Strongest non-smurf Low 5-B Hajime vs Qiqi

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Hajime Nagumo

Hajime Nagumo was your average high school otaku whose cordial relationship with Kaori Shirasaki bought him the ire of most of his classmates. After absentmindedly wishing for his classmates to vanish to another world, he and the rest of his class suddenly found themselves summoned to a parallel...

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VS

Qiqi

When she was young, Qiqi was burdened with an incurable disease that would cause her death before the age of 20. Despite this, she used her genius intellect to develop robotics in order to defy her fate. However, she is inevitably unable to create a robotic body for herself before her time is...

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Condition: speed equalized

Hajime: @Expectro2000xxx ,@pfate17 ,@Phoenks ,@Epiccheev ,@LuffyRuffy46307 ,@EL_xWatcher1234x ,@Noneless21 ,

Qiqi: @DontTalkDT ,@Jozaysmith? ,

inconclusive:

 

[DontTalkDT]

For a top 5 strongest you can not specify starting range.

Aside from that, as said, will reply to your prior arguments a little later.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

For a top 5 strongest you can not specify starting range.

Aside from that, as said, will reply to your prior arguments a little later.

Changed it. what about speed?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Speed Equal is allowed

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Does the thread name need to include "Strongest non-smurf"?

 

[Phoenks]

Should probably get @Expectro2000xxx on here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is the AI he fought.

Ok... your point?

Copy what?
Devices and weapons made from the combination technology and magic that rely on Laws and CM2 .
Did she ever do something like that, yeah and mana is undetectable unless she can analyze something on macro-quantum level.

Yes.
Macro-quantum is no problem. Even current state of the art tech can do that. Qiqi's world is 1000 years ahead and she is a genius that massively improves of that. For someone that has invented spacetime manipulating technology and stuff it really isn't that hard.
And remember, she can go back in time to his verse and learn magic from random mages there as a starting point for learning how to reverse engineer his tech. Anything that doesn't need him in particular to work she can probably eventually replicate, given years, decades or millennia of research.

And yes, she has before gone back in the past to learn how to build her opponent's tech.

He also learn, adapt and improve against enemies more haxed than him with resistance to everything he has and he still developed counter measures against them in the middle of the fight.(he is extraordinary genius)

Difference is that she has infinite prep time and prior knowledge and he... not.
And if she comes in she probably comes in with something to just defeat him immediately. Or at least pretty damn fast.

This based on NLF and that he will just stand there and wait doing nothing, which is completly against his personality.

Ehm... it's about a future version that appears in the present the moment the battle starts. The time during which she does stuff he isn't just standing around. It's just that this time is in his future (specifically, in a future in which he lost the fight).

Building more robots or summoning more version of her is just a bad choice.

Demons (soul) posses don't just hack they also posses machines,people and objects that mean even the biological robots will be possesed, and if her haxes come from her body then she just gave him another army and another Qiqi to use.

That implies that they could override her control over them. Her hacking is already superior to that of someone who can easily take over the surveillance systems of an entire planet. (surveillance systems designed to resist robot uprisings, mind you) So I have my doubt they could override her control over a machine she has designed to be controlled.
He also needs time to summon those demons, I assume. And does he even have enough to possess... whatever many QiQi may decide to build?
Not like she couldn't just put in a device to instantly explode any possessed robot.

About RE, can they adapt to layered Law an CM2 or any if his hax?

Not Law and CM2 probably, but the fear manip should be fair play for example. Possibly more if she trains them on magic in Hajime's verse's past.

He can sense(invisible, soul, abstract and dude with a stealth so OP it erase his prescence anyone and anything including machines), he can also sense and see spacial distortion or something happening on another universe.

Qiqi can hide from people who can detect invisible things, is not abstract, is a robot and doesn't use presence hiding for her stealth, nor does she use spatial dimensions.
Basically, she doesn't fall into all that many of his search patterns.

He analyze her and target her info type2, or it won't make a difference because he was able to find the machine that have the back up AI using a compass (CM1) that told him the location of anything across the multiverse.

Can you give me details on how that works exactly?

How will that deal with Law and CM?

If he destroys robot fakes with his law and CM instead of the real deal it won't do anything to her. Same if he can't target her.

this is assuming he will just stand there defendless, he can sense spatial distortion(portal, teleportation, spatial cut and shockwave...) before they manifest, he has a multiple spatial barriers and he can lock inside a barrier where she can't use any form of space-time manipulation.

He can't this one before it manifests, as it can just manifest 0s after the fight starts. He can't take action before the fight starts, so there is no advance reaction to it.
Not that time travel would even fall under things that can be sensed with spatial distortion.
Spatial barriers can be opened via spatial tech.
And for that other barrier he would have to
a) do that first, which she won't give him the time for.
b) know that's necessary.
Not that it matters that much anyway. Spatial manip is one way to attack for QiQi, but not her only one. The barrier won't prevent her future versions from appearing, if that where you were going with that, because they appear before he sets the barrier up.

He resist something like that and his passive power null will deal with it.

Just check his profile.

I see no resistance to matter manip on his profile.
And I doubt he power nulls regular non-supernatural technology.



I will also add that future QiQi can certainly improve her speed further than current one, possibly letting her blitz. You see, her current model is a jack of all trades one. She could switch to a speed focussed one to already improve on it by her current tech level. By more improvement in the future it could go even further.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I'll just wait for Expectro.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Should probably get @Expectro2000xxx on here.

I hate you and your magician powers.


Huuuh, I will try to answer to the things I get to see in the list thread

She doesn't need to press the button.
Future versions of her that already won the fight on their own appear in the present to help Qiqi win the fight. I.e. the problem lies in having to win a fight against an extraordinary genius with prior knowledge and infinite prep time, since that is what her future version would amount to.

(also not sure if that aura thing would even work on a robot)

I mean, she have to win against an extraordinary genius, who have infinite energy, infinite lives, have armies of abstract beings and an arsenal of esoteric stuff that doesn't fall under the technological area that her powers cover. To begin with, I would like to ask why would he be unable to apply the same argument to her? Like, why would he be unable to learn her stuff and use it against her? He is also dumbly smart, enough to create impossible inventions (like a perpetual motion machines), analyze, understand and manipulate completely unknown and futuristic technology after see it for a bit (this even without his info analysis with evolution magic), analyze and master unknown abilities in a short time and counter complex stuff after.

