement used for the dragon realm unreliable. Because it turns out there are many variants of the English translation which non are official

While the one that is used to debunk the infinite dragon realms are from one of the many english translations.

I found another english translation that states that the dragon realms are as innumerable as the sand of ganges.

That's how different translators interrupt the term "法界". However, as a clear Buddhism term, it can become too countless. (While I think numbers appeared in JttW are mostly meaning "countless", "法界" is certainly not included in it. Also, JttW has inconsistency, but it is better than put all myth together)

Also, please give me where are new sentences which needs my check since I have free time now?

 

[Greatsage13th]

That's how different translators interrupt the term "法界". However, as a clear Buddhism term, it can become too countless. (While I think numbers appeared in JttW are mostly meaning "countless", "法界" is certainly not included in it. Also, JttW has inconsistency, but it is better than put all myth together)

Also, please give me where are new sentences which needs my check since I have free time now?

This one

 

[Mariogoods]

He became a hundred thousand feet tall; his head was as big as a mountain, his waist like a range of hills, his eyes flashed like lightning, his mouth seemed to be a bowl of blood, and his teeth were as swords and halberds; the cudgel in his hands reached up to the Thirty−third Heaven and down to the Eighteenth Hell. The tigers, leopards and wolves, the beasts of the mountain, and the seventy−two monster kings all kowtowed and

他就長的高萬丈，頭如泰山 ，腰如峻嶺，眼如閃電，口似血盆，牙如劍戟﹔手中那棒，上抵三十三天，下至 十八層地獄。把些虎豹狼蟲、滿山群怪、七十二洞妖王，都諕得磕頭禮拜，戰兢 兢魄散魂飛。

After the check, the translation has some problem. First, "頭如泰山" is translated by the translator as "as big as a mountain". The more accurate translation is "as big as Mount Tai". Mount Tai is considered countless high in ancient China and the detailed information about Mount Tai can be found in Wikipedia.

Maybe it is more convenient for me to post the text to the forum directly.

 

[Greatsage13th]

After the check, the translation has some problem. First, "頭如泰山" is translated by the translator as "as big as a mountain". The more accurate translation is "as big as Mount Tai". Mount Tai is considered countless high in ancient China and the detailed information about Mount Tai can be found in Wikipedia.

Maybe it is more convenient for me to post the text to the forum directly.

Guess you could potentially find feat that would raise wukong's tier beyond just 5B

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Ricsi-viragosi

It's been 2 days

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Once again, pain tolerance is not resistance to pain, and what he does is not enough for social influencing, especially with how bad he is at keeping his cool.

His first key stays its current tier at Low 7-B because that is what destroying a mountain is, and 7-A for KE and mountain bashing being casual.

His second key is "Unknown, possibly Low 2-C"

His speed is immeasurable, but only second key. His abilities that allow him to move have a specific, finite number on them, and crossing from one world to another is not enough to ignore that.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Once again, pain tolerance is not resistance to pain, and what he does is not enough for social influencing, especially with how bad he is at keeping his cool.

His first key stays its current tier at Low 7-B because that is what destroying a mountain is, and 7-A for KE and mountain bashing being casual.

His second key is "Unknown, possibly Low 2-C"

His speed is immeasurable, but only second key. His abilities that allow him to move have a specific, finite number on them, and crossing from one world to another is not enough to ignore that.

Maybe give him Multiversal+ range a nice he could manipulate an infinite multitude of dualities that fluctuates countlessly in every moment

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not Multiversal+ range.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That is not Multiversal+ range.

Even if the duality is infinite in nature?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Even then.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Even then.

If something is infinite and beyond space-time itself it should have been 2A range or 2B. Of course not everything is treated like this but....the concepts that are infinite within the scope of this dual system can 'somewhat' qualify.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Once again, pain tolerance is not resistance to pain, and what he does is not enough for social influencing, especially with how bad he is at keeping his cool.

