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Summoning Rules

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Pokémon trainer vs pokemon trainer probably wouldn't change due to in character, but pokemon trainer vs lets say Garruk Wildspeaker probably just results in Garruk murdering a child.
 
I can not even begin to describe how much I disagree with this idea.

> By this rule's logic, his aoe would be heavilydowngraded to the point where he might as well be a classic DB villai

Or, more simply, an invisible, tiny forcefield covering a small area would shield a summoner from the blast, effectively leaving whoever they summoned with a fighting chance while not hindering Broly's performance.

> Batman would use his intelligence to deduce the best way to fight a summoner would be to attack him/her directly, as they would be the 'weak link'.

Batman would also cripple whoever he is fighting to the point the match will be worthless and stomp-worthy. The vast majority of summons don't know how to fight intelligently without their summoner and would be easy pray. Having a challenge makes the fight balanced.

> Or maybe, something like the Mind Manipulation of Homura Akemi? By this logic, given that it is subconsicous, either it would be downgraded to only being able to control a summon at a time, or the summoner is immune to 2-A mind hax. This could be applied to virtually everyone with an aoe ranging from meters to a guy who life drain affects his surroundings. Literally most if not all abilities and ranges are somehow affected by this ruling.

This AOE roblem is irrelevant and/or nonexistent if you just assume the summoner is shielded while everyone else is affected. It doesn't matter if the AOE is reduced by a minimal, utterly neglibible percentage if the attack is still going to work on the actual opponent (the guy who is fighting). As soon as the summon is out, the summoner also falls. That's the rule.

Removing the rule will just leads to pointless matches that won't ever get added because the vast majority of summons absolutely need their summoners to have a chance. If Speed Equalized is a thing just so that some characters the staff finds cool get worthy matches, a rule that is far less controversial and that has worked (as far as I understand from the linked threads) doesn't need to be removed. This won't have the effect you are thinking it will.
 
SO the summoner can just, you know, make their summons protect them. What summoners even run into this problem other than pokemon anyways? We shouldn't have rules specific to one verse like that.
 
> SO the summoner can just, you know, make their summons protect them

Plot Induced Stupidity is assumed to not be a thing in a match unless the character has plot abilities. The sheer difference between a summoner and their summon's foe will make it borderline impossible.

> What summoners even run into this problem other than pokemon anyways?

Literally every summoner that isn't from verses similar to Bayonetta, To Aru no Index has tier 5s summon high tier 4s, the numerical difference between Solar System and Planet is comparable to the difference between the entirety of tiers 5 through 1. It ain't gonna be pretty to the summoner who is in the radius of the shockwaves.
 
So essentially, lets just assume the summoner is shielded with an invincible, invisible shield that is resistant to all known abililtes, regardless of how haxed it is with the ability of reducing range to pitiful levels? The "small" rule here is a lot bigger than you think, and the words you use to describe don't even sugarcoat that fact.

I'm 100% sure I know the effect the rule's removal will have, it would be extremely similar to another archetype of fighting styles that you may know of actually, glass cannons.

Also, you just gonna ignore that summoners themselves have been to interfere?

There are high tiered characters who don't rely or produce shockwaves with most of their attacks, in case you're forgetting.
 
> How exactly is a summoner making their summons protect them PIS?

Assuming that it will work when the ~tier 5 summoner is so pathetically weak and fragile compared to, as an example, the tier 4 their summon is fighting. Anything will kill them.

Just because it doesn't happen in the actual shows doesn't mean it won't happen in a neutral ground where PIS and WIS aren't a thing. In fact, thanks for illustrating my point regarding PIS for me. Realitistically the summoner is going to die nigh-instantly.
 
> So essentially, lets just assume the summoner is shielded with an invincible, invisible shield that is resistant to all known abililtes, regardless of how haxed it is with the ability of reducing range to pitiful levels? The "small" rule here is a lot bigger than you think, and the words you use to describe don't even sugarcoat that fact.

Yes, we assume that. It doesn't affect anything nor give any of the sides an unfair advantage as the battle would be a stomp otherwise, while the guy who is fighting on his own is still going to stand a very good chance of winning.

> I'm 100% sure I know the effect the rule's removal will have, it would be extremely similar to another archetype of fighting styles that you may know of actually, glass cannons.

Glass cannons don't need someone else to command what they do and stand an actual chance if they aren't in a stomp match. The vast majority of summons don't know how to fight on their own and would be stomped without their summoners. Stomp matches aren't added, so this rule's removal is pointless at best to me.