When nerfed, in a state basically unable to use his powers, with only two guns in hand, he by showing his bloodlust for just a moment (actually for an instant, less than a moment) made an AI hallucinate with the space breaking, an robot with no conciousness at all fell as if they received an physical impact, and another AI was made to pray from it (this despite she being at the other side of the planet, possessing higher stats, far better versatility and abilities, with a planet worth of futuristic machines, with an advantage the more time passed, and with the ability to get her hands on his stuff and take anyone he ever cared as hostage). So, there is literally zero reason to believe that QiQi would just be able to overcome that just because she is brave (like you said in one of your later replies) against an Hajime at perfect condition.

The thing is, you have to account for future potential and her knowledge. She, amongst others, does things like travel to the past to copy the tech of her enemies and then start improving on it. So, one thing perfectly in-character for her, is for her future version to have Hajime's tech to use against him, but improved. In principle nothing stops her from learning non-tech related things either, like perhaps she could study and learn the magic of his verse?
Qiqi can just build an army of robots that don't have true AI to circumvent the fear stuff, although she herself is also pretty brave, if that accounts for something. I mean, she already has parasite bombs of which she could teleport in a bunch.
She could also access tech from the Princess character in her series in the future, who can build biological robots with reactive evolution that allows them to quickly evolve immunity to stuff. With some training, that could be useful.
Also, she resists hacking. A lot.
I'm also not sure if he can sense an invisible and inaudible robot or distinguish her from countless fake robots, which could mitigate his offensive options a lot. She has fooled super senses before. That would be the first defense against law and concept stuff, with the other being the fact that her future version suddenly teleporting in will get the jump on him and might just immediately end the fight.
Similar to Ka'more (her rival in the verse) she could create tech that makes backups of her and transfers it to other tech. So she could survive by a backup of her present (or a past) version of her being put on a machine is a distant part of the galaxy.
Her future version can of course become AP wise much stronger.
Future Qiqi is also known to create a device that stops the movements of all atoms in a 50km radius for a pseudo-timestop. I believe Hajime does not resist that.

Hajime learned how to analyze, understand and manipulate unknown materials and technology (from their perspective that was futuristic technology from a far more advanced civilization) far before he even got the fundamental information analysis of evolution magic (this is a vol 5 feat), he also have the experience of face people with his same stuff and improve himself in the middle of combat, as well as have his stuff improved and still so steal it and improve it further more (part of the Oscar scan, as he got his transmutation skills copied and improved just for he himself steal them and improve them again). Hajime also possess evolution magic information analysis, which lets him see the fundamental information of stuff, this along with his talent for innovation and turn his ideas into concrete tools, makes him capable to pretty much much counter anything he faces. So Hajime should be more than capable to learn about her stuff and use it himself against her, specially when you consider that he can have one of his subordinates (which are abstract beings) possessing her stuff through completely supernatural ways (so no hacking defense would work), there is even a presedence of such a thing like when one of his subordinates possessed and stealed the body of a futuristic super advanced AI like Mother.

Hajime can see and feel spatial distortions, and his instincts let him feel danger, he can also feel the presence of things around him (including machines), so surprise attacks aren't going to work that well, and teleportation in general isn't going to be that effective as he also can just predict where the enemies will appear. I actually feel it could be harder for QiQi to detect him if he were to go with the stealth option as he can turn invisible, control sound and his signatures (bare minimum we know he can control heat signatures, biosignatures and soul signatures), plus the demons, gods and apparitions subordinated to him would be straight up undetectable to her.

Besides his mater manipulation he also specifically possess an organic manipulation to use biological weapons, and he himself grow stat and ability wise at an dumb rate so that isn't going to really matter.

He have a feat of specifically distinguish his specific target among millions of other machines, this thansk to his conceptual artifact that always tell him the location of whatever he desire (the Compass of Eternal Paths). Actually, with his compass and Crystal Key one could even argue that Hajime would be able to go to QiQi world, learn all her stuff and stop her directly, as with both artifacts he can not only travel to different worlds but even go to worlds with a different time flow than his own.

As a note, another possible option Hajime have is to counter QiQi time shenanigans, as he have already faced in the past time manipulators and have specifically created artifacts to counter their time related stuff, so I can see him also pulling something like that against QiQi.

Additionally, in case one is skeptical about the idea of Hajime analyzing and countering her stuff in middle of combat, I should mention that Hajime isn't at all shy to make strategical retreats if needed, as he is able to teleport at any moment to his Miniature Garden, an pocket world where thousands of abstract beings that are his subordinates live and where he is in complete control of all the energy and elements inside, and analyze and develop counter to things while under the effects of time acceleration, so he certainly can get in a better situation to pull counters against her.

He actually passively nullify any time or matter manipulation (along with spatial manipulation, so another reason of why teleportation doesn't work against him) used against him with his Guardian Talisman, so the timestop wouldn't work against him.

And besides this points there is also Hajime infinite automatic revives through restoration magic, so QiQi can't put him down, and his more busted stuff like offensive conceptual magic stuff (like the Deny All Existences) that if eventually come to play should probably take QiQi down regardless of her technology.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can't Hajime just shut her down?

 

[pfate17]

If she went back in time to spy and analyze Hajime's technology/magic, she would be discovered by her time version, at most she would have to try and break into Hajime's 'workshop', which shouldn't be an easy task, she would probably would be caught by Hajime himself or one of his wives.
In short: if she went back in time, it would cause a problem with Hajime from that time.

 

[pfate17]

If she escapes to prepare to fight, Hajime could use the compass to "see" what she is doing, that is, he could use the compass to spy on her without her knowing, so when she returns he would already have countermeasures for anything she plans.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

If she escapes to prepare to fight, Hajime could use the compass to "see" what she is doing, that is, he could use the compass to spy on her without her knowing, so when she returns he would already have countermeasures for anything she plans.