His first key stays its current tier at Low 7-B because that is what destroying a mountain is, and 7-A for KE and mountain bashing being casual.

His second key is "Unknown, possibly Low 2-C"

His speed is immeasurable, but only second key. His abilities that allow him to move have a specific, finite number on them, and crossing from one world to another is not enough to ignore that.

What about the other stuff (minor weather manipulation, summoning of local deities, invulnerability, and resistance to immortality negation)?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, that is not how we treat things for large size.

Invulnerability was accepted, weather manipulation is fine, the summoning needs proof. Resistance to immortality negation is a no.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No, that is not how we treat things for large size.

Invulnerability was accepted, weather manipulation is fine, the summoning needs proof. Resistance to immortality negation is a no.

What large size?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Large size type 10. What you have is not enough for such a high range.

 

[Mariogoods]

Sun Wukong should have Astral Projection (In fact, it may be the basis of gods):

正講時，又見小妖來報：「湯滾了。」老怪傳令叫抬。眾妖一齊上手，將八戒 抬在底下一格，沙僧抬在二格。行者估著來抬他，他就脫身道：「此燈光前好 做手腳。」拔下一根毫毛，吹口仙氣，叫：「變！」即變做一個行者，綑了麻 繩。將真身出神，跳在半空裏，低頭看著。那群妖那知真假，見人就抬，把個 假行者抬在上三格；才將唐僧揪翻倒綑住，抬上第四格。乾柴架起，烈火氣焰 騰騰。

As they were talking a junior devil came in to report that the water was boiling. The senior chief ordered that
the monks be carried in, and all the demons acted together to carry Pig to the lowest shelf of the steamer and
Friar Sand to the second shelf.
Guessing that they would be coming for him next Brother Monkey freed himself and said, "This lamplight is
just right for some action." He then pulled out a hair, blew on it with magic breath, called, "Change!" and
turned it into another Monkey he tied up with the hempen rope while extracting his real self in spirit form to
spring into mid−air, look down and watch. Not realizing his deception, the crowd of demons picked up the
false Monkey they saw and carried him to the third tray of the steamer, near the top. Only then did they drag
the Tang Priest to the ground, tie him up, and put him into the fourth tray. As the dry firewood was stacked up
a fierce fire blazed.

(Chap 77)

Sun Wukong should have everything a spirit could do in JttW verse.

I have just find the summon stuff. In Chapter 77:

好行者，在空中捻著訣，念一聲「唵藍淨法界，乾元亨利貞」的咒語，拘喚得 北海龍王早至。只見那雲端裏一朵烏雲，應聲高叫道：「北海小龍敖順叩頭。」 行者道：「請起，請起。無事不敢相煩。今與唐師父到此，被毒魔拿住，上鐵 籠蒸哩。你去與我護持護持，莫教蒸壞了。」龍王隨即將身變作一陣冷風，吹 入鍋下，盤旋圍護，更沒火氣燒鍋，他三人方不損命。

The splendid Great Sage made a hand−spell in mid−air, said the magic words "Om the blue pure dharma
world; true is the eternal beneficence of Heaven," and summoned the Dragon King of the Northern Ocean to
him.
A black cloud appeared among the other clouds, and from it there came at once an answering shout, "Ao
Shun, the humble dragon of the Northern Ocean, kowtows in homage."
"Arise, arise," said Monkey. "I would not have ventured to trouble you for nothing. I've now got this far with
my master the Tang Priest. He's been captured by vicious monsters and put into an iron steamer to be cooked.
Go and protect him for me and don't let the steam harm him." The dragon king at once turned himself into a
cold wind that blew underneath the cooking pot and coiled around to shield it from all the heat of the fire.
Thus were the three of them saved from death.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Both are fine, but as said before, I would appreciate if you made a full summary of abilities to add instead if finding a few at a time.