> Also, you just gonna ignore that summoners themselves have been to interfere?

What?

> There are high tiered characters who don't rely or produce shockwaves with most of their attacks, in case you're forgetting.

Tiers 4 and 3 are exclusively calculated with the inverse square law, a shockwave-based system. All tiers below 2 assume some form of shockwave to get durability and etc., so ramdomly taking away shockwaves is a blatant double standard. And near-misses are an actual thing even if you want to argue AOEless characters.
 
OzzyReborn said:
Just because it doesn't happen in the actual shows doesn't mean it won't happen in a neutral ground where PIS and WIS aren't a thing. In fact, thanks for illustrating my point regarding PIS for me. Realitistically the summoner is going to die nigh-instantly.
Click to expand...
So? If the reason why they don't die in canon is only plot armor instead of a logical motivation, too bad.

If you lack the ability to defend yourself, you are more likely to be killed in a fight to the death.

That's 100% normal for every vs thread, why summoners would be an exception?
 
No it affects quite a bit considering that there are characters in summoner verses who's whole strategy revolves around directly attacking the other summoner.

Too bad for them

See Magic: The Gathering, Warhammer 40,000, Destiny, etc. Really not that uncommon to summon something then fight with it.

No we don't give everyone shockwaves, actually. That would result in any high end tier 8 and higher logically causing mass destruction by moving, and since that's clearly not the case in their fictions it doesn't apply.
 
They're glass cannons because they have no durability, not because they're summoners. Summoners are perfectly capable of having enough dura to take blows.
 
"Yes, we assume that. It doesn't affect anything nor give any of the sides an unfair advantage as the battle would be a stomp otherwise, while the guy who is fighting on his own is still going to stand a very good chance of winning."

Reread what I said, slowly, then read what you wrote.

"Glass cannons don't need someone else to command what they do and stand an actual chance if they aren't in a stomp match. The vast majority of summons don't know how to fight on their own and would be stomped without their summoners. Stomp matches aren't added, so this rule's removal is pointless at best to me."

And glass cannons actually have to fight their enemies directly, where as the summoners can have their summons defend them. If your thread would be a stomp without giving one character invulnerability to everything, then clearly you should have choosen different characters.

Sorry, meant to say, "summoners themselves have been known to interfere in battles"

"Tier 4 and 3 are calculated with the inverse square law, a shockwave-based system. And near-misses are an actual thing even if you want to argue AOE."

...And you think most fictions follow that? Just imagine Superman (Pre-Crisis) always following that rule for example, not all attacks cause shockwaves.
 
And Yobo has a pretty big point, low dura isn't inherit to summoners.
 
> That's 100% normal for every vs thread, why summoners would be an exception?

Because otherwise, most of the time their summon will get stomped by the guy who does not need to be guided to fight intelligently.

Why do you have Speed Equalization if it cripples many people's advantages in a vs match? Maybe because it balances FAR more matches than it ruins, correct?
 
Speed equalization is an exception, not the rule

They'd get crushed without their summoner? Oh well too bad for them

There's advantages and disadvantages to stuff like this. An advantage is a commander, a disadvantage is maybe the commander is weak. That's not a bad thing. Also look at guys like Nicol Bolas and Oryx who are stronger than their summons. Do they just get to summon something (or in the case of Oryx an entire army at once) then be totally immune to everything?
 
@Wok oh shiiii-

@Ozzy

I could easily think of several battles just off the top of my head, that would be fair.

Speed equalization is literally just one stat compared to something that borderline completely changes the power set of both characters in the match.
 
> Speed equalization is an exception, not the rule.

Irrelevant, since it's still a thing in the VS Battles system and a major one that has not been removed despite being far more of a change than summoning ever will.

Do the same thing and get rid of Speed Equalization and other things that are identical to this and I will agree.
 
Quite relevant actually. It affecting more things is a reason to not remove it. This mainly affects pokemon, and even then you can just make a match with the opponent weaker than the summon.
 
"Speed equalization is literally just one stat compared to something that borderline completely changes the power set of both characters in the match."
 
Also we've been unrestricting far more broken things like 1-A immortality, so yeah we've been pretty consistent about stuff like this. Speed equalization is literally the only thing.
 
> Speed equalization is literally just one stat

The stat that matters more in a fight than anything else. It doesn't matter if you're hundreds of thousands of times stronger than your enemy if he can run a million laps around you by the time you even realize that the fight has begun. You will much sooner decay to a corpse.

