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Plot is tied to causality though. Plot is really not that different from fate, which is Tzeentch's whole deal. Hell I'm pretty sure they've referred to his stuff as "controlling the plot of the world" in some fantasy stuff.
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Except the very fact that plot can be described as narrative causality disproves your point. Even if Khorne were to be under the effect of the plot, it can't force him to take action or keep him from doing so because he doesn't take actions or not take actions. The application of her meta powers hasn't shown that it can force actions on a being without actions, as it has not shown that it can change the nature of something through its usage. My metaphor works because the issue we have here is a lack of feats rather then a lack of plausibility of your statement. Wall levels with Type 4 acausality also really have no importance here, as not only does Type 5 work entirely differently, but Khorne is stronger for other reasons.
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Khornes also basically has type 8 off of everything else in the verse, and even the opponent, due to being the concept of fighting. Somehow get rid of it? Someone fights and Bam Khorne is back. This is how it always did exist and always will exist. Not as broad as tzeentch but for vs battles it may as well be.
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The act of using plot manipulation then effecting Khorne is still acause and effect relationship. The caude would he plot acting on Khorne, and the effect would be whatever. Due to being unbound by any form of causality, he can sidestep relationships like this.
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No, it really isn't. Not in universe causality anyway, unless a verse specifically says otherwise. Fate being tied to causality also is only the case if the verse specifically dictates that it is the case. Also, I was talking about meta abilities in general, not specifically plot manip. Fate and plot can fill a similar roll in various verses, such as Medaka Box, but in something like Jorge Joestar plot manip is something different and higher than fate manip.
I talked with a warhammer expert friend of mine, and although she said that Khorne undoubtedly has had interactions with plot manipulation before, since Tzeen does overtly have plot manip in 40k, she could not think of an instance of plot manip in Age of Sigmar or Fantasy. If someone has scans of Tzeen using plot manip in fantasy, then it's a pretty open and shut case, but otherwise there is no relation between the 2.
I talked with a warhammer expert friend of mine, and although she said that Khorne undoubtedly has had interactions with plot manipulation before, since Tzeen does overtly have plot manip in 40k, she could not think of an instance of plot manip in Age of Sigmar or Fantasy. If someone has scans of Tzeen using plot manip in fantasy, then it's a pretty open and shut case, but otherwise there is no relation between the 2.
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Fate as a whole is generally assumed to be tied to time and causality in this wiki, hence why Types 4 and 5 (and maybe 2, Idk) of Acausality automatically grant you resistance to Fate Manipulation.Iapitus The Impaler said:
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The idea that we should assume that plot is unbound from causality by default if ludicrous for reasons I sincerely hope I don't have to explain.
Appeal to Authority. What Tzeentch can or can't do doesn't matter anyway because we lack showings of Providence being able to affect something in such a manner that would change its nature, especially when the change would have to occur to a concept like violence.
Appeal to Authority. What Tzeentch can or can't do doesn't matter anyway because we lack showings of Providence being able to affect something in such a manner that would change its nature, especially when the change would have to occur to a concept like violence.
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Narrative causality means something very different from in universe causality, but being beyond in universe causality does not make you above narrative causality. Again, a being who does not take action is completely unrelated to whether or not this being effected by the plot. Asking for feats of something completely unrelated is pointless at best and fallacious at worst. This is like asking for feats of a character blowing up a star to prove they can effect a non-existent being. The type 4 thing was to prove that power of a character has nothing to do with their relation to causality short of high end tier 1.Yobo Blue said:
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Please do explain. They are about as related as BFR and the concept of death.Yobo Blue said:
When did I appeal to authority in any way? I could easily flip this on you and ask for resistence feats of Khorne with plot manip. Plot manip has nothing to do with abstraction or accausality so asking for feats for one in relation to another is fallacious and pointless.
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Except that there would have to be proof in verse that plot would be above causality.
The point was that even if we assume that plot were to affect Khorne, in the case of a battle with Providence it wouldn't matter because what actions he does or doesn't take isn't something that such a being abides by. If a being can affect something without taking action, even if the plot were to affect it, in terms of combat it would do literally nothing from the perspective of anyone but a Type 5 acausual.
Exactly. Providence hasn't shown the feats for this application, she's shown feats for something completely different.