 

[Mariogoods]

Astral Projection evidence (you can even find other abilities in the evidence)

二仙童問得是實，越加毀罵。就恨得個大聖鋼牙咬響，火眼睜圓，把條金箍棒揝 了又揝，忍了又忍道：「這童子只說當面打人也罷，受他些氣兒。送他個絕後 計，教他大家都吃不成。」好行者，把腦後的毫毛拔了一根，吹口仙氣，叫： 「變！」變做個假行者，跟定唐僧，陪著悟能、悟淨，忍受著道童嚷罵。他的真 身出一個神，縱雲頭，跳將起去，徑到人參園裏，掣金箍棒，往樹上乒乓一下， 又使個推山移嶺的神力，把樹一推推倒。可憐葉落枒開根出土，道人斷絕草還 丹。那大聖推倒樹，在枝兒上尋果子，那裏得有半個。原來這寶貝遇金而落，他 的棒兩頭是金裹的，況鐵又是五金之類，所以敲著就振下來﹔既下來，又遇土而 入。因此上邊再沒一個果子。他道：「好，好，好！大家散火。」他收了鐵棒， 徑往前來，把毫毛一抖，收上身來。那些人肉眼凡胎，看不明白。

Now that they knew that the fruit really had been stolen, the two boys started to abuse them even more foull
The Great Sage ground his teeth of steel in his fury, glaring with his fiery eyes and tightening his grip on h
iron cudgel. "Damn those Taoist boys," he thought when he could restrain himself no longer. "If they'd hit
we could have taken it, but now they're insulting us to our faces like this, I'll finish their tree off, then none
them can have any more fruit."
Splendid Monkey. He pulled a hair out from the back of his head, breathed a magic breath on it, sa
"Change," and turned it into an imitation Monkey who stayed with the Tang Priest, Pig and Friar Sand
endure the cursing and swearing of the Taoist boys, while the real Monkey used his divine powers to leap o
of the hall by cloud. He went straight to the garden and struck the manfruit tree with his gold−banded cudge
Then he used his supernatural strength that could move mountains to push the tree over with a single shov
The leaves fell, the branches splayed out, and the roots came out of the ground. The Taoists would have n
more of their "Grass−returning Cinnabar." After pushing the tree over Monkey searched through the branch
for manfruit, but he could not find a single one. These treasures dropped at the touch of metal, and
Monkey's cudgel was ringed with gold, while being made of iron, another of the five metals, one tap from
brought them all tumbling down, and when they hit the ground they went straight in, leaving none on the tre
"Great, great, great," he said, "that'll make them all cool down." He put the iron cudgel away, went back to t
front of the temple, shook the magic hair, and put it back on his head. The others did not see what w
happening as they had eyes of mortal flesh.

(In Chapter 25)
It should be noted that "推山移嶺的神力" is translated as "his supernatural strength" while the original sentence is literally "the supernatural strength which push and move mountains". While you may think "well it is just a tree, nothing special". Then:

卻說這座山名喚萬壽山。山中有一座觀，名喚五莊觀。觀裏有一尊仙，道號鎮元 子，混名與世同君。那觀裏出一般異寶，乃是混沌初分，鴻濛始判，天地未開之 際，產成這顆靈根。蓋天下四大部洲，惟西牛賀洲五莊觀出此，喚名草還丹，又 名人參果。三千年一開花，三千年一結果，再三千年才得熟，短頭一萬年方得吃 。似這萬年，只結得三十個果子。果子的模樣，就如三朝未滿的小孩相似，四肢 俱全，五官咸備。人若有緣，得那果子聞了一聞，就活三百六十歲﹔吃一個，就 活四萬七千年。