Assuming he will wait, instead of learning how she time travel.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Guys, I think I already covered the type of stuff you are saying, so I feel would be better to wait until a counterargument is given.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, she have to win against an extraordinary genius, who have infinite energy, infinite lives, have armies of abstract beings and an arsenal of esoteric stuff that doesn't fall under the technological area that her powers cover.

I see no reason QiQi could, given arbitrary amounts of time, not learn magic or whatever other esoteric stuff.

To begin with, I would like to ask why would he be unable to apply the same argument to her? Like, why would he be unable to learn her stuff and use it against her? He is also dumbly smart, enough to create impossible inventions (like a perpetual motion machines), analyze, understand and manipulate completely unknown and futuristic technology after see it for a bit (this even without his info analysis with evolution magic), analyze and master unknown abilities in a short time and counter complex stuff after.

Because he doesn't have prep, contrary to her future version?
Qiqi can do this because her future version doesn't need to do it mid-fight. She can spend the next 20000 years researching and preparing to win this fight. Hajime has to act while he is attacked by all the stuff she built and prepared in that time.

When nerfed, in a state basically unable to use his powers, with only two guns in hand, he by showing his bloodlust for just a moment (actually for an instant, less than a moment) made an AI hallucinate with the space breaking, an robot with no conciousness at all fell as if they received an physical impact, and another AI was made to pray from it (this despite she being at the other side of the planet, possessing higher stats, far better versatility and abilities, with a planet worth of futuristic machines, with an advantage the more time passed, and with the ability to get her hands on his stuff and take anyone he ever cared as hostage). So, there is literally zero reason to believe that QiQi would just be able to overcome that just because she is brave (like you said in one of your later replies) against an Hajime at perfect condition.

Idk, is it consistently portrayed such that nobody without resistance can? Qiqi is prepared to sacrifice herself for her cause and stuff like that, so I in principle doubt that fear is gonna stop her from acting.
And she can just construct machines to defeat him that have no subjective experience of anything. Like, he isn't scaring a stone into not rolling down a slope, so a sufficiently unintelligent device won't be affected.

Hajime learned how to analyze, understand and manipulate unknown materials and technology (from their perspective that was futuristic technology from a far more advanced civilization) far before he even got the fundamental information analysis of evolution magic (this is a vol 5 feat), he also have the experience of face people with his same stuff and improve himself in the middle of combat, as well as have his stuff improved and still so steal it and improve it further more (part of the Oscar scan, as he got his transmutation skills copied and improved just for he himself steal them and improve them again). Hajime also possess evolution magic information analysis, which lets him see the fundamental information of stuff, this along with his talent for innovation and turn his ideas into concrete tools, makes him capable to pretty much much counter anything he faces. So Hajime should be more than capable to learn about her stuff and use it himself against her, specially when you consider that he can have one of his subordinates (which are abstract beings) possessing her stuff through completely supernatural ways (so no hacking defense would work), there is even a presedence of such a thing like when one of his subordinates possessed and stealed the body of a futuristic super advanced AI like Mother.

Again, the problem here is that Qiqi has arbitrary prep and he not. There just won't be time in the fight for him to start building tech.
Are those subordinates part of his standard equip? And how many are there?
What the hacking is concerned: The idea wasn't that her hacking defense protects against possession. The idea was that she can just force his equipment to move despite being possessed. Essentially using body puppetry (via hacking) to overrule the possession.

Hajime can see and feel spatial distortions, and his instincts let him feel danger, he can also feel the presence of things around him (including machines), so surprise attacks aren't going to work that well, and teleportation in general isn't going to be that effective as he also can just predict where the enemies will appear.

I doubt he can really do anything against someone teleporting in from the future. He can not retroactively have turned around and sense something before the fight started, now can he?
His present state is determined before the person in the future decides to travel back to that time.

(Regular teleportation in Qiqi's verse also doesn't require actual space, so probably no space distortions either)

I actually feel it could be harder for QiQi to detect him if he were to go with the stealth option as he can turn invisible, control sound and his signatures (bare minimum we know he can control heat signatures, biosignatures and soul signatures), plus the demons, gods and apparitions subordinated to him would be straight up undetectable to her.

She can detect robots with stealth like her own, which fits the same criteria.

Besides his mater manipulation he also specifically possess an organic manipulation to use biological weapons, and he himself grow stat and ability wise at an dumb rate so that isn't going to really matter.

Not sure why biological weapons matter?
And like, yeah, he grows fast. But not arbitrary amounts of prep per second fast. I really doubt that he can mid-fight against future Qiqi grow more than she could in literally ever in her entire potentially infinite life.

He have a feat of specifically distinguish his specific target among millions of other machines, this thansk to his conceptual artifact that always tell him the location of whatever he desire (the Compass of Eternal Paths). Actually, with his compass and Crystal Key one could even argue that Hajime would be able to go to QiQi world, learn all her stuff and stop her directly, as with both artifacts he can not only travel to different worlds but even go to worlds with a different time flow than his own.

Can he specifically select what the compass points to or is it like Jack Sparrows that only points to whatever he desires most?
What the world thing is concerned: That's nice, but pointless. He has no time for that. Future QiQi fights him immediately, as she does her prep in the future and then travels back in time to attack in the present.

As a note, another possible option Hajime have is to counter QiQi time shenanigans, as he have already faced in the past time manipulators and have specifically created artifacts to counter their time related stuff, so I can see him also pulling something like that against QiQi.

Which wouldn't work, because they only prevent time manipulation of something after hitting it and he can't hit future Qiqi before she appears in the present at the exact point in time the fight starts.
Neither could he invent some other theoretical device, because he contrary to Qiqi still has no prep.

Additionally, in case one is skeptical about the idea of Hajime analyzing and countering her stuff in middle of combat, I should mention that Hajime isn't at all shy to make strategical retreats if needed, as he is able to teleport at any moment to his Miniature Garden, an pocket world where thousands of abstract beings that are his subordinates live and where he is in complete control of all the energy and elements inside, and analyze and develop counter to things while under the effects of time acceleration, so he certainly can get in a better situation to pull counters against her.

Teleportation-blocking tech is already a thing in Qiqi's verse.
And she could of course follow him there to not give him time to do stuff.

He actually passively nullify any time or matter manipulation (along with spatial manipulation, so another reason of why teleportation doesn't work against him) used against him with his Guardian Talisman, so the timestop wouldn't work against him.

And besides this points there is also Hajime infinite automatic revives through restoration magic, so QiQi can't put him down, and his more busted stuff like offensive conceptual magic stuff (like the Deny All Existences) that if eventually come to play should probably take QiQi down regardless of her technology.

The scan on matter manipulation says it nullifies magic. Qiqi's tech doesn't use magic, so that doesn't work.

She could incap instead of killing him via pseudo-time freeze or maybe BFR him into the future or something (all via non-magical means). Alternatively, replicate or outright steal his technology of his body and use it against him. Like, use her boosted stats to just snatch the erasure bullet before he can react and shoot him with it.

If she went back in time to spy and analyze Hajime's technology/magic, she would be discovered by her time version, at most she would have to try and break into Hajime's 'workshop', which shouldn't be an easy task, she would probably would be caught by Hajime himself or one of his wives.
In short: if she went back in time, it would cause a problem with Hajime from that time.

No, actually. Time travel in her series is complicated, but long story short, she can go to the past and observe it, but she can't influence it to change the present. That's generally a two edged sword, but in these cases she profits from it as those scenario's can't happen.

Assuming he will wait, instead of learning how she time travel.

If she escapes to prepare to fight, Hajime could use the compass to "see" what she is doing, that is, he could use the compass to spy on her without her knowing, so when she returns he would already have countermeasures for anything she plans.

She has no need to escape to prepare. All the prep has already been done by her future self. So there is definitely never a time Hajime is waiting.
The only point of escaping would be to have her present version escape to not get dragged into the battle between her future version and Hajime, which is taking place at the same time.

 

[pfate17]

If I'm not mistaken, Hajime has already demonstrated resistance to "time freezing", which must be superior to her "pseudo-time freezing".

 

[pfate17]

When you say she can't influence you, you mean she can't interact because of some rule or something or that she literally can't (only her mind travels through time or something) because if she travels through time with her body and everything and watch him, he will obviously notice
PS: asking because I don't know her verse (I've never heard of it)

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Just wait for Expectro.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Because he doesn't have prep, contrary to her future version?
Qiqi can do this because her future version doesn't need to do it mid-fight. She can spend the next 20000 years researching and preparing to win this fight. Hajime has to act while he is attacked by all the stuff she built and prepared in that time.

From what you said the versions of Qiqi that appear are from a future where she have won, but the problem is that is that it assumes that there is to begin with a future where she won at base, and given the conditions she faces I don't really see a realistical future where she can win against Hajime without her future self helping before the match even begin as you said, as she faces someone that automatically incap her, who have complex and dangerous powers she don't understand and that can take her down the moment they get used, who have infinite revives and who can fairly easily get a hand on her own technology and incorporate it to his kit (something that to begin with is extremely in character for him) through supernatural means that she have no initial defense. Actually, based on the fact that Hajime can realistically get her technology, I don't see why he wouldn't also gain the same capability of getting help from versions of himself from a future where he won, because at the end of the day with just a single version of himself gaining her technology among the different timelines would be enough for him to do that.

Idk, is it consistently portrayed such that nobody without resistance can? Qiqi is prepared to sacrifice herself for her cause and stuff like that, so I in principle doubt that fear is gonna stop her from acting.
And she can just construct machines to defeat him that have no subjective experience of anything. Like, he isn't scaring a stone into not rolling down a slope, so a sufficiently unintelligent device won't be affected.

People with really strong wills in verse are the only ones who have resisted his killing intent in verse, and when I mean strong will I mean it as supernatural willpower level, as those with strong wills in verse can straight up gain super powers and do impossible stuff, so unless Qiqi have a supernatural willpower levels of bravery then she shouldn't be able to resist it. Bare minimum she would get paralyzed from pure fear, and at worst her SAN value gets completely consumed, yes, SAN values are something that actually exist in verse and characters have actually lost their San values from facing his killing intent even for a moment.

Machines with no consciouness at all should be capable to circumvent the fear yes, though from the machine soldier case even then they should still feel as if hit by a physical impact from it. But for her to opt to use machines with no consciouness at all she would need to first somehow overcome the effect from the fear hax.

Again, the problem here is that Qiqi has arbitrary prep and he not. There just won't be time in the fight for him to start building tech.
Are those subordinates part of his standard equip? And how many are there?
What the hacking is concerned: The idea wasn't that her hacking defense protects against possession. The idea was that she can just force his equipment to move despite being possessed. Essentially using body puppetry (via hacking) to overrule the possession.

And the problem here is that she actually can't get arbitrary prep time because there is no way for her to overcome the hurdless that she face when facing Hajime, because his fear hax would make her unable to act and use her time machine, because his subordinates would arbitrarily take control of her and her technology, because he himself would arbitrarily take control of her technology with his transmutation (and just in case you would say something like "if he can do that why he didn't do it against the AI and machines he faced before?" the answe to that would be that in that arc he was so nerfed that he quite literally couldn't use 99% of his skillset, including something as basic as his transmutation), etc. She isn't going to be able to travel in time and there wouldn't be a future where she won.

No, she can't, she very specifically can't control the possessed stuff, that's the reason of why an AI like Mother was unable to self-destruct her body when it got possessed, at that point the body no longer would move and act due to its normal programs but due to supernatural forces, so to argue that Qiqi would still be able to control it despite the possession you would need to show her hacking overcoming supernatural forces like that.

I doubt he can really do anything against someone teleporting in from the future. He can not retroactively have turned around and sense something before the fight started, now can he?
His present state is determined before the person in the future decides to travel back to that time.

(Regular teleportation in Qiqi's verse also doesn't require actual space, so probably no space distortions either)

Nothing would be able to teleport close to him with his Guardian Talisman, and for Qiqi to teleport from the future at the moment the fight start she would need to first be able to travel to the future, which she would be unable to do from the reasons I already mentioned.

Although spatial magic is called like that, the true ability of it isn't the manipulation of space but instead of something more abstract like boundaries (the name spatial magic is just for simplicity sake), so as long as boundaries are affected he would be able to feel it and affect it.

Also, this made me remember that I forgot to mention that spirit magic, despite the name, is actually the power to manipulate the elements of sentient beings, so it's possible that he could just directly interfere with Qiqi conciouness itself. Though it would be more likely that he just use the simpliest and easiet way of just use evolution magic to interfere with her information, because as he says "When magic is mixed with information society……something like the world becomes simple".

She can detect robots with stealth like her own, which fits the same criteria.

But can she do it even when said stealth comes from supernatural means? Because I can see her having better technology than her opponents and that way overcoming their stealth, but I find it hard to imagine that she could, for example, smell or hear someone who just magically made sound and smell disappear without any scientific explanation.

Not sure why biological weapons matter?
And like, yeah, he grows fast. But not arbitrary amounts of prep per second fast. I really doubt that he can mid-fight against future Qiqi grow more than she could in literally ever in her entire potentially infinite life.

You where the one who brought the biological weapons point, so I just simple answered by saying that he can also manipulate things like that with his powers.

She will not get any arbitrary amount of prep time because he will not let her travel in time to begin with, and because he is also capable to obtain an arbitrary amount of prep time. Additionally, the main factor of his growth it's actually his will, as even when the opponent is overwhelming superior to him he can just gain abilities and grow strong enough to resist, that was how he resisted Ehit powers and how he gained the Transcende skill, so if really pushed he would just gain new things to fight back, which not only include new skills but also concept magic, so even going that route he can just randomly obtain new stuff to fight Qiqi.

Can he specifically select what the compass points to or is it like Jack Sparrows that only points to whatever he desires most?

He can specifically select whatever he desire. Also, have never really watched the Jack Sparrow movies besides some concrete scenes so I didn't know that he had something like that.

Which wouldn't work, because they only prevent time manipulation of something after hitting it and he can't hit future Qiqi before she appears in the present at the exact point in time the fight starts.
Neither could he invent some other theoretical device, because he contrary to Qiqi still has no prep.

If the original Qiqi had her time manipulation prevented in the first place then she wouldn't be able to go back in time to the start of the match. He can get the same prep as Qiqi if in the original timeline, or any timeline, get her technology, which as I point out it would be what happens.

Teleportation-blocking tech is already a thing in Qiqi's verse.
And she could of course follow him there to not give him time to do stuff.

In his case he can interfere with the boundaries, which is explicitly said to be superior to just simply interfere with space.
If she follow him there she would sabotage herself as she would get surrounded by an army of abstract beings with esoteric abilities that she can't do anything against.

The scan on matter manipulation says it nullifies magic. Qiqi's tech doesn't use magic, so that doesn't work.

She could incap instead of killing him via pseudo-time freeze or maybe BFR him into the future or something (all via non-magical means). Alternatively, replicate or outright steal his technology of his body and use it against him. Like, use her boosted stats to just snatch the erasure bullet before he can react and shoot him with it.

It works because the Guardian Talisman use ancient magic as the basis of its ability, and ancient magic is the power to manipulate the very underlying principles of the universe, reason to why the effects of ancient magic work regardless of the energy system used (as they work against any of the different unique energies that exist in verse) or against non supernatural effects accomplished through technology (as show by the fact that weak spatial magic can interfere with the spatial manipulation of technology), so the effects of the Guardian Talisman would still affect the same way Qiqi stuff event if it comes from technology.

The pseudo-time freeze wouldn't work, even under the argument of the Guardian Talisman not automatically nullying that (which it would) his subornidates would appear to help him, same with the BFR argument though in that case it would be even worse as he would gain free time to create stuff and he would be able to come back at any moment with the conceptual artifacts. I honestly doubt she would be able to use the bullet against him considering how it's the literal manifestation of his will, plus the fact that he made so that his artifacts can only be used by him and that he can manipulate them as he please with his powers.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Bump

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

DT where are you at?

 

[DontTalkDT]

If I'm not mistaken, Hajime has already demonstrated resistance to "time freezing", which must be superior to her "pseudo-time freezing".

Not really how it works. The pseudo-time freeze isn't time manipulation. It's a matter manipulation thing. It's not covered by time resistance at all.

When you say she can't influence you, you mean she can't interact because of some rule or something or that she literally can't (only her mind travels through time or something) because if she travels through time with her body and everything and watch him, he will obviously notice
PS: asking because I don't know her verse (I've never heard of it)

She physically goes back, but whenever she takes an action that would change the present it's immediately undone by the universe itself.
E.g. if she could save someone that died by pressing a button and she does so then, upon pressing the button, the universe immediately reverses itself to its state before the button was pressed.

From what you said the versions of Qiqi that appear are from a future where she have won, but the problem is that is that it assumes that there is to begin with a future where she won at base, and given the conditions she faces I don't really see a realistical future where she can win against Hajime without her future self helping before the match even begin as you said, as she faces someone that automatically incap her, who have complex and dangerous powers she don't understand and that can take her down the moment they get used, who have infinite revives and who can fairly easily get a hand on her own technology and incorporate it to his kit (something that to begin with is extremely in character for him) through supernatural means that she have no initial defense. Actually, based on the fact that Hajime can realistically get her technology, I don't see why he wouldn't also gain the same capability of getting help from versions of himself from a future where he won, because at the end of the day with just a single version of himself gaining her technology among the different timelines would be enough for him to do that.

I feel like I should really just explain how Qiqi's time ability works in detail before I start to answer anything else, since that seems to be the fundamental crux of the argument.

First, let me start with saying that her story has precedent regarding all you mentioned. The case of her future self saving her ass was in fact that where her opponent almost stole her time machine. So no, by precedent Hajime doesn't get the same ability.

What the need of a future where she won at base is concerned: No. The series does not work with parallel timelines. In fact, remember how I said rewriting the past via time travel is not possible? The reason this is allowed is because the timeline is not rewritten. There never was a chain of events where her future self didn't save her.
Is that paradoxical? Yeah, kinda. It's a kind of time paradox, but one different from the grandfather paradox. It's a so called bootstrap paradox.

Another example for this type of paradox is this: You get a letter from the future containing instruction on how to build a time machine. So you build a time machine. Then you write a letter with the instructions on how to build a time machine and send it back to the past. That letter turns out to be the one you originally found.
One could argue in such a scenario the one who caused it should have some kind of acausality. However, if one looks closer, causality is technically not violated. Everything has a definitive cause, it's just that the causal chain is a circle. On the other hand one could argue that it's a causality paradox for the time travel instructions to basically come from nowhere. If one views it like that acausality is a possibility, although it doesn't really fit any of our types.

Anyway, the point is: No, there is no need for a reality in which Qiqi wins on her own. The future Qiqi that has prepared doesn't come from a timeline in which she won on her own, but comes from the exact timeline that follows the fight. She is the future form of the very same Qiqi that viewed her future self win the fight for her.

Here's a brief summary the manga itself gives on its precedence case:

Translated to our scenario it is like this:

Hence, the only time no future Qiqi can appear is if there doesn't even exist a potential infinite prep time future Qiqi that can win the fight.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

If one views it like that acausality is a possibility, although it doesn't really fit any of our types.

Nothing about acausality because she(past, present, future) is still a part of the chain of cause and effect.

 

[pfate17]

Not really how it works. The pseudo-time freeze isn't time manipulation. It's a matter manipulation thing. It's not covered by time resistance at all.

She physically goes back, but whenever she takes an action that would change the present it's immediately undone by the universe itself.
E.g. if she could save someone that died by pressing a button and she does so then, upon pressing the button, the universe immediately reverses itself to its state before the button was pressed.

I feel like I should really just explain how Qiqi's time ability works in detail before I start to answer anything else, since that seems to be the fundamental crux of the argument.

First, let me start with saying that her story has precedent regarding all you mentioned. The case of her future self saving her ass was in fact that where her opponent almost stole her time machine. So no, by precedent Hajime doesn't get the same ability.

What the need of a future where she won at base is concerned: No. The series does not work with parallel timelines. In fact, remember how I said rewriting the past via time travel is not possible? The reason this is allowed is because the timeline is not rewritten. There never was a chain of events where her future self didn't save her.
Is that paradoxical? Yeah, kinda. It's a kind of time paradox, but one different from the grandfather paradox. It's a so called bootstrap paradox.

Another example for this type of paradox is this: You get a letter from the future containing instruction on how to build a time machine. So you build a time machine. Then you write a letter with the instructions on how to build a time machine and send it back to the past. That letter turns out to be the one you originally found.
One could argue in such a scenario the one who caused it should have some kind of acausality. However, if one looks closer, causality is technically not violated. Everything has a definitive cause, it's just that the causal chain is a circle. On the other hand one could argue that it's a causality paradox for the time travel instructions to basically come from nowhere. If one views it like that acausality is a possibility, although it doesn't really fit any of our types.

Anyway, the point is: No, there is no need for a reality in which Qiqi wins on her own. The future Qiqi that has prepared doesn't come from a timeline in which she won on her own, but comes from the exact timeline that follows the fight. She is the future form of the very same Qiqi that viewed her future self win the fight for her.

Here's a brief summary the manga itself gives on its precedence case:

Translated to our scenario it is like this:

Hence, the only time no future Qiqi can appear is if there doesn't even exist a potential infinite prep time future Qiqi that can win the fight.

as much as she can do this whole time travel process, none of this stops Hajime from possessing, copying or stealing her technology before he can start this whole process after all " Against stronger opponents she is also prone to run away and come back when she is better prepared."
I'm not denying time travel, I'm just saying that from what I understand she has to start this whole process and she couldn't do it if her technology was under Hajime's control, even though she has infinite preparation time with time travel ( current version) would still have to start the process at some point

 

[pfate17]

"Against stronger opponents, she also tends to flee and return when she is better prepared. This is done through the teleportation device or time machine. Despite the time machine not being able to change the past, Qiqi made extraordinary use of it. good of her. She not only used it to escape, but also to prepare the necessary time and spy on her opponent's past to learn their technology. In the war against the robot army, she also used it to take down opponents across the planet simultaneously ."
if she needs to decide to use this as part of a strategy it means that:
1 - she will make this decision in the middle of the battle (present) (if she is not prevented from performing time travel by Hajime) which guarantees a beginning in time so if it has a "beginning" it cannot be a bootstrap paradox.
2 - she decides to travel back in time after the fight ends, which would not only be "altering the past" but could also indicate that the need to do this after the fight would mean that she lost, therefore even if she went back in time the victory would already belong to Hajime

 

[pfate17]

The fact that it is a strategy means that this help from your future version is not passive (it happens in every battle or moment of your life) so it can be prevented

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I feel like I should really just explain how Qiqi's time ability works in detail before I start to answer anything else, since that seems to be the fundamental crux of the argument.

First, let me start with saying that her story has precedent regarding all you mentioned. The case of her future self saving her ass was in fact that where her opponent almost stole her time machine. So no, by precedent Hajime doesn't get the same ability.

What the need of a future where she won at base is concerned: No. The series does not work with parallel timelines. In fact, remember how I said rewriting the past via time travel is not possible? The reason this is allowed is because the timeline is not rewritten. There never was a chain of events where her future self didn't save her.
Is that paradoxical? Yeah, kinda. It's a kind of time paradox, but one different from the grandfather paradox. It's a so called bootstrap paradox.

Another example for this type of paradox is this: You get a letter from the future containing instruction on how to build a time machine. So you build a time machine. Then you write a letter with the instructions on how to build a time machine and send it back to the past. That letter turns out to be the one you originally found.
One could argue in such a scenario the one who caused it should have some kind of acausality. However, if one looks closer, causality is technically not violated. Everything has a definitive cause, it's just that the causal chain is a circle. On the other hand one could argue that it's a causality paradox for the time travel instructions to basically come from nowhere. If one views it like that acausality is a possibility, although it doesn't really fit any of our types.

Anyway, the point is: No, there is no need for a reality in which Qiqi wins on her own. The future Qiqi that has prepared doesn't come from a timeline in which she won on her own, but comes from the exact timeline that follows the fight. She is the future form of the very same Qiqi that viewed her future self win the fight for her.

Here's a brief summary the manga itself gives on its precedence case:

Translated to our scenario it is like this:

Hence, the only time no future Qiqi can appear is if there doesn't even exist a potential infinite prep time future Qiqi that can win the fight.

Problem with that is that, Hajime, with ancient magic, more specifically restorarion magic, can affect the very rules of time of the universe, so for example, with his Guardian Talisman he nullify any time alteration that affect him and his surroundings, so he would be unable to be affected by the future Qiqi and she would actually disappear around him, he could also use his own version of time travel that doesn't have Qiqi disadvantage or create his own time paradox, and before you say that that would be nlf I should note that as a matter of fact time travel was already made clear to be possible in verse with restoration magic (just really damn expensive energy wise, but that doesn't matter in Hajime case with his infinite supply of energy, which is why one character considered asking Hajime to time travel him) so it isn't at all far fetched to say that Hajime can interact with Qiqi time travel.

Also, another thing I forgot to mention and just yesterday recalled, ancient magic is directly connected to the soul, as the ability to use it is based on the soul of someone, so while Qiqi could learn and use normal magic she is completely unable to learn and use ancient magic as she don't have a soul.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

so while Qiqi could learn and use normal magic she is completely unable to learn and use ancient magic as she don't have a soul

Doesn't magic rely on having a soul?

Aiko's trent can use elemental magic because they were givin a soul while other plant are using abilities based on them being plants (light absorption, pollen that control mind, regeneration...). We even see on the explanaition of metamophosis that monsters are a mutation resulted by absorbing mana from the environement .

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Doesn't magic rely on having a soul?

Aiko's trent can use elemental magic because they were givin a soul while other plant are using abilities based on them being plants (light absorption, pollen that control mind, regeneration...). We even see on the explanaition of metamophosis that monsters are a mutation resulted by absorbing mana from the environement .

Mana is similar and related to the soul, but is also explicitly not the soul, which is why a machine like Mother could get to manipulate it like the star energy, so having a soul isn't required for manipulation of mana, however a soul is required for ancient magic as showed in the other scan.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Mother could get to manipulate it like the star energy

She could manipulate mana (energy manipulation) but she can't use it to preform magic, because that will require a soul.
A magical spell is more than just a lump of energy.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Also if that's the case wouldn't Hajime give his grim reapers the ability to use elemental magic knowing that artifact can use ancient magic without having a soul.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Also if that's the case wouldn't Hajime give his grim reapers the ability to use elemental magic knowing that artifact can use ancient magic without having a soul.

His grim reapers does have a soul with demons, and before that they were enchanted artifacts that he was directly controlling. But regardless, let's wait for DT answer.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

His grim reapers does have a soul with demons, and before that they were enchanted artifacts that he was directly controlling.

I meant before they were possessed, don't you think elemental magic could be useful against Ehit instead of relying on regular weapons(laser, guns, bomb...)
unlike Aiko he is terrible at soul magic, that could explain why he could create a copy of his soul but couldn't give it something he is unable to do(elemental magic).

let's wait for DT answer.

Ok

Shouldn't mana get corruption?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I meant before they were possessed, don't you think elemental magic could be useful against Ehit instead of relying on regular weapons(laser, guns, bomb...)
unlike Aiko he is terrible at soul magic, that could explain why he could create a copy of his soul but couldn't give it something he is unable to do(elemental magic).

Ok

Shouldn't mana get corruption?

This isn't a crt or the generañ discussion so this debate you want to go is kinda derailment and pointless.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Nothing about acausality because she(past, present, future) is still a part of the chain of cause and effect.

Yeah, I agree. That's why Qiqi has no acausality listed. I only brought it up because I could see people argue otherwise as she technically causes a kind of time paradox.

as much as she can do this whole time travel process, none of this stops Hajime from possessing, copying or stealing her technology before he can start this whole process after all " Against stronger opponents she is also prone to run away and come back when she is better prepared."
I'm not denying time travel, I'm just saying that from what I understand she has to start this whole process and she couldn't do it if her technology was under Hajime's control, even though she has infinite preparation time with time travel ( current version) would still have to start the process at some point

She (her present self) has to do nothing to start the process, so I don't understand where you're coming from.
Her future self will do all the preparation after she finished the fight with Hajime. Afterwards, she travels back into the past to when the fight starts, so she is already arriving at the fight with infinite prep.

Like, if we put it in simple terms, Qiqi essentially has a passive instantanous "summon a future version with infinite prep" ability.

"Against stronger opponents, she also tends to flee and return when she is better prepared. This is done through the teleportation device or time machine. Despite the time machine not being able to change the past, Qiqi made extraordinary use of it. good of her. She not only used it to escape, but also to prepare the necessary time and spy on her opponent's past to learn their technology. In the war against the robot army, she also used it to take down opponents across the planet simultaneously ."
if she needs to decide to use this as part of a strategy it means that:
1 - she will make this decision in the middle of the battle (present) (if she is not prevented from performing time travel by Hajime) which guarantees a beginning in time so if it has a "beginning" it cannot be a bootstrap paradox.
2 - she decides to travel back in time after the fight ends, which would not only be "altering the past" but could also indicate that the need to do this after the fight would mean that she lost, therefore even if she went back in time the victory would already belong to Hajime

No, you are conflating two things that do not belong together.
Yes, Qiqi is prone to run away and get back with more prep. In the last fight she went 20 years into the past to have 20 years into the past to prep in the past in peace.

However, that has nothing to do with her future self summoning stuff. The present version of Qiqi has absolutely no hand in that. She does nothing.
Your option 2 is technically correct, but you're wrong about how time travel works in this case. She travels back to the past after the fight ends, yes, but not from a timeline where she won without her future self fighting for her. She travels back to the past from the very same timeline in which the same version that now travels to the past is the one that won the battle. Hence it is not rewriting the past. Her winning the battle by going to the past already happened. That's how she won.

The fact that it is a strategy means that this help from your future version is not passive (it happens in every battle or moment of your life) so it can be prevented

It's passive, as present Qiqi's actions have no influence on if it happens. She wasn't even aware that it is possible when it first happened.
The reason it isn't constantly happening is because there is no constant need for it. Why would a future version decide to help her if she was going to win on her own?

Problem with that is that, Hajime, with ancient magic, more specifically restorarion magic, can affect the very rules of time of the universe, so for example, with his Guardian Talisman he nullify any time alteration that affect him and his surroundings, so he would be unable to be affected by the future Qiqi and she would actually disappear around him, he could also use his own version of time travel that doesn't have Qiqi disadvantage or create his own time paradox, and before you say that that would be nlf I should note that as a matter of fact time travel was already made clear to be possible in verse with restoration magic (just really damn expensive energy wise, but that doesn't matter in Hajime case with his infinite supply of energy, which is why one character considered asking Hajime to time travel him) so it isn't at all far fetched to say that Hajime can interact with Qiqi time travel.

Also, another thing I forgot to mention and just yesterday recalled, ancient magic is directly connected to the soul, as the ability to use it is based on the soul of someone, so while Qiqi could learn and use normal magic she is completely unable to learn and use ancient magic as she don't have a soul.

I mean, first I would continue to dispute that it would nullify pure technology. How would it know to nullify that and not the gravity Hajime uses to stand? I have no doubt that ancient magic can in principle manipulate natural phenomena, but I really doubt that the charm that specifically nullifies magic targets all kinds of natural phenomena as targets to nullify. Honestly, if it did that, it would also need to just erase opponents that get close to him, as those are equally just natural stuff.

And then: Once Qiqi is in the past, she doesn't even have her time travel active. If you want to say that Qiqi would retroactively be deleted for having used time travel before that really needs specific evidence of it actually doing that, as at that point in time she has no time effect even active anymore.

Not sure why you bring up Hajime's time travel. Again, he has no prep time nor can he cheat prep time the way Qiqi does, given that his timetravel doesn't work like that.

The soul thing... why are you convinced Qiqi has no soul? Qiqi is a reincarnated human, which is why her Inorganic Physiology has an uncertain type. What we know from what the author has shown is that seemingly at some point in the future Qiqi's allies are send back to human Qiqi 1000 years before the start of the series to... do something with some technological device. They call it a soul transfer and talk about her soul, but it's hard to say how literal it is. In any case, due to some unfortunate circumstances, they end up having to put it into a robot body, which is how the reincarnation at the start of the series happened. Which means the entire reason Qiqi even exists in the first place is her future version saving her ass lmao
So, chances are Qiqi has a soul. In fact, chances are future Qiqi has the tech needed to create robots with souls if she wants to.
Anyway, even if not, no reason Hajime is the only one allowed to summon allies. Qiqi could just grab her human genius engineer friend and have her do it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

So, chances are Qiqi has a soul. In fact, chances are future Qiqi has the tech needed to create robots with souls if she wants to.

When did she created a soul?

They call it a soul transfer and talk about her soul, but it's hard to say how literal it is. In any case, due to some unfortunate circumstances, they end up having to put it into a robot body, which is how the reincarnation at the start of the series happened. Which means the entire reason Qiqi even exists in the first place is her future version saving her ass lmao

Isn't this a paradox?

 

[pfate17]

1 - it is necessary to review her profile on the wiki since time travel is included as a Standard Tactics not as a passive ability.
2 - you still don't answer about the fact that Hajime can possess, control or steal Qiqi's technology even if the version of her comes from the future, Hajime could already use time travel like her analyzing her version of the present.
3 - you said: In fact, it is likely that in the future Qiqi will have the technology necessary to create robots with souls, if she wants to.
If we are going to use "it is probable" then we could say that Hajime would have the ability to travel in time before the battle, as he creates artifacts often based solely on works of fiction, (so we have to be sure if he has a soul or not and if she can create souls)
4 - it has already been mentioned, but Hajime can also walk away from the fight and leave his golems fighting for him so he can "prepare" for combat through time manipulation, so at this point there is really no difference between the two.
5 - Hajime's possessed golems are not "allies", they are servants, in addition to being possessed by golems with his permission and which can be destroyed whenever he wants, so I don't see how Qiqi invoking allies is fair (since if that were the case, he would be enough summon Endou and she would probably lose since while she's staring at Hajime she probably wouldn't be able to notice Endou)
6 - My Opinion: if the two can stay away from the fight to prepare better and I think this fight will last forever unless they call on allies

The soul thing... why are you convinced Qiqi has no soul? Qiqi is a reincarnated human, which is why her Inorganic Physiology has an uncertain type. What we know from what the author has shown is that seemingly at some point in the future Qiqi's allies are send back to human Qiqi 1000 years before the start of the series to... do something with some technological device. They call it a soul transfer and talk about her soul, but it's hard to say how literal it is. In any case, due to some unfortunate circumstances, they end up having to put it into a robot body, which is how the reincarnation at the start of the series happened. Which means the entire reason Qiqi even exists in the first place is her future version saving her ass lmao
So, chances are Qiqi has a soul. In fact, chances are future Qiqi has the tech needed to create robots with souls if she wants to.
Anyway, even if not, no reason Hajime is the only one allowed to summon allies. Qiqi could just grab her human genius engineer friend and have her do it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

4 - it has already been mentioned, but Hajime can also walk away from the fight and leave his golems fighting for him so he can "prepare" for combat through time manipulation, so at this point there is really no difference between the two.

The miniature guarden is disconnected from the nine realms, this is the reason Tio wasn't influenced by the DRAGON while he was able to influence dragons in another universe.
She needs multiversal range to reach it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What prevent Hajime from creating Time traveling Grim Reapers?

 

[pfate17]

What prevent Hajime from creating Time traveling Grim Reapers?

After he analyzed Qiqi's technology, nothing stopped him from doing so