Except the strength Khorne has has nothing to do with his Type 5.
The point was that even if we assume that plot were to affect Khorne, in the case of a battle with Providence it wouldn't matter because what actions he does or doesn't take isn't something that such a being abides by. If a being can affect something without taking action, even if the plot were to affect it, in terms of combat it would do literally nothing from the perspective of anyone but a Type 5 acausual.
Exactly. Providence hasn't shown the feats for this application, she's shown feats for something completely different.
Except the strength Khorne has has nothing to do with his Type 5.
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The point is that causality relation and power are not related at all.RotofBots said:
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Please do explain. They are about as related as BFR and the concept of death.
When did I appeal to authority in any way? I could easily flip this on you and ask for resistence feats of Khorne with plot manip. Plot manip has nothing to do with abstraction or accausality so asking for feats for one in relation to another is fallacious and pointless.
Because plot is by definition "the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence." A sequence of events is directly related to causality. Unless the ability in question is completely different from any sort of sequence and is explained to be so in-Verse, we shouldn't assume they are.
"My friend who knows Warhammer" is about as blatant a appeal to authority as you can get. And while we're at it, no, you cannot "flip it on me" because the ability in question has A. Not shown that it doesn't abide by causality or B. Shown that it can alter the nature of something to the point where it would matter in a fight against a non-Type 5 acasual.
When did I appeal to authority in any way? I could easily flip this on you and ask for resistence feats of Khorne with plot manip. Plot manip has nothing to do with abstraction or accausality so asking for feats for one in relation to another is fallacious and pointless.
Because plot is by definition "the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence." A sequence of events is directly related to causality. Unless the ability in question is completely different from any sort of sequence and is explained to be so in-Verse, we shouldn't assume they are.
"My friend who knows Warhammer" is about as blatant a appeal to authority as you can get. And while we're at it, no, you cannot "flip it on me" because the ability in question has A. Not shown that it doesn't abide by causality or B. Shown that it can alter the nature of something to the point where it would matter in a fight against a non-Type 5 acasual.
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Also what stops this from just getting nulled? How will Providence even know it's in a fight when khorne is literally just a concept that underpins all of reality? Has it ever demonstrated the ability to plot concepts?
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Providence doesn't even open battles with the meta stuff, so Khorne could easilly kill her before she even tries using it.
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Asking someone to prove a negative, in that they are not related, is fallacious.Yobo Blue said:
How characters interact in the plot and how characters interact with in universe causality are unrelated. A character being able do things without acting doesn't mean they can continue the story when the reader puts down the book.
Asking to show feats of effecting someone beyond the concept of death is the same thing. You don't need feats of effecting someone beyond the concept of death to BFR them, and you do not need feats of effecting someone beyond causality for plot manipulation to work.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Strength has nothing to do with causality relation.
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A plot is the series of events making up a story, which is a set that is blatantly tied to causality. If it were to not be tied to that concept, then there should be no series of events, one following the other. Khorne can have effects happen with no cause, create causes with no effect, acting entirely outside this linear relationship. "Meta" whatever does not suddenly cause the ability to manipulate plots to supercede and transcend the entire verse all of a sudden.
Also, it has already been the precedent for a while that an extreme enough resistance to fate and/or reality warping is sufficient to deny plothax, because the effects actually being resisted are more important than the esoteric way in which they are done.
Also, it has already been the precedent for a while that an extreme enough resistance to fate and/or reality warping is sufficient to deny plothax, because the effects actually being resisted are more important than the esoteric way in which they are done.
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I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove that something is above another. That is not the same thing.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's a poor analogy, because if that's what the Providence's ability did and she survived that that should be a completely different tier then. Even if it did, that would assume that the actions taken would have a cause and effect anyway.
Except you do. You can deny it all you want, but at this point it's a Ad Nauseum argument. There is proof that plot prescribes to causality. There is no proof that Providence's ability works any differently.
Yeah. Good thing Khorne doesn't need that.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's a poor analogy, because if that's what the Providence's ability did and she survived that that should be a completely different tier then. Even if it did, that would assume that the actions taken would have a cause and effect anyway.
Except you do. You can deny it all you want, but at this point it's a Ad Nauseum argument. There is proof that plot prescribes to causality. There is no proof that Providence's ability works any differently.
Yeah. Good thing Khorne doesn't need that.
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Yobo Blue
Because plot is by definition "the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence." A sequence of events is directly related to causality. Unless the ability in question is completely different from any sort of sequence and is explained to be so in-Verse, we shouldn't assume they are.
"My friend who knows Warhammer" is about as blatant a appeal to authority as you can get. And while we're at it, no, you cannot "flip it on me" because the ability in question has A. Not shown that it doesn't abide by causality or B. Shown that it can alter the nature of something to the point where it would matter in a fight against a non-Type 5 acasual.
Its semantics, but sequence is not the same as causal order. In the same way that correlation does not equal causation. If you want proof that plot is not derived from order, go read Slaughterhouse 5.
No, me saying that I am not knowledgeable so I went and asked somebody who was is not an appeal to authority. It's me informing people that this info is not from my own knowledge. Again, you cannot ask somebody to prove a negative. That is fallacious. Who mentioned anything about altering the nature of something?
Because plot is by definition "the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence." A sequence of events is directly related to causality. Unless the ability in question is completely different from any sort of sequence and is explained to be so in-Verse, we shouldn't assume they are.
"My friend who knows Warhammer" is about as blatant a appeal to authority as you can get. And while we're at it, no, you cannot "flip it on me" because the ability in question has A. Not shown that it doesn't abide by causality or B. Shown that it can alter the nature of something to the point where it would matter in a fight against a non-Type 5 acasual.
Its semantics, but sequence is not the same as causal order. In the same way that correlation does not equal causation. If you want proof that plot is not derived from order, go read Slaughterhouse 5.
No, me saying that I am not knowledgeable so I went and asked somebody who was is not an appeal to authority. It's me informing people that this info is not from my own knowledge. Again, you cannot ask somebody to prove a negative. That is fallacious. Who mentioned anything about altering the nature of something?
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^^^^^Overlord775 said:
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Most of her abilities could probably get nulled. Her law manipulation is useless for sure. The reason is because Khorne doesn't have the capacity to effect meta powers with his power null, or ar least not as he has shown in warhammer fantasy. She could never put him down, but she can incap with hijackingWokistan said:
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I cannot respond to all of this stuff as it keeps on coming. I'll come back in a few hours and respond to stuff once it is all out here, but this is too chaotic right now
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"Go read Slaughter House 5."
We don't treat plot this way based on one book, we do it based on how it logically works in verses throughout fiction. If the book treats it as being above causality, fine. That's not how we treat it. Bad idea to scale said book to a completely unrelated video game.
It can certainly sound like a appeal to authority, especially when anyone can say that about any example of the latter. We are not asking you to prove a negative.
I asked, and it's a important question to, as Kharn works functionally completely different from anyone she has ever fought.
We don't treat plot this way based on one book, we do it based on how it logically works in verses throughout fiction. If the book treats it as being above causality, fine. That's not how we treat it. Bad idea to scale said book to a completely unrelated video game.
It can certainly sound like a appeal to authority, especially when anyone can say that about any example of the latter. We are not asking you to prove a negative.
I asked, and it's a important question to, as Kharn works functionally completely different from anyone she has ever fought.
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Most of her abilities could probably get nulled. Her law manipulation is useless for sure. The reason is because Khorne doesn't have the capacity to effect meta powers with his power null, or ar least not as he has shown in warhammer fantasy. She could never put him down, but she can incap with hijacking
She would know it's a fight by SBA, but other then that she's fighting a concept. Not much she can do without feats of doing that previously.
She would know it's a fight by SBA, but other then that she's fighting a concept. Not much she can do without feats of doing that previously.
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wank is real. doubt providencee could even handle my boi arceus. khorne is overkill.
ill make a thread tbh.
ill make a thread tbh.
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Molecule Ma is no longer 10-B.
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I'm probably just gonna make a thread on things people assume are related but aren't. Such as people assuming that because a character can effect a non-corporeal character they can effect a non-existent one, or this current situation. I'll link it once it is made, and many of the issues here will be addressed. You can expect it either later today or tomorrow, depending on what else I have going on.
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What if you have a body, but don't exist?
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Law, Causality and Plot work on a Non existent?