This mountain was called the Mountain of Infinite Longevity, and there was a Taoist temple on it called the
Wuzhuang Temple. In this temple lived an Immortal whose Taoist name was Zhen Yuan Zi. He was also
known as Conjoint Lord of the Age. The temple had a rare treasure, a miraculous tree that had been formed
when primeval chaos was first being divided, before the separation of Heaven and Earth. In the four great
continents of the world, only the Western Continent of Cattle−gift's Wuzhuang Temple had this treasure that
was known as "Grass−returning Cinnabar" or "manfruit." It took three thousand years to blossom, three
thousand years to form the fruit, and another three thousand years for the fruit to ripen, so that very nearly ten
thousand years had to pass before the fruit could be eaten. Only thirty fruit were formed each ten thousand
years, and they were shaped just like a newborn baby, complete with limbs and sense organs. Anyone whose
destiny permitted him to smell one would live for three hundred and sixty years, and if you ate one you would
live for forty−seven thousand years.

(In Chap 24)

Also, there is a theory which suggested that Sun Wukong before Buddha palm and after Buddha palm are two different story system.

 

[Mariogoods]

Both are fine, but as said before, I would appreciate if you made a full summary of abilities to add instead if finding a few at a time.

JttW has an ambiguous consistency and the same skill may be nerved or buffed in different chapter. Maybe we could only follow "best showing" unofficial guideline. JttW is a famous attempt to combine these stories, but without any quality control. If you are not in-depth, you can easily miss some of his skills.

 

[Antvasima]

Ricsi-viragosi and Zaratthustra:

What do you think that we should do here in summary?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ricsi-viragosi and Zaratthustra:

What do you think that we should do here in summary?

I will update a blog with Wukong's profile soon, then link it again to be checked.

 

[Mariogoods]

While I'm interested in finding his new skills, I'd like to find some more solid evidence for his established skills.
Air Manipulation:

(Chapter 2)

好猴王，念聲咒語，駕陣狂風，雲頭落下。叫：「孩兒們睜眼。」眾猴腳屣實地 ，認得是家鄉，個個歡喜，都奔洞門舊路。

Splendid Monkey King. He recited a spell, took them riding on a hurricane, then brought the cloud down to
the ground. "Open your eyes and look, children," he shouted. As soon as the monkeys' feet touched the ground they
recognized their home.

(Chapter 3)

「這裏定有現成的
兵器，我待下去買他幾件，還不如使個神通覓他幾件倒好。」他就捻起訣來，念
動咒語，向巽地上吸一口氣，呼的吹將去，便是一陣風，飛沙走石，好驚人也：
炮雲起處蕩乾坤，黑霧陰霾大地昏。
江海波翻魚蟹怕，山林樹折虎狼奔。
諸般買賣無商旅，各樣生涯不見人。
殿上君王歸內院，階前文武轉衙門。
千秋寶座都吹倒，五鳳高樓幌動根。

風起處，驚散了那傲來國君王，三街六巿，都慌得關門閉戶，無人敢走。悟空才 按下雲頭，徑闖入朝門裏，直尋到兵器館、武庫中，打開門扇看時，那裏面無數 器械：刀、槍、劍、戟、斧、鉞、毛、鐮、鞭、鈀、撾、簡、弓、弩、叉、矛， 件件俱備。一見甚喜道：「我一人能拿幾何？還使個分身法搬將去罷。」好猴王 ，即拔一把毫毛，入口嚼爛，噴將出去，念動咒語，叫聲：「變！」變做千百個 小猴，都亂搬亂搶，有力的拿五七件，力小的拿三二件，盡數搬個罄淨。徑踏雲 頭，弄個攝法，喚轉狂風，帶領小猴，俱回本處。

"There must be ready−made weapons here," Sun Wukong thought, "and getting a few by magic would be
much better than buying them." So he made a magic with his fist and said the words of the spell, sucked in
some air from the Southeast, and blew it hard out again. It turned into a terrifying gale carrying sand and
stones with it.
Where the thunderclouds rise the elements are in chaos;
Black fogs thick with dust cloak the earth in darkness.
Boiling rivers and seas terrify the crabs and fish;
As trees are snapped off in mountain forests tigers and wolves flee.
No business is done in any branch of commerce;
And no one is working at any kind of trade.
In the palace the king has gone to his inner quarters;
And the officials in front of the steps have returned to their offices.
The thrones of princes are all blown over;
Towers of five phoenixes are shaken to their foundations.
Where the storm blew, the prince of Aolai fled in terror, and gates and doors were shut in the streets and
markets. Nobody dared to move outside. Sun Wukong landed his cloud and rushed straight through the gates
of the palace to the arsenal and the military stores, opened the doors, and saw countless weapons: swords,
pikes, sabres, halberds, battleaxes, bills, scimitars, maces, tridents, clubs, bows, crossbows, forks, and spears
were all there.
At the sight of them he said happily, "How many of these could I carry by myself? I'd better use the magic for
dividing up my body."
Splendid Monkey King. He plucked a hair from his body, chewed it up, spat it out, made the magic with his
fist, said the words of the spell, and shouted "Change!" It turned into hundreds and thousands of little
monkeys, who rushed wildly about grabbing weapons. The strong ones took six or seven each and the weaker
ones two or three, and between them they removed the lot. He climbed back up on the clouds, called up a gale
by magic, and took all the little monkeys home with him.

Well... if you can lift two mountain (even if we don't use some buff concept, mountain is still heavier than those weapons), why you cannot lift weapons?...

(Chapter 28)

大聖見那些人佈上他的山來，心中大怒，手裏捻訣，口內念念有詞，往那巽地 上吸了一口氣，呼的吹將去，便是一陣狂風。好風！但見： 揚塵播土，倒樹摧林。海浪如山聳，渾波萬疊侵。乾坤昏蕩蕩，日月暗沉沉。 一陣搖松如虎嘯，忽然入竹似龍吟。萬竅怒號天噫氣，飛砂走石亂傷人。

大聖作起這大風，將那碎石，乘風亂飛亂舞。可憐把那些千餘人馬，一個個：
石打烏頭粉碎，沙飛海馬俱傷。人參官桂嶺前忙，血染朱砂地上。附子難歸故
里，檳榔怎得還鄉。屍骸輕粉臥山場，紅娘子家中盼望。
詩曰：
人亡馬死怎歸家，野鬼孤魂亂似麻。
可憐抖擻英雄將，不辨賢愚血染沙。

The Great Sage was furious at the sight of them spreading all over his mountain. He made a spell with his fist,
muttered the words that went with it, breathed in a mouthful of air from the quarter that the winds came from,
and puffed it out again. It was now a hurricane, a splendid hurricane,
Picking up the dust and earth,
Blowing down trees and whole forests.
Waves reared up as high as mountains,
As they beat in thousands upon the shore.
Heaven and Earth were thrown into gloom,
Sun and moon cast into darkness.
One gust shook the pines with a tiger's roar,
Howling like a dragon as it rushed through the bamboos.
Heaven belched angrily through all its orifices,
As flying dirt and stones brought injury and death.
The hurricane that the Great Sage had called up made the piles of broken stone whirl wildly around, and the
thousand men with their horses were reduced to a pathetic state.
The aconite was smashed to pieces by the stones,
While the flying dirt injured all the sea horses.
Ginseng and cassia were in panic by the ridge,
And blood stained the cinnabar ground.
The aconite was stranded away from home,
The betel−nut could not return to its own town.
Corpses lay scattered like powder on the mountainside
Leaving the red lady waiting anxiously at home.

 

[Mariogoods]

I will update a blog with Wukong's profile soon, then link it again to be checked.

Thank you for your effort. Because real life issue, I don't have enough time to create a blog.

 

[Antvasima]

I will update a blog with Wukong's profile soon, then link it again to be checked.

Okay. I will unsubscribe in the meantime. You can tell me via my message wall or PM when you are done.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Large size type 10. What you have is not enough for such a high range.

I only suggested smurf range not large size type 10 bud.

I'm not crazy enough to bring that suggestion up empty handed.