The reason why it hasn't been removed? It balances far more fights than it ruins, despite taking away every speedster's advantage in a fight.

Exact same thing here.
 
Ok, lets give some examples.

Nahiri once summoned Emrakul. While this needs prep, if she had prep and summoned Emrakul there's no reason that she'd just be invincible for the match. Also Emrakul can function just fine if Nahiri is dead.

Also, Garruk Wildspeaker generally fights by summoning beasts while trying to kill his opponent with his axe. Does his opponent now have to kill all his summons before attacking the invincible guy coming at them with an axe? That seems pretty silly to me.
 
I'd argue that letting summoners get hit opens up more fights then it ruins. Now you can have more interesting inter tier matchups and discuss how a character may approach such a situation, and you don't get weird stuff like people being unstoppable once they summon a guy.
 
SomebodyData said:
An important stat yes, but just one stat nonetheless.
Click to expand...
It being "one stat" is completely irrelevant to the actual battle, as it affects the balance of the fight far more than all the other stats. The battle is decided by who has the more effective ability against the opponent. If you're MFTL+ and your opponent is MHS him being 1000 times your strength is irrelevant. He will never manage to land that hit.

So, I ask again, why the double standard?
 
What I don't understand is why you keep harping on the 1 exception left and ignoring the general trend of allowing more. Look at how speed amps are allowed in speed equal now, look at how higher dimensional hax is allowed now, look at how higher dimensional immortality and protection is allowed now. Don't fixate so much on the one necessary evil that lets 80% of matches happen when the clear overall notion is against it. This doesn't even majorly affect most non pokemon summoners.
 
Let me ask you about your double standard, why not push for stats/ abilities/ equalized by your logic? If you want to pull this double standard nonsense then you must accept that extremes are also acceptable. I'm arguing that this extreme (Summoners gaining invulnerability, invisibility, resistance to all abilities, and affects the range of his/her enemies) is nowhere comparable to a necesssary evil (Speed equalization). By your logic, complete equalization might as well be the same.
 
> What I don't understand is why you keep harping on the 1 exception left

Not one (SBA also gives some pure-hearted heroes a leeway to kill, something that affects their fights with characters who don't have the same limitations), and there are more. Even if it was a single exception, this single exception affects more than everything else combined, and yet you guys have been arguing this entire thread that the summoner rule is more extreme (which, to me, definitely is not)

@SD

I would agree with you, but the summoning rule is nowhere near as extreme as you think it is. It is either a close fight between the summon and someone else, or a fight where the summon is going to be utterly crippled because their summoner will be quickly killed off. It rarely creates stomps, while removing the rule will generate way more stomps and remove more matches than it will generate.

So yes, it is a double standard.
 
Name some more then. Not killing is often for reasons that wouldn't matter if they aren't in their own verse as is. Also, what do you have to say about the MTG examples? Should Garruk just be free to attack with impunity so long as he keeps summoning a beast?
 
Also SBA can be pretty easily explained. The point is characters fighting. We clearly aren't going to be like "this guy doesn't fight".
 
To be fair, this rule has been only used with pokemon trainer and maybe digimon tamers; I don't remember any single instance of this rule being used with conventional summoners, so saying that removing this rule will change pretty much anything about summoners is a lie.

Also, summoners can defend them self by using its own summonigs and that have nothing to do with PIS, in fact, I think that, in-verse, glass cannons summoners fight agaisnt beings far stronger than they are and they aren't stomping as you are saying.
 
@Somebody

You are acting like the summoner will be fighting someone. I don't think I have to tell you they won't. They will tell a non-invulnerable guy how to fight in order to do well against a foe that doesn't need orders to fight well.

Don't artificially make it seem extreme when it's not.

And I can't fall onto acception, no.
 
@Antoniofoer

In-universe fights where a,say, tier 5 summoner somehow manages to survive close hits from much stronger people aren't going to be a thing in a neutral battle, unless you want to upgrade the summoner's durability.
 
The point is, summoners often do fight people and you do not seem to be addressing that. I posted like 4 verses back up there where that is the case. There's no reason for them to be invincible.
 
Not sure you noticed, but summoners have often entered battles themselves. It was literally a point in the op.

Just because you don't want to go in the route of what the rule means once someone thinks about it, doesn't mean everyone else hasn't.

What?
 